(Topic ID: 43458)

System 11 Club !

By mof

11 years ago


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#4101 1 year ago
Quoted from idealjoker:

I am using SWI to execute a single instruction of a "new" virtual machine, which I call the IVM. The IVM uses the WVM (Sys 11 Pinbol) interpreter as a "plug-in", so all the useful WVM instructions are available in-line (setBits, killThreads, exitThread, etc.). This alone saves tons of space in Bad Cats. In the IVM I reuse some of the WVM opcodes that are not useful as "one shots"; for example, opcode $01 (noOperation in WVM) starts WVM mode. I added new system calls, including display_str16 which you can use both in WVM_mode and as one shots. Finally, I added M6800 extension opcodes, such as PSHX, PULX, AAX, A2BX, etc. I have not yet implemented any string compression but I am pretty sure that I will at some stage. Eventually I would like to make this available to other interested parties.
What I like best about the IVM is that it is "boot-strappable": The first stage is a patch to the original WVM interpreter that adds one-shot capability while making the code 1-byte smaller. Therefore I can add the IVM to a game with zero bytes of free ROM. The space I get with the first stage is sufficient to implement the 2nd, etc.

This is similar to the Stern mpu200 virtual machine, it starts by default as a one shot and you have to tell it to switch to multiple mode - very handy to do the one function you need, and sets the condition accordingly for the 6800 to react to. I hadn't actually thought about adding those pshx/pulx etc type 6803/6809 functionality to it but that makes sense as all over the place system 11 does an inline assembly command to do exactly those types of functions. I know pinbol was made to be extensible, but then they went ahead and used all of the opcodes available.

I would be interested to see how much your method saves in Rollergames, as the pinbol in that game is a lot sparser than earlier games where it was used heavily.

I also think there's some savings to be had in the comparison functions that use $F2 'force' a little excessively; the way I understood it is that the $f2 prefix is only required is you are using a comparison literal that starts with $Fx, so that the interpreter forces it to load it as a literal value instead of another comparison on the stack. I haven't tested that idea out yet though.

For what you're doing in TCM with the different rulesets that one-shot capability is essential for sure. I'll have to get around to applying the latest patches you sent to the beta testers and look at it closer. I guess you make the jsr pnbolstart into the swi and anywhere you need the WVM mode you are doing swi,$01 instead of jsr xxxx, saving 1 byte off every call. Nice that you get all your registers for free there as well if needed.

#4102 1 year ago
Quoted from idealjoker:

I am using SWI to execute a single instruction of a "new" virtual machine, which I call the IVM. The IVM uses the WVM (Sys 11 Pinbol) interpreter as a "plug-in", so all the useful WVM instructions are available in-line (setBits, killThreads, exitThread, etc.). This alone saves tons of space in Bad Cats. In the IVM I reuse some of the WVM opcodes that are not useful as "one shots"; for example, opcode $01 (noOperation in WVM) starts WVM mode. I added new system calls, including display_str16 which you can use both in WVM_mode and as one shots. Finally, I added M6800 extension opcodes, such as PSHX, PULX, AAX, A2BX, etc. I have not yet implemented any string compression but I am pretty sure that I will at some stage. Eventually I would like to make this available to other interested parties.
What I like best about the IVM is that it is "boot-strappable": The first stage is a patch to the original WVM interpreter that adds one-shot capability while making the code 1-byte smaller. Therefore I can add the IVM to a game with zero bytes of free ROM. The space I get with the first stage is sufficient to implement the 2nd, etc.

I don’t quite understand all of this, but would love to know more. What is the SWI and WVM? What is the purpose of the IVM you created? What do you mean by Virtual Machine? I am very familiar with VMs in terms of computing, but not in terms of pinball. What is the purpose of doing all of this; to make it extensible and easier for other game software to be modified as well?

#4103 1 year ago
Quoted from interconnect:

I don’t quite understand all of this, but would love to know more. What is the SWI and WVM? What is the purpose of the IVM you created? What do you mean by Virtual Machine? I am very familiar with VMs in terms of computing, but not in terms of pinball. What is the purpose of doing all of this; to make it extensible and easier for other game software to be modified as well?

SWI = software interrupt. This is a standard 6800 processor instruction.
WVM (presumably) = Williams virtual machine.

Be careful here. The term "virtual machine" is overloaded.

<disclaimer>The following is my understanding. I have no experience with the modern implementation of virtual machines. I also have no experience with the Williams System 3-11 software other than an occasional glance at the initialization code. The guts of the code is complicated.</disclaimer>

In the early days of computing (software), a virtual machine was typically an instruction set architecture (ISA) that did not physically exist. The "instructions" were executed by software. Think Java Virtual Machine. There is no actual processor (hardware) that executes the JVM opcodes. Another example of this meaning of virtual machine is the UCSD Pascal bytecode (aka pcode). Another more modern example is Microsoft's CLR managed runtime. Java and the CLR are good examples of "write once and debug everywhere". Typically these virtual machines are interpreted on an instruction by instruction basis but more modern virtual machines compile the intermediate (bytecode) to native instructions either on demand (JIT = just in time) or pre-compiled (at software installation).

The more modern usage of the term "virtual machine" is used to describe a hardware implementation that separates physical memory layout and provides boundaries to allow multiple separate instances of different operating systems to execute on a single hardware computing device. A crude example of this is if you have 32GB of physical memory, you can allocate 16GB to one "virtual machine" and 16GB to another "virtual machine". This allows you to run a Windows operating system concurrently with a Linux operating system. They are two separate entities and can share the hardware available on the machine. The arbiter of the hardware is typically a "hypervisor". Often these operating systems have virtual device drivers that communicate with the actual hardware device driver. The hypervisor programs the memory management of the processor so that it strictly adheres to the compartmentalization required for security reasons. In Intel parlance, user code executes at ring 3, supervisor code executes at ring 0 and hypervisor code executes at ring -1.

Back to your question. The WVM is a bytecode interpreter. These interpreters usually execute bytecode until an "escape" code is encountered. These opcodes cause the bytecode to return back to the native code. Presumably this IVM executes a single bytecode and then returns to native code rather than require an escape code. Normally, these interpreters are entered with a "call" or "jsr" instruction. These are often two or three byte opcodes. It is possible to reduce this by using the SWI vector. The SWI instruction is a single byte. This can save one or two bytes when entering the bytecode interpreter. Apple used this mechanism in their old MacOS operating systems with the A-traps. Microsoft used a similar scheme with "INT 2E". These instructions generate an interrupt (SWI = software interrupt) and the processor will divert execution to a defined vector. The code at this vector executes the required task. Typically, it generates a trap frame (context), executes what it needs to and then restores the context from the trap frame. In simpler processors, this is typically the RTI (return from interrupt) instruction.

#4104 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

SWI = software interrupt. This is a standard 6800 processor instruction.
WVM (presumably) = Williams virtual machine.
Be careful here. The term "virtual machine" is overloaded.
<disclaimer>The following is my understanding. I have no experience with the modern implementation of virtual machines. I also have no experience with the Williams System 3-11 software other than an occasional glance at the initialization code. The guts of the code is complicated.</disclaimer>
In the early days of computing (software), a virtual machine was typically an instruction set architecture (ISA) that did not physically exist. The "instructions" were executed by software. Think Java Virtual Machine. There is no actual processor (hardware) that executes the JVM opcodes. Another example of this meaning of virtual machine is the UCSD Pascal bytecode (aka pcode). Another more modern example is Microsoft's CLR managed runtime. Java and the CLR are good examples of "write once and debug everywhere". Typically these virtual machines are interpreted on an instruction by instruction basis but more modern virtual machines compile the intermediate (bytecode) to native instructions either on demand (JIT = just in time) or pre-compiled (at software installation).
The more modern usage of the term "virtual machine" is used to describe a hardware implementation that separates physical memory layout and provides boundaries to allow multiple separate instances of different operating systems to execute on a single hardware computing device. A crude example of this is if you have 32GB of physical memory, you can allocate 16GB to one "virtual machine" and 16GB to another "virtual machine". This allows you to run a Windows operating system concurrently with a Linux operating system. They are two separate entities and can share the hardware available on the machine. The arbiter of the hardware is typically a "hypervisor". Often these operating systems have virtual device drivers that communicate with the actual hardware device driver. The hypervisor programs the memory management of the processor so that it strictly adheres to the compartmentalization required for security reasons. In Intel parlance, user code executes at ring 3, supervisor code executes at ring 0 and hypervisor code executes at ring -1.
Back to your question. The WVM is a bytecode interpreter. These interpreters usually execute bytecode until an "escape" code is encountered. These opcodes cause the bytecode to return back to the native code. Presumably this IVM executes a single bytecode and then returns to native code rather than require an escape code. Normally, these interpreters are entered with a "call" or "jsr" instruction. These are often two or three byte opcodes. It is possible to reduce this by using the SWI vector. The SWI instruction is a single byte. This can save one or two bytes when entering the bytecode interpreter. Apple used this mechanism in their old MacOS operating systems with the A-traps. Microsoft used a similar scheme with "INT 2E". These instructions generate an interrupt (SWI = software interrupt) and the processor will divert execution to a defined vector. The code at this vector executes the required task. Typically, it generates a trap frame (context), executes what it needs to and then restores the context from the trap frame. In simpler processors, this is typically the RTI (return from interrupt) instruction.

Awesome; truly fascinating. Thanks for all the information. So I presume this work is to save space to add additional code then.

#4105 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I also have no experience with the Williams System 3-11 software other than an occasional glance at the initialization code.

Your conclusions based on incomplete information are very impressive --- all of your presumptions are 100% accurate. The "one-shot" method that I am using is not new. I did not know about the Stern VM slochar mentioned, but I have been long familiar with the use of software interrupts for system calls. In this sense, what I have done is simply to make the bytecode operations available as system calls.

Quoted from interconnect:

I don’t quite understand all of this, but would love to know more.

If there is interest we could make a Pinball VM thread. My own experience is limited to Williams System 7 and 11, but slochar has analyzed several others, and there must be other Pinsiders who can contribute.

#4106 1 year ago
Quoted from idealjoker:

Your conclusions based on incomplete information are very impressive --- all of your presumptions are 100% accurate. The "one-shot" method that I am using is not new. I did not know about the Stern VM slochar mentioned, but I have been long familiar with the use of software interrupts for system calls. In this sense, what I have done is simply to make the bytecode operations available as system calls.

If there is interest we could make a Pinball VM thread. My own experience is limited to Williams System 7 and 11, but slochar has analyzed several others, and there must be other Pinsiders who can contribute.

I would certainly join and follow along if others are interested as well. I’m absorbing all of this because I’ve long been wanting to see if I could mod the Space Station software. Not do a whole new game like you’ve done with TCM, but make some minor changes. I especially want to make the Bonus Ball more fun and actually have something to shoot for.

#4107 1 year ago
Quoted from interconnect:

I would certainly join and follow along if others are interested as well. I’m absorbing all of this because I’ve long been wanting to see if I could mod the Space Station software. Not do a whole new game like you’ve done with TCM, but make some minor changes. I especially want to make the Bonus Ball more fun and actually have something to shoot for.

Space Station is so fun. Ive only played it on location and, while I had a great time, I can see the potential for some new coding/rules to enhance it. Good luck.

#4108 1 year ago
Quoted from interconnect:

Not do a whole new game like you’ve done with TCM, but make some minor changes. I especially want to make the Bonus Ball more fun and actually have something to shoot for.

At some point there is a tipover from 'minor change' to 'full blown disassembly'. For me, that comes at a low level, because once you WANT to make the larger changes (or have to, depending on what you are doing) the minor change/patch gets old quick, vs. having the code in shape to just reassemble at will.

What is the current goal of the bonus ball time anyway and how is it earned? I haven't played space station in many years. I think it would cool to have to dock all 3 balls during bonus ball time though to get some kind of reward. Gives you an opportunity to hear the 'redock now' voice over and over.

#4109 1 year ago
Quoted from interconnect:

I’m absorbing all of this because I’ve long been wanting to see if I could mod the Space Station software.

Unfortunately, I don't think that there is very much useful info on the Sys 11 WVM available on-line. However, since the Sys 11 WVM is very similar to the Sys 7 WVM (only a small handfull of the opcodes of the byte-code interpreter changed) the easiest way to learn about the WVM is using the code from a disassembled Sys 7 game. You can get a disassembler for Sys 7 games with config files for seven different Sys 7 games on Jess Askey's game archive (easy to find with google). Jess is on Pinside and at least slochar and I can also answer questions. Once you understand how it works in a Sys 7 game, the Space Station code will be understandable, too. I am happy to share my tools. But you really need to understand the basics of the WVM before you can use my disassembler and compiler.

#4110 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

At some point there is a tipover from 'minor change' to 'full blown disassembly'. For me, that comes at a low level, because once you WANT to make the larger changes (or have to, depending on what you are doing) the minor change/patch gets old quick, vs. having the code in shape to just reassemble at will.
What is the current goal of the bonus ball time anyway and how is it earned? I haven't played space station in many years. I think it would cool to have to dock all 3 balls during bonus ball time though to get some kind of reward. Gives you an opportunity to hear the 'redock now' voice over and over.

The bonus ball is earned from getting either SHUTTLE or STATION and the award is the “50,000 + Bonus Ball”. The bonus ball is a timed extra ball at the end of the game and is 25 seconds, or if you got multi-ball during the game, will be 45 seconds. If the ball drains during the bonus ball, it’s sent back to the plunger.

Aaaaaand, that’s about it. There’s nothing to go for. It’s just a timed extra ball, which isn’t very fun. In the past I have surpassed the replay value (2,000,000 and which I have set to extra ball) during the bonus ball, which is fun when you’re close because you actually have something to try to achieve during the bonus ball. That is rare for me though. Most of time time you’re either not close enough or already over the replay value and there’s basically nothing special to aim for. I thought it’d be cool to maybe enable the extra ball light at the three drops or enable the special on the right standup for something to actually aim for and keep the game going. Just ideas I’ve been tossing around. Could do a lot with it actually. I’m not sure if it’s even possible to enable things that’d only be available on a certain ball / the bonus ball.

#4111 1 year ago
Quoted from interconnect:

I’m not sure if it’s even possible to enable things that’d only be available on a certain ball / the bonus ball.

It totally is.

#4112 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

It totally is.

Oh sweet. Good news then.

#4113 1 year ago
Quoted from idealjoker:

Unfortunately, I don't think that there is very much useful info on the Sys 11 WVM available on-line. However, since the Sys 11 WVM is very similar to the Sys 7 WVM (only a small handfull of the opcodes of the byte-code interpreter changed) the easiest way to learn about the WVM is using the code from a disassembled Sys 7 game. You can get a disassembler for Sys 7 games with config files for seven different Sys 7 games on Jess Askey's game archive (easy to find with google). Jess is on Pinside and at least slochar and I can also answer questions. Once you understand how it works in a Sys 7 game, the Space Station code will be understandable, too. I am happy to share my tools. But you really need to understand the basics of the WVM before you can use my disassembler and compiler.

Thanks for info. I’ll check that out and start learning the basics. Hopefully I’ll get to the point of understanding Sys11 and then go from there.

1 week later
#4114 1 year ago

Hello all, Im helping a friend with his Cyclone and we keep having an issue with the right flipper. Flipper will work as it should for little while, but then starts to feel weak and then blows the fuse in the backbox. Wires were disconnected when he got the machine and Ive checked to make sure it is wired correctly. It also has a Marco blue flipper coil in it with capacitors. Could I have blown something on the board? Thank you for any help

#4115 1 year ago
Quoted from bicyclenut:Hello all, Im helping a friend with his Cyclone and we keep having an issue with the right flipper. Flipper will work as it should for little while, but then starts to feel weak and then blows the fuse in the backbox. Wires were disconnected when he got the machine and Ive checked to make sure it is wired correctly. It also has a Marco blue flipper coil in it with capacitors. Could I have blown something on the board? Thank you for any help

The EOS switch does not have enough pressure closing the contacts. This causes some resistance at the contacts. As you use the flipper the resistance causes heat build up on the leaf blades. This heat softens the leaf blades, causing more resistance and arcing which finally blows the fuse. EOS switches are not preset when new, after installing they need to be adjusted closed and open.

#4116 1 year ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

The EOS switch does not have enough pressure closing the contacts. This causes some resistance at the contacts. As you use the flipper the resistance causes heat build up on the leaf blades. This heat softens the leaf blades, causing more resistance and arcing which finally blows the fuse. EOS switches are not preset when new, after installing they need to be adjusted closed and open.

Thank you sir....I will check this

#4117 1 year ago

Adding another System 11 this weekend if all goes well!!!

you gotta be a "shark" to get the deals!

Chris

#4118 1 year ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Adding another System 11 this weekend if all goes well!!!
you gotta be a "shark" to get the deals!
Chris

Hmmmmmm, let me guess, Pool Sharks????

#4119 1 year ago
Quoted from Bohdi:

Hmmmmmm, let me guess, Pool Sharks????

That's the plan

Chris

#4120 1 year ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

That's the plan
Chris

Downvote for that comment? Geez

#4121 1 year ago
Quoted from Bohdi:

Downvote for that comment? Geez

Not at all, sorry! Not sure what happened there. Fixed!

Chris

#4122 1 year ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Not at all, sorry! Not sure what happened there. Fixed!
Chris

No problemo. Just thought it was a bit out of character to downvote that comment. She all good. Oh, and nice collection of system 11's. Miss my EATPM and TAXI soooo much

#4123 1 year ago

Pool Sharks is home! More pics when it’s in the basement.

Chris

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#4124 1 year ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Pool Sharks is home! More pics when it’s in the basement.
Chris
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Looks good with the new decals. The red is always faded on those.

rd

#4125 1 year ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Looks good with the new decals. The red is always faded on those.
rd

Yeah they look pretty nice. I wish they had taken more care in installing them, but it is what it is

I don't play the cabinet so it's not my priority. The playfield id Diamond Plate and it pretty darn nice. Will get more pics once I have it set up.

Chris

#4126 1 year ago

Set up! Still need to level and slide into place but it’s in the basement! I find this game surprisingly fun.

Need to shop it out and correct a few things but it works and plays well as-is.

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#4127 1 year ago

Sign me up

#4128 1 year ago

Looks good. I've never played it.

Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Set up! Still need to level and slide into place but it’s in the basement! I find this game surprisingly fun.
Need to shop it out and correct a few things but it works and plays well as-is.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

#4129 1 year ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Set up! Still need to level and slide into place but it’s in the basement! I find this game surprisingly fun.
Need to shop it out and correct a few things but it works and plays well as-is.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Beautiful. Love me some System 11.

#4130 1 year ago

My Taxi is blowing the left flipper fuse. When you flip and hold it can be fine, or it can cause a buzz to come from the left speaker. This is a super weird duo. But, if you flip and hold and the speaker is buzzing, it will blow the fuse within a second or so. Anyone ever seen this before?

#4131 1 year ago

I'm having a hell of a time getting through the loctite on my EATPM, already snapped a few posts. Tried heat with a torch and a soldering iron and zero luck. Anyone have any other tips?

#4132 1 year ago
Quoted from dudah:

I'm having a hell of a time getting through the loctite on my EATPM, already snapped a few posts. Tried heat with a torch and a soldering iron and zero luck. Anyone have any other tips?

I remove stuff with Loctite all the time. The key is the heat. You may have to use more than you’d think. My rule is, whatever you think it needs, double it, then you’re getting close, haha. Some different Loctite variations can require well over 500 degrees… so you have to get that thing just pippin’ hot.

Could also try a larger torch (don’t know how big yours is) but sometimes the torch is just too small for the part at hand.

#4133 1 year ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I have some old SOF PAPA rom I got years ago.
I don’t remember the right orbit (ramp?) spotting anything …. maybe I’m wrong. Would have to check it out. Does have fixed JP.
You are always going for locks all day on that game.
After 7 years I took it out of SYS11 World Champs because some games would go on for half an hour … skilful players just go MB MB MB MB all day.
I think a good update (here’s one for ya Scott!) would be to have to requalify the locks after the first MB.
Could be by spelling Avenger …
Maybe a certain amount of spinner spins
Or a certain amount of u-turns around the Ogres Alley
Maybe a certain amount of drop targets up the top …
Something like that.
rd

I had one for 13 years.. If you want to shorten ball times on SOF, you just have to install lighting flippers, remove center post, and remove the upper PF post to widen the gap up there a LOT. Makes the game a lot more fun. 3 million on mine was a lot. Before I made those changes, I rolled it twice, two separate times. I personally think it’s a good game with great artwork and amazing sound. Gameplay is not as good as the art and sound. If it was, I would still have one.

4 weeks later
#4134 1 year ago

I am thrilled to be back at this club again. My 1st system 11 was Bad cats and now it is High speed. Thank you to Rotordave. He helped me to secure a deal and import this pin to N.Z.

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#4135 1 year ago

For the love of crap, please take all of those blue LEDs out of the backbox.

#4136 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinrookie:

I am thrilled to be back at this club again. My 1st system 11 was Bad cats and now it is High speed. Thank you to Rotordave. He helped me to secure a deal and import this pin to N.Z.
[quoted image][quoted image]

I apologise for setting that high score while I was setting it up for you.

Something to aim for.

rd

1 week later
#4137 1 year ago

thoughts about rollergames? seems like a decent game.. but the ratings ae not that high for its price.. someone is offering me one.. and i am thinking about it

#4138 1 year ago
Quoted from derfske:

thoughts about rollergames? seems like a decent game.. but the ratings ae not that high for its price.. someone is offering me one.. and i am thinking about it

Rollergames is great. I love roller derby though and I I specifically liked the show when it was on, and I love the late 80s/early 90s cheese factor.

#4139 1 year ago
Quoted from derfske:

thoughts about rollergames? seems like a decent game.. but the ratings ae not that high for its price.. someone is offering me one.. and i am thinking about it

Rollergames is cheezy and the tune will be stuck in your head for DAYS. Btu I would love to have one. It's a fun and surprisingly fast machine. Just don' texpect much depth to it, like most system 11 machines.

Chris

#4140 1 year ago
Quoted from derfske:

thoughts about rollergames? seems like a decent game.. but the ratings ae not that high for its price.. someone is offering me one.. and i am thinking about it

The truth? It’s actually the sequel to High Speed and the theme was forced upon the design team. If you like High Speed or Getaway, you will probably like Rollergames.

#4141 1 year ago
Quoted from derfske:

thoughts about rollergames? seems like a decent game.. but the ratings ae not that high for its price.. someone is offering me one.. and i am thinking about it

If you can buy it right, it's like any other pin. Go ahead, enjoy it for a while and move on.
Personally i wouldn't pay up for it. I wouldn't even go to the low end of the pinside average.

#4142 1 year ago
Quoted from derfske:

thoughts about rollergames?

  • Very fun 3-ball multiball. (Unlike many other 3-ball multiballs without autoplunger, IMO.)
  • Upper flipper that is important to use.
  • Ramp with three different exits (diverters).
  • Fun magnet for guaranteed ramp-shots.
  • Progressive difficulty (starts easy, gets harder).
  • Not a drain monster.
  • Catchy music.
  • Awesome Jackpot tune (kicks butt).
  • Two-stage outlane saver (fun to watch, especially when it does not go according to plan)
  • Habitrail loop for locked balls (to distract the player)
  • Lost of software choice (two home ROMs in addition to stock)
  • Good difficulty level (not too easy, not too hard)
  • Variety of goals (MB, teams, combo shots, WILLIAMS count-down, Sudden Death mode)
  • Excellent playfield design (very different in my small collection)

Most importantly, I can rarely leave the machine when it's time for me to do so. I bought mine before ever playing a game, because of word-of-mouth and because I like Sys 11 games. The diamond plate playfield (not all of them have that) and a fair price made this a no-brainer in my case. I am very happy with this game.

#4143 1 year ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

The truth? It’s actually the sequel to High Speed and the theme was forced upon the design team. If you like High Speed or Getaway, you will probably like Rollergames.

serious?? well looking at it.. its does makes allot of sense.. the loop looks indeed like the main attraction

#4144 1 year ago

Yeye thanks all you guys. I bought it..

The mark ritchie table was happy to see his brother rollergames from Steve

please dont judge the room... got the house not so long. XD going to get a big dormer and make it a nice game room.. why the dormer: so more pinballs will fit

20230627_212115 (resized).jpg20230627_212115 (resized).jpg

#4145 1 year ago

Pinball is one of things where everyone has a different opinion on a particular machine. You almost have to find the machine and play it to see if it suits your style. I mean Bugs Bunny is not well regarded in the rankings, but you'll find people who like it.

#4146 1 year ago
Quoted from Ryguy80:

Pinball is one of things where everyone has a different opinion on a particular machine. You almost have to find the machine and play it to see if it suits your style. I mean Bugs Bunny is not well regarded in the rankings, but you'll find people who like it.

You cannot take the top 100 serious .
Rollergames vs high speed topic. Votes 51% rollergames 49% high speed

In the top 100 rollergames is spot 170 somewhere and high speed in the top 100

It's how people judge it.. for a 1986 game it's crazy good.. and that's true.. but comparing it with any dmd in the top 100 it will lose..

What you say is also true.. seen reviews and topics where people say I love shaq attack. And mario andretti.

I also like my road kings. It's hard to get multi ball and harder to get timelock during multiball. And keeping 2 balls alive is quite hard.but very fun.
If someone played roadkings and drained 5 times his multi ball and he thinks it allready cost my 5 dollar.. no way.
And he types the review.. yes ofcourse there is not much to do.. such a ball drainer etc etc etc

It's good to look at why those who like it, what they like about it.
Reading the comment above.. its indeed an high-speed 1.5 for me .. and I like it

#4147 1 year ago
Quoted from Ryguy80:

Pinball is one of things where everyone has a different opinion on a particular machine. You almost have to find the machine and play it to see if it suits your style. I mean Bugs Bunny is not well regarded in the rankings, but you'll find people who like it.

I have a prototype Bugs Bunny.
I like it, but my kids love it. Probably because somehow my 5 year old hit the jackpot in 2 different games propelling him to the #1 and #2 spots on the high score list.
It's a decent game, but the thing i like most are the art and the sounds. Very friendly game for non pinball players.

Derfske, the rankings are truly a disaster for all pins.
Any time you mix different generations of people and different era's (of anything), it's bound to get messy.
My biggest gripe is that when a new stern comes out people rank them up to the top. Personally i think 90% feel like exactly the same game with a different theme. What's worse is after 6 months on the market all these people that rated their games in the top 10 have it for sale. If it's so great why are you selling it already?

If you want to talk system 11, grand lizard is ahead of 100 games that are better than it (including roller games). How is that possible?
I could almost file it under the worst system 11 i've ever played.

#4148 1 year ago
Quoted from jcar302:

If you want to talk system 11, grand lizard is ahead of 100 games that are better than it (including roller games). How is that possible?
I could almost file it under the worst system 11 i've ever played.

To each their own. I really like Grand Lizard! I've only played it a few times, but it was a stand-out.

#4149 1 year ago
Quoted from kyle5574:

To each their own. I really like Grand Lizard! I've only played it a few times, but it was a stand-out.

I don't think there is anything wrong with liking or preferring a game but here is the list of system 11's grand lizard beats according to the ratings:
Mousin
Space Station
Cyclone
Bad Cats
f14
Dr Dude
Fire
Jokerz
Big Guns
Police Force
Game show
Pool Sharks
Bugs Bunny
Millionaire
Road kings

I've had almost all of those and have had extensive access to all of them. It beats one or two on that list that's about it.
If you go back a few years nobody wanted grand lizard you would almost have to give it away.
Then i guess because of low production numbers it became a little bit of a trophy.
I'm not criticizing the fact that you enjoy it, but there is no way it's better than that entire list.

#4150 1 year ago
Quoted from jcar302:

I have a prototype Bugs Bunny.
I like it, but my kids love it. Probably because somehow my 5 year old hit the jackpot in 2 different games propelling him to the #1 and #2 spots on the high score list.
It's a decent game, but the thing i like most are the art and the sounds. Very friendly game for non pinball players.
Derfske, the rankings are truly a disaster for all pins.
Any time you mix different generations of people and different era's (of anything), it's bound to get messy.
My biggest gripe is that when a new stern comes out people rank them up to the top. Personally i think 90% feel like exactly the same game with a different theme. What's worse is after 6 months on the market all these people that rated their games in the top 10 have it for sale. If it's so great why are you selling it already?
If you want to talk system 11, grand lizard is ahead of 100 games that are better than it (including roller games). How is that possible?
I could almost file it under the worst system 11 i've ever played.

Fish Tales, Theater of Magic and Tales of the Arabian Nights are all in this so called “Top 100 list”.

That’s the only fact I need to immediately consider it nonsense. All 3 of those games are absolute pieces of fucking shit.

Your strongly held pinball opinions don’t really mean much. Don’t take them too seriously.

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