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(Topic ID: 243282)

System 1 Roller Disco random scoring


By Pinwalk

1 year ago



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  • 41 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by robertmee
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#1 1 year ago

Have a Gottlieb Roller Disco Wide Body. System 1 with new driver board and power supply by RottenDog. CPU replaced with Pascal PI-1. Worked fine until we moved it 20 miles to its new home. Now if machine is nudged, random scoring of 10 points up to couple of hundred points (in 10 pt increments) will occur. Sometimes you get a chime (electronic sound generator replaced with re-built chime unit), sometimes you don't.
Have visually checked all switches and tested them while machine on, nothing seemed out of the ordinary.
I am a novice. The guy I bought the machine from has been more than helpful! He rebuilt the pin, and has spend hours trying to figure out what the issue is. At one point, he cut a wire to a switch, and that stopped the random scoring, but also stopped some normal scoring (and chimes).
So he reconnected it, and problem returned. Any suggestions on how to find the offending switch or what else might be the problem?

Pics below, one a close up of talked about wire (blue terminal), second a pic of entire board with close up pic area circled.

Also, pop bumpers function but don't sound chimes or score points. I have read they should score 100 points per 'pop'....

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#2 1 year ago

This is likely an easy fix. If it isn't a misaligned 10 point switch it will be a diode failure on one of your diode boards. See the 3 little boards on the bottom of your last photo that have nothing but diodes on them? Turn off the game and set your multimeter to diode test and test each diode one at a time. Put the mm leads on each side of each diode and the swap the leads. They should all show the same results. If they don't, you have a bad one that needs replaced.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

swap the leads. They should all all show the same results.

For clarity, the reading should change when you swap the leads. The different diodes should match one another.
DuckDuckGo for more info: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+test+a+diode+with+a+multimeter&t=h_&ia=web

#4 1 year ago

forgot to mention, when I ran a test/diagnostic of c-10 c-100 and c-1000, the c-10 did not chime, the other two did.

#5 1 year ago

Are you saying your game has an old school chime box? Is that by choice or because the original sound card failed? My guess is it failed and this was the only fix available at the time. Times have changed. That sound card is being made again. I recommend you snag one. Here is the link:

https://www.flippp.fr/pifx.php

I own this game so I'm very familiar with it. Please upload a photo of your boards and a shot of this chime box. We'll get this sorted out.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Are you saying your game has an old school chime box? Is that by choice or because the original sound card failed? My guess is it failed and this was the only fix available at the time. Times have changed. That sound card is being made again. I recommend you snag one. Here is the link:
https://www.flippp.fr/pifx.php
I own this game so I'm very familiar with it. Please upload a photo of your boards and a shot of this chime box. We'll get this sorted out.

Thanks, once I get the random scoring fixed, I'll look at that. May end up keeping the chimes, at least for now, because my 2yo granddaughter loves the game, and walks around saying "ding ding ding ding", imitating the chimes.....brings a smile to my face everytime I hear it!

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

This is likely an easy fix. If it isn't a misaligned 10 point switch it will be a diode failure on one of your diode boards. See the 3 little boards on the bottom of your last photo that have nothing but diodes on them? Turn off the game and set your multimeter to diode test and test each diode one at a time. Put the mm leads on each side of each diode and the swap the leads. They should all show the same results. If they don't, you have a bad one that needs replaced.

Thanks for that! I followed your suggestion, and have good news and bad news. Good news, found one diode that was bad (no reading), and replaced it. Bad news, game still scores randomly, and its a lot of scoring, more than before, 50 to 80 points at a time in 10 pt increments, some times I get the 10 pt chime with the random scoring. All I have to do is hit the flipper button(s), and the random scoring begins. Also, see picture, the two areas highlighted I thought were 10 point scores do not score at all. Any other suggestions very welcomed!!

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#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinwalk:

Thanks for that! I followed your suggestion, and have good news and bad news. Good news, found one diode that was bad (no reading), and replaced it. Bad news, game still scores randomly, and its a lot of scoring, more than before, 50 to 80 points at a time in 10 pt increments, some times I get the 10 pt chime with the random scoring. All I have to do is hit the flipper button(s), and the random scoring begins. Also, see picture, the two areas highlighted I thought were 10 point scores do not score at all. Any other suggestions very welcomed!![quoted image]

Can you post a photo of your game boards in the back box? Also, if you disconnect the chime box does the scoring still run? I would also bypass all of the 10 point switches by inserting thin cardboard in the gap (like a piece of business card) and don’t forget the ones on your pop bumpers. Tape the cardboard in if you have to. There are 2 switches on each pop bumper. The top one is the “pop” while the lower one does the scoring. Report back with your findings.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Can you post a photo of your game boards in the back box? Also, if you disconnect the chime box does the scoring still run? I would also bypass all of the 10 point switches by inserting thin cardboard in the gap (like a piece of business card) and don’t forget the ones on your pop bumpers. Tape the cardboard in if you have to. There are 2 switches on each pop bumper. The top one is the “pop” while the lower one does the scoring. Report back with your findings.

Will do..

and
maybe this is nothing, but diodes tested all measured around 0.2 on MM except for bad one (0). Replacement diode read 0.5 vs 0.2, could this have anything to do with increased sensitivity of random scoring?

#10 1 year ago

pics of all components on back wall

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#11 1 year ago

3 wires to chime box disconnected, points still score, random points still tally.

ALL contacts that I could find separated with folded paper, random points still tally

by the way, noticed when chimes did sound with random point tally, the lower chime would ding once (10 pts?), then if field bumped or flipper activated, higher pitched chime would ding once (100 pts??)...but random points added seemed like only 50 to 80 points, 10 at a time...

??????

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinwalk:

Will do..
and
maybe this is nothing, but diodes tested all measured around 0.2 on MM except for bad one (0). Replacement diode read 0.5 vs 0.2, could this have anything to do with increased sensitivity of random scoring?

The different reading tells me you didn’t replace the diode with the same type. Gottlieb’s don’t like that usually. Try to source the correct part. It might help. Try running the game with that diode removed. Does the score quit running?

#13 1 year ago

I would also recommend replacing cable A1-J5 to A3-J1 with a shinny new one and re-pin connector A1-J6. These edge connectors are bad and by bad I mean really bad. They ware out super fast.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinwalk:

3 wires to chime box disconnected, points still score, random points still tally.
ALL contacts that I could find separated with folded paper, random points still tally
by the way, noticed when chimes did sound with random point tally, the lower chime would ding once (10 pts?), then if field bumped or flipper activated, higher pitched chime would ding once (100 pts??)...but random points added seemed like only 50 to 80 points, 10 at a time...
??????

Were you able to find the scoring switch on each of the 3 pop bumpers? Can’t remember if they are 10 or 100 points but you said they weren’t scoring so they might be suspect. That is a fancy mpu. Haven’t purchased one yet but I would think it has decent testing capabilities. Does it offer up any potential problems in test mode?

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Were you able to find the scoring switch on each of the 3 pop bumpers? Can’t remember if they are 10 or 100 points but you said they weren’t scoring so they might be suspect. That is a fancy mpu. Haven’t purchased one yet but I would think it has decent testing capabilities. Does it offer up any potential problems in test mode?

in test mode, the only unusual result I got was no sound when testing C-10 (10 point chime), see post #4 above. will double check pop scoring switches

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

The different reading tells me you didn’t replace the diode with the same type. Gottlieb’s don’t like that usually. Try to source the correct part. It might help. Try running the game with that diode removed. Does the score quit running?

disconnected the diode I replaced.....no difference in problem, still have random scoring. Assuming first step is to replace diode with proper replacement, then go from there.....

found new first connector you mentioned on ebay, will get if proper diode does not fix problem

#17 1 year ago

if you go into the switch test on the flippp board and watch for a while does it register any random switch events that could point to the issue?

#18 1 year ago

ordered and received DMM and diodes (for coils, part number 1N4004). Just tested a new diode on its own, and its reading 0.59, was looking for 0.2. Dang it, guess I ordered the wrong diodes!!
can anyone tell me, for Gottlieb System 1, maybe I should have ordered the 1N270 diodes for switches or the 1N914?

#19 1 year ago
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#20 1 year ago

I would take a close look at all the 10 point switches ,it's possible the metal of parts of switch are touching even though the contacts are open .Another possibility with the switches that don't score is that switch may already be closed

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from BorgDog:

[quoted image]

perfect,thanks!

so these 1N270 diodes are harder to find than the 1N4004.... found some say 1N270 Germanium Diodes 40mA 100V DO-7 IN270 1N-270 Glass Axial Diodes for TV FM AM Radio Detection
2 concerns- says 40mA, but my current ones reading 0.2, problem? and these say used for TV FM AM radio detection...so can it be used for my purposes? Sorry for the probably stupid questions, I have little knowledge on these things, thanks!

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinwalk:

perfect,thanks!
so these 1N270 diodes are harder to find than the 1N4004.... found some say 1N270 Germanium Diodes 40mA 100V DO-7 IN270 1N-270 Glass Axial Diodes for TV FM AM Radio Detection
2 concerns- says 40mA, but my current ones reading 0.2, problem? and these say used for TV FM AM radio detection...so can it be used for my purposes? Sorry for the probably stupid questions, I have little knowledge on these things, thanks!

Those should work. A lot of these Gottlieb parts are getting hard to source. I myself just bought a old system 1 wire harness off eBay just to get the obsolete parts off of it.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from pintime:

I would take a close look at all the 10 point switches ,it's possible the metal of parts of switch are touching even though the contacts are open .Another possibility with the switches that don't score is that switch may already be closed

I have limited paperwork/documentation on Roller Disco, does anyone have documentation that shows all the switches and their point values?

#24 1 year ago

after reading pinrepair.com/sys1, specifically "use 1N270 diodes for switches (1N914 or 1N4148 can also be used, or in a pinch 1N4001/1N4004)", I ordered some 1N270 and some 1N914 (just to be safe). Got the 1N914 in today, was excited. But in testing diode with mm, reading came in at 0.61, way above 0.2.

installed a 1N914 diode for broken one anyway, had nothing to lose. No help. In fact, in testing the coils, I get no sound for C-10 AND C-100 now.

Hoping once 1N270's come in next week, problem will go away.

Also did switch test on the flippp board, nothing came up as broken or working improperly.....

1 week later
#25 1 year ago

update- just received 1N270 Germanium Diodes. Tested one, looking for 0.2v....nope, just like the others i ordered, its reading 0.631........Still, just replaced non working diode with one of these new ones, got nothing to lose, right? Interesting results....machine seems 'better', but still not right.
Before installing latest diode, C-100 chime had stopped working during testing of boards, now I get a chime when testing C-100, sounds weak, but it is working. (Still no C-10 chime during testing). Also, random scoring is not as bad as it was, ie, before, with 'bad diode/no diode', triggering flippers would cause random scoring of 20 to 70 points in 10 point increments. With latest diode 1N270, random scoring still occurs, but it only adds 10 to 30 points at a time.
So, do I order another diode, one specially rated at 0.2v, even if part number does not match with suggested replacement parts? Or do I move on and continue to try and find a bad switch, and is there any way to do that besides hitting the rubber/switch with a ball/finger?

#26 1 year ago

How are you testing the diodes? Are you doing like in this video?

Use this method to test all of the diodes on those 3 little diode boards. My guess is you have a second bad one or a switch is shorting out somewhere.

#27 1 year ago

yes, that is how I tested all the diodes. I will test them all again, and will continue to look for switch that is stuck or shorting out.... if not visual, is there any way to test switches using the DMM?

#28 1 year ago

Sure, your meter should have a continuity test. Just clip your leads to both sides of the switch. It should have no reading when the switch is at rest and tone when the switch is closed. If it tones when it is at rest you have an issue. Hook up your leads and knock on the playfield in different places. If it doesn’t tone, move on to the next switch. Check them all including the ones on the pop bumpers. I use small alligators clips to hold the leads in place.

#29 1 year ago

Thanks Mad Dog! took my DMM and did a continuity test on scoring switches, see pic, yellow tags circled in black.

Have about 6 switches were I could not get a tone after multiple attempts. Thing is, I could swear most of them seem to add points when activated.

Also, could it be a central connect point to one of the boards that is the issue??? Probably going to ask a friend to come over next week so we can retest all switches, 4 hands better than two for this work. Mad Dog had recommended replacing a couple of cables and re-pinning, wondering now if this is the issue.

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#30 1 year ago

No tone is very rare finding. I'm thinking you didn't have good contact. Clip the MMD leads to the back side of each switch where the wires are attached and try again. At that point you should be able to apply pressure on the switch and get a tone. Besides, no tone isn't your problem. You have at least one that is registering during play randomly. I was hoping you would find one toning while pressure wasn't applied.

#31 1 year ago

i figured it was operator error, so tested them again, this time with wife pushing the switch to close them one by one, freeing up my hands to get better connections..
Same results.... could still be me not finding good contact points, but here's a new issue. Lowered playing field, turned pin on and started testing individual switches. the ones that tested 'no tone with DMM test' either scored no points when triggered, OR scored 2 or 3 times the number of points it should have given.
could i have an issue with one of the boards? Or maybe some of the connector pins have corrosion?

4 weeks later
#32 1 year ago

Update. The guy who I am hoping will help me solve the problems with my RD is healing up. He had some minor surgery, hopefully will be up to speed in another couple of weeks. Meanwhile, played the pin last night, the problems deepen, and I am wondering if the core issue is board related.

In a nutshell, the problems are 1) sometimes (and this goes for probably more than half the sensors) points are given/sounds are heard, sometimes nothing and sometimes double the points due are given. 2) as the sensors are hit, the scoring slows down and backs up, so after the ball drains, scoring and sound can continue for another 3-8 seconds. 3) Still have issue of points added (10-30 per flip) when flipper buttons are hit. 4) Noticed last night, when point total exceeded level for free game, no knock was heard, no game was added to total left on backglass. Yet, after game, got a match on score and knock was heard, one game was added.

Frustrating to say the least. Any thoughts or suggestions welcomed. Would love to fix this on my own, am fairly competent fixing most things that 'break', but my experience with pins is limited at this point.

1 month later
#33 1 year ago

Hi, another update. Long story short, replaced Rottendog driver board with new Rottendog driver board. Game plays faster, scoring is better, BUT, still have 10 point random scoring in bursts of 10-50 points, triggered by flippers being activated or even bumpers/targets being hit, in short, any jarring at all of playfield causes random scoring. So, turned machine off, raised pf and immediately smelled burning. Finally tracked it down to 10 point chime coil being Extremely hot to the touch and smelling 'burnt' (electronic chimes were replaced months ago with chimes, which have worked fine until recently). So, as discussed before, I seem to have a 10 point target that is misfiring for whatever reason. I have tested some of the 10 point targets, they seem fine, but I dont know if I am testing all the 10 point targets.....does anyone have a schematic or diagram that shows all the 10 point sensors on a Roller Disco?????

#34 1 year ago

Your schematic should show that information. Pinball Resource is the source for them. Steve Young is a wealth of information, a phone call may prove helpful.
http://www.pbresource.com/

#35 1 year ago

I had a newer game that did this...a HSII, and like you chased it for awhile. Turned out to be a switch shorted to a metal habitrail, and the habitrail when the playfield was lowered was grazing the hinge bolt which was grounded. Anytime you shook the playfield, random switches would fire. So, my point here, any stray ground in the switch matrix could be causing this. It's going to take some divide and conquer effort on your part, but I would start by isolating switch columns/rows to the board. I'm not familiar with the diode arrangement on RD, and don't have a manual, but if you can lift one leg of all the switch diodes, first test do you still have random scoring. If so, then you have a ground short somewhere in the wiring. If not, start reattaching one diode at a time, until the problem replicates.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I had a newer game that did this...a HSII, and like you chased it for awhile. Turned out to be a switch shorted to a metal habitrail, and the habitrail when the playfield was lowered was grazing the hinge bolt which was grounded. Anytime you shook the playfield, random switches would fire. So, my point here, any stray ground in the switch matrix could be causing this. It's going to take some divide and conquer effort on your part, but I would start by isolating switch columns/rows to the board. I'm not familiar with the diode arrangement on RD, and don't have a manual, but if you can lift one leg of all the switch diodes, first test do you still have random scoring. If so, then you have a ground short somewhere in the wiring. If not, start reattaching one diode at a time, until the problem replicates.

ok, thank you both for those suggestions. Hopefully guy who has been helping me (and has much more experience) can come over and work on this with me soon...in the meantime, noob question. in the photo, just noticed the coil spring was over the end of the post and very close to touching the lever bar the coil is attached to...(I adjusted it away) could that cause the random scoring? This is a 10 point switch...am hesitate to turn machine back on and risk burning out coil or driver board until I have my friend look at itwGuhG01PSQyGLCxL7Hanqw_thumb_50f (resized).jpg

#37 1 year ago

Coil spring not the problem.

I finally did find the stuck switch. There is a 10 point switch behind each bank of drop down targets that spell ROLLER (left hand side) and DISCO (right hand side). The contacts on the switch behind the drop down targets on the LHS were too close together, any bump or vibration would cause the contacts to touch.

The only reason I found it was a lot of searching and a little luck. I had the playfield vertical with the power on, and was tapping on every contact I could find with a wooden spoon. I tapped on the housing for the drop down targets, noticed it was ultra sensitive, and finally saw the offending contact while looking through the housing into the playfield.
Thanks to all of you for the great advice and suggestions!!!!!!

1 week later
#38 1 year ago

Guess I spoke a little too soon. Yes, random scoring has stopped, all bumpers and targets seem to be scoring correctly, but I noticed the 10 point chime (switched out electronic sounds for old time chimes) was not sounding off, raised playfield, smelled burning, 10 point coil was energized and very hot to the touch. turned game off, disconnected wiring to coil. Reconnected wiring to coil, turned game on, coil immediately energized and stayed on.... so, what could be energizing the 10 point coil even though no points being scored...?

#39 1 year ago

Short in the playfield or a shorted transistor that drives the coil.

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Short in the playfield or a shorted transistor that drives the coil.

thanks, are you talking the transistor on the driver board?

#41 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinwalk:

thanks, are you talking the transistor on the driver board?

Yes...Don't have a System 1 schematic handy, but I would check that. If you have a schematic and know the connector for that solenoid, when the coil is locked on, pull the connector from the board. Does the coil drop out? If so, then signal is deriving from board. If it stays locked on, then short in playfield wiring.

Also, does coil lock on as soon as you turn on game, when it's in attract mode, or when you start a game. If it is locking on during attract mode, most assuredly, it's a shorted driver transistor or the pre-driver circuitry. If it is only locking on during game play, then could be a switch somewhere telling it to turn on.

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