Thanks for the help!! The old coils were good, switches clean and with the only addition of subbing in the fl11630 the feel is noticibly snappier with more power on the ball. Any idea why? Coil strength should be the same?!

New sleeves and EOS switch will make a big improvement. Just adjusting the EOS switch correctly can make a big difference.

Just picked up a Top Dawg Sys 11 bowler? Can I be in the club?

On my way to becoming a Millionaire!

Owner.

I believe the BRs are good. I have it now narrowed down to perhaps the ground on the special solenoids. When I look at the manual, everything that isn't working is listed as special solenoids 17-22 (and the flippers). There is voltage at the flipper coils, and I can fire the right dock kickback by grounding the transistor on the MPU. The MPU board was sent for repairs and tested there, so I am hoping that is not the issue (but can't be sure).

I am not sure where to go next. Thoughts?

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What is the board number on the cpu?

The specials and flippers all come back to the CPU board through the same connector. What's 1J19 look like?

Do you mean system b board?

Don't think it is wiring issue. I can fire the solenoids if I ground the transistor on the mpu. For example if I ground q73, it fires the right pop bumper. To me,
that would eliminate the mpu connectjons/wiring and the auxiliary board connections.

Am I correct in this?

Where do I go next? What should I be testing next, something on the mpu? What causes the mpu to send the signal to open ground for the solenoids?

Sometimes a different board is used in a machine that it was not intended for. So if you can post a pic of the board or the serial number I can let you know if this is a board that works or not. If this is a compatible board then there's a problem on the board for the SS solenoid enable circuit. No sense starting to troubleshoot when it can also be a simple compatibility problem.

Here are some photos. The place that serviced the board said they tested it in a shop Space Station.

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Is it just me or is there still a good deal of worrisome corrosion on that board?

There was some battery damage when I got it. Tried to clean it up the best I could.

Correct, grounding the tab on Q73 tests that there's a path from the coil through the connector to the collector of Q73.

It does not test 1J18 which is where the switches for the specials come back from the playfield.

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The other side of the circuit for that solenoid is U41 (pin 19) to U49 to U45 to Q72 to Q73.

I'd start with U45.

I'd check the voltage on pins 1 2 and 3.

In attract mode 2 and 3 should be high, 1 should be low.

Close the switch on the on the pop and pin 2 should go low which shows that 1J18 is ok for that solenoid.

Go in to diagnostics and the flippers should enable (do you hear the click?), pin 3 should go low.

Close the switch on the pop again and pin 2 should go low and pin 1 go high.

This is a correct version board for the pin.

I would check the output of U-56 pin 6 after starting a game. If you are using a logic probe it will be a low. If you are using a DMM it should read 0.8 volts and lower.

OK, so I check u45. As you say, in attract mode:

pin 1 - low
pin 2 - high
pin 3 - high

When I close the switch to the pop bumper by pressing the switch with my finger from the top of the playfield, no change.

When I go into diagnostics, no noise from flipper and no change to state of pins 1-3 when I close switch again.

Next?

Pin 6 starts high and does not go low when a game is started. Using a logic probe.

The noise isn't the flipper, it's the flipper enable relay. It should click when you enter diagnostics (or adjustments or start a game). If it doesn't something beyond my ability to help is wrong.

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You can see pin 6 on U56 that grumpy got you to probe middle left. It's connected to pin 3 of U45 that I was asking about.

K1 is the flipper enable relay. You can see that if U56 pin 6 is high, u50 pin 10 will be low, so Q67 is off and therefore K1 is off.

I'd keep following that path down.

When in diagnostic/game what these read?
U56 pin 5
U50 pin 11, 12 & 13

This is your problem, now with a game started check U-50 pins 11,12 and 13.

U56 pin 5 - low
U50 pin 11, 12 & 13 - all low, but did have problems getting readings. I may have to clean these a bit or see if there is corrosion.

All low. But as I said in the other post, I was having troubles getting readings from the pins. I also noticed that once when I was trying to get a reading, the probe slipped and crossed pins 11 and 12. When that happened, I could hear K1 click. So, I am thinking from that that K1 is likely not the issue?

Any next steps guys? Trying to follow the schematics, but still learning.

I have some parts to rebuild the power supply on order, capacitors, etc. The voltages read fine on the test points, but thought this would be preventative maintenance. Any chance the issues are power related, or are we thinking chips on the board, keeping in mind that I was told the mpu was tested on a space machine before being sent back to me.

Thanks.

U-50 pin 11 is the game enable signal and when you start a game it will go from a high to a low. Pin 12 is the blanking signal and when the CPU is booted correctly this will be a low at this point. U-50 is a NOR chip, if both inputs (pin 11,12) are lows the output pin 13 will be a high. You said you have lows at all 3 pins, but you also said if you short pins 11 and 12 together that K-1 clicks. This would sound like you have a poor connection on one of the input pins. I would take a jumper connected to ground and with a game started touch said jumper to pin 11 and then pin 12 of U-50. If there is any change in K-1 relay then you have found where your problem lies. You have said there has been corrosion in the past and this is most likely your problem now. Also if you have a chip socket installed at U-50 it may have a cold solder joint on one of the pins.

OK, we are definitely getting somewhere. I reflowed the pins on U50. When a game is started, pins 10 and 12 of u50 are low. Pin 11 I cannot get reading from.

When I keep ground on pin 11, the flippers, pop bumpers, etc all work. That's the good news.

The bad news is that while doing that I may have fried Q75 and / or Q74, as smoke came out of that area. Obviously crossed pins or something. That area around that transistor was already blackened, so it must have burned in the past as well. Not sure if that is related to my issues or not.

Obviously I will replace Q74 and 75. Should I just replace U50, or do we think the issue is elsewhere?

Thanks in advance.

Either U-50 is bad or U-10 is bad. You can cut pin 11 in half and test each side to know for sure.

This is good but it sounds like your SS #1 has a problem and will need to be troubleshot as soon as you get pin 11 of U-50 sorted out.

Got a question on a local pinball group that I'm curious what Pinside System 11 crew thinks the answer to is. Someone looking to get into pins and wondering what the cheapest System 11s would be to start with. I ended up with a two tiered list of what I'd consider the bottom of the pile in terms of valuation for Sys11 titles. My price ballparks are based on the pretty hot market in the PNW, but I think the relative ranking of titles is probably accurate to other regions too.

Bottom tier (found a few times a year for under a grand for a player's condition table in working order): Jokerz, Millionaire, or Road Kings
One step up (bit over a thousand for player's condition in decent shape, probably needing a thing or two fixed): Big Guns, F-14, Grand Lizard, or Game Show

I haven’t seen Jokerz! for under a grand in a while. I could be wrong. I’ve seen several cheap pool sharks as well

There was a project Jokerz on CL near here with display issues recently for $850, if I remember correctly.
Millionaire is the one that seems to get no love.

I replaced U-49 and U-50.

Now when I test U-50 with a game started I have the following:
- pin 10 and 12 are low
- no reading from pin 11
- when i ground pin 11, K-1 clicks

Not sure what you mean by cutting pin 11 in half. I would expect it doesn't matter since I replaced U-50 now.

Are you still thinking U-10 may be bad?

And am i reading the schematics correctly that pin 11 of U-50 is fed by pin 19 of U-10?

Correct. U50 pin 11 should be connected to U10 pin 19.

Maybe, check for continuity between U-10 pin 19 and U-50 pin 11. If continuity is good then U-10 is most likely bad.

Was thinking the same. Just before slipping out to work I checked for continuity between the two with the board still in the backbox. No continuity.

Turned game on and checked pin 19 of U-10 and is showing low. Is that what it should be?

I will have to pull the board out and check what the continuity issue is. If the trace is damaged, what is the best method to repair? I know you could run a wire between the two, but is that the best method? Hate to get into the hacks too much.

Post some pics of the front and back of the board. I don't like to add wires unless necessary.

I will likely have to take another one from the front, more glare than I thought.

I was trying to run some continuity tests, and I can't tell where the trace from pin 19 of U-10 exits the chip. Seems like it is under the chip where it enters pin 19.

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Where is a good place to hook up to get 12vdc? Adding EL wire to my Dr. Dude.
thx

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U-10 does not have a socket so I wouldn't worry about it. U-50 does have a socket and I would be looking for the trace break somewhere around it.

Got pics of your el wire idea? I'm considering adding a bit to my demoman....

Hey Grumpy, I am at a loss here. I just can't see where the trace for pin 11 of U-50 goes or comes from. I removed the socket to try and see it better, but I don't see on either side a trace going to the pin. I have attached pictures. Any ideas, am I just missing something obvious??

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Your yellow arrow is on pin 4, move straight up to pin 11.

I will as soon as i get it installed. They will be coiled, to embrace the look of the originals.

Correct you are Grumpy, my apologies. So, I had to remove U-49 to see the trace. Once I did I found I had 2 failure points. One a long line with a scratch in the line breaking continuity. The other right at U-49 (see 2 points on picture).

So, I know the 2 issues (thanks again for your patient help). What is the best way to repair? Both are thin traces of course, with one of them going under a chip once I replace U-49 socket. Relatively new to board repair (as you may have guessed).

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The one that is a scratch break can easily be fixed by carefully removing the green solder mask an 1/8 inch on each side of the break. Then take one strand of wire from a piece of wire and lay across the break and solder it in place. Then cover with green nail polish. The other break maybe easier to jump with a wire on the back side of the board.

Making progress for sure. Once the traces were continuous, pin 11 of U-50 started reporting a reading. That brought to life the flippers and slingshots! So, power is now flowing to the special solenoids. What isn't working yet are the pop pumpers and right ball lock. Have to try and trace down what is happening with them, and why they aren't getting power.

Sign me up. I Love System 11 games!

So SS #2, #4 are working now. So what do you get at pin 3 and 6 of U-50 with a game started.

Contrary to the manual, they are all on the same wire, red-white, which is fused by F3. I'd start checking voltages from there.