System 1. Troubleshoot or just buy a board?

(Topic ID: 219112)

System 1. Troubleshoot or just buy a board?


By JVice

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 41 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by JVice
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 4 months ago

Recently bought a Torch from, I think, 1980. Good looking machine, but has plenty of problems. Glitchy display, no coils whatsoever, no sound, and it blows the same fuse all the time. It'll boot up, lights come on, and you can put a ball in play. You can then watch it drain because nothing works. Several of the common System 1 mods, such as the ground mod have already been done. My question is... Should I even bother trying to sort this out, or would I be better off just buying a new Pascal board and seeing what happens?

#2 4 months ago

Sounds like many individual issues. It's booting, so that's good. I'd try to sort them out one at a time

#3 4 months ago

Buy a pascal 4-1 board(not the single boards he sells) and be done with most of your problems.

You may still have to repin the connectors; look at the ones on the bottom of the CPU board and compare them to the others, are they corroded at all, do the spring back to make good contact?

#4 4 months ago

Troubleshooting Original System 1 hardware is very tough without access to a 100% functional game. If you don't own a second, or don't have access to a friends game, I highly recommend going the 4 in 1 Pascal route.

You didn't say if it responds to any switches (adds some score) when you put the ball in play. A system 1 as a reflex after starting a new game, will energize the outhole coil regardless of if it sees a ball sitting there. So, if that's not happening, you certainly have either a solenoid power issue, or driver board and/or interconnect issue. IF the fuse that is blowing is for the solenoid power, than that would explain no reaction on the playfield (pop bumpers and Sling Shot kickers as well as flippers are self controlled. They only need the flipper enable relay to pass them power to work. They don't require interaction with the CPU other than to register score.)

Based on your description, it appears the start button is at least working. This uses a different connector than the switch matrix to the playfield. But both are prone to Battery leakage damage.

#5 4 months ago

So, it does score. The only reason I know is because I can see the display change when I hit switches. The numbers are garbled though. It does also put the ball in play into the shooter lane.

Quoted from CactusJack:

Troubleshooting Original System 1 hardware is very tough without access to a 100% functional game. If you don't own a second, or don't have access to a friends game, I highly recommend going the 4 in 1 Pascal route.
You didn't say if it responds to any switches (adds some score) when you put the ball in play. A system 1 as a reflex after starting a new game, will energize the outhole coil regardless of if it sees a ball sitting there. So, if that's not happening, you certainly have either a solenoid power issue, or driver board and/or interconnect issue. IF the fuse that is blowing is for the solenoid power, than that would explain no reaction on the playfield (pop bumpers and Sling Shot kickers as well as flippers are self controlled. They only need the flipper enable relay to pass them power to work. They don't require interaction with the CPU other than to register score.)
Based on your description, it appears the start button is at least working. This uses a different connector than the switch matrix to the playfield. But both are prone to Battery leakage damage.

#6 4 months ago

It puts the ball into play but you said no coils?

#7 4 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It puts the ball into play but you said no coils?

My apologies.... No flippers, no bumpers, etc. Putting the ball into play seems to be the only one.

#8 4 months ago

I picked up a Genie last year with very similar issues, minus the fuse blowing. Ended up getting the Pascal mpu and it solved everything. Would definitely get the 4 in 1 if you can, but I’m very happy I decided to go that route.

Best of luck with the repair.

#9 4 months ago

Get the board is my advice. It worked for me although I still needed to get a tech expert to repin connectors, etc

#10 4 months ago

I restored a Buck Rogers and went with the Pascal MPU + Niwumpf Driver boards and everything has been very reliable. You do have to repin all connectors, though, absolutely no escape. And that includes Display connectors too.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ycv-gottlieb-buck-rogers-restoration-or-the-infamous-system-1

Yves

#11 4 months ago

Repin? As in put them into new edge connectors?

#12 4 months ago

Here's a video of what it's doing. The ball counter works. After 5 balls drain, it's game over, and pressing the start button gives you a new game, just as it should.

#13 4 months ago

Yes, Repin is the tedious task of extracting each pin one at a time, cutting the wire, and soldering it (or not) after crimping it on a fresh pin. Finally, re-insert the new pin in the plastic connector, making sure it is in the right location.

Very tedious and time consuming but the only way that your game will become bullet proof. And those Gottlieb System 1 games, once correctly fixed are truly Bullet proof because they are relatively simple.

Yves

#14 4 months ago

Your displays are behaving erratically, you have no sound and no proper scoring.

Read my restoration thread and go down the same route. Start with the power supply and walk down the line all the way to the MPU board.
I know that the Janin board is expensive but it is worth every penny and will give you extra features that were never available on the original.

Good luck.
Yves

#15 4 months ago

I was already reading it

#16 4 months ago

I already knew a repin was coming. I suppose the old edge connectors wore out and at some point, a PO got the idea to just solder directly to the circuit board.

#17 4 months ago
Quoted from JVice:

I already knew a repin was coming. I suppose the old edge connectors wore out and at some point, a PO got the idea to just solder directly to the circuit board.

Don't do that, and don't replace the plastic connectors themselves (they're not all readily available anymore). Just the pins. Giant pain not helped whether getting a new board or not.

#18 4 months ago

I wouldn't ever do that, but it had already been done by someone prior to me. That means I'm going to have to clean the solder off those wires before I can repin. Not all of them, but maybe half of the connectors on the main board are now soldered on. Ugh.

#19 4 months ago

Actually, I don't know why I said "half." I meant almost all.

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#20 4 months ago

Yikes!

That would make me attempt to do everything possible to get the game going by using the original board.

#21 4 months ago

I have some other weird stuff going on. Some of the power supply voltages check out ok, and some are wayyyy out of whack. On the power supply board, A2-P1 Pins 6 and 7 should be 69 VAC. I get 50 and 20 respectively. On A2-P3, the voltages on pins 1 and 3 are unreadable. They fluctuate wildly. This sounds like something I should look into before ordering a new board.

#22 4 months ago
Quoted from JVice:

A2-P1 Pins 6 and 7 should be 69 VAC. I get 50 and 20 respectively

It should be 69VAC between the two pins. You can't have separate readings.

Quoted from JVice:

On A2-P3, the voltages on pins 1 and 3 are unreadable. They fluctuate wildly.

Are you using A2P3-5 as your ground?

#23 4 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It should be 69VAC between the two pins. You can't have separate readings.

Are you using A2P3-5 as your ground?

I was not checking between pins A2 6 and 7. I was checking each separately relative to ground, and that's wrong. It clearly says "return" in the troubleshooting guide and I missed it. When checking across those 2, I get 75 VAC. A tad high, no? With regard to A2P3, I was not using pin 5 as the ground. Again, user error. I was basically skipping the regulator. Those pins now check fine. A2P2 6 should be -12 but is -12.3. Slightly out of spec, but I doubt it's causing my problems.

#24 4 months ago
Quoted from JVice:

I get 75 VAC. A tad high, no?

Probably fine, especially if you tested with the connector removed. The displays will pull it down a bit. PSU sounds fine, although it could probably use a re-capping.

#26 4 months ago

I was almost hoping it was trashed, just so I could skip all this and buy a board. But no.... Now I have to go further down the rabbit hole.

#27 4 months ago

this must be the one that just sold on ebay in Marietta GA

#28 4 months ago
Quoted from plowpusher:

this must be the one that just sold on ebay in Marietta GA

That would be the one. The eBay ad said that the flippers and bumpers were working. When I got it home and plugged it up, no such luck. I knew to had issues though, like the sound and the display.

#30 4 months ago
Quoted from plowpusher:

this must be the one that just sold on ebay in Marietta GA

were you bidding on it or something?

#31 4 months ago
Quoted from JVice:

were you bidding on it or something?

i was in Atlanta over the weekend so i did put a few bids on it but ended up getting the Torch at the SPGE , mine has some play field wear and more cab fade but very nice back glass with new cpu board .

#32 4 months ago

It ended up going right at my max. I had pretty much forgotten about even bidding on it.

#33 4 months ago

This is a video I made a while back. It's specifically for repinning of edge connectors on a system 1 machine. I tried to go in as much detail as possible. There are also a lot of links to tools and parts for the project in the discription. Hope it helps

#34 4 months ago

I actually already own that same crimper. I make tons of audio cables and I've used that to crimp the pins on db25 connectors.

#35 4 months ago

So, long story short, since I'm going to be spending hours repinning, I'm just going to get the combo board. I think it'll be worth the time savings of troubleshooting.

#36 4 months ago

Dont forget the add on sound board for the all in one .

#37 4 months ago

I was under the impression that it wasn't required to get the other sound board. Am I wrong on that one?

#38 4 months ago

torch used the advanced sound board and as i recall the sound wasn't working

http://www.flippp.fr/pifxx4.php

1 week later
#39 3 months ago

I'm working on repinning my connectors to hook up to the new Pascal board. I've found pinout diagrams for J7 and J6. I can't find any for J2 or J3 however. The old connectors are soldered on, and while they've all matched the correct pinout so far, I'd like to verify against a real one. Does anyone have it?

20180627_132834 (resized).jpg
#40 3 months ago

Just a quick thanks to those who helped me out here. I went with the Pascal board and it's amazing. A couple of odd things are still going on. the 2,000 and 4,000 bonus lights don't come on, even though the bulbs are good. All in all, just minor annoyances. The hours I saved by just replacing those boards are certainly worth it.

#41 3 months ago

I don't have a pinout diagram but maybe you can verify against these pics.

IMG_20180628_181249 (resized).jpgIMG_20180628_181305 (resized).jpg
#42 3 months ago
Quoted from Pk98:

I don't have a pinout diagram but maybe you can verify against these pics.

I found a site online that had a schematic with the wires labelled according to Gottlieb's three digit code system. Just a minor bit of translation gave me the correct combination. BTW, does anyone on this thread need a PSU board? I have the sound board too. The PSU board tested good, but I don't need it anymore. In the interest of karma, I can probably let them go for shipping costs. The sound board, I honestly have no idea if it's good or not.

#43 3 months ago

the boards are spoken for. Thanks!

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