(Topic ID: 328117)

Sys 11 excessive battery drain

By Tomass

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Tomass
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#1 1 year ago

So I added a button battery to my system 11 SOF and it drains a brand new battery in a matter of days. I tried a different pack to make sure it wasn't a bad batch and same result. What could cause this? I have added the same setup to all my other sys 11s without this issue.

#2 1 year ago

Usually there's two diodes in the circuit going from the battery to the ram. If one is bad it can cause wired issues like this

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Usually there's two diodes in the circuit going from the battery to the ram. If one is bad it can cause wired issues like this

Good to know! I will check that first.

#4 1 year ago

Is this the battery on the schematics? I see D3 but not sure I see a second diode.

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#5 1 year ago

Also D1 on the board does not seem to be working properly.

#6 1 year ago

Oh, I think this is the battery upon further review. Looks like D1 and D2 need to be checked? Can't find D2 just yet.

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#7 1 year ago

Posted too soon again. I get voltage across both those diodes in diode test. Maybe because it's in circuit. Guess I will start with pulling a leg and testing both those.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Posted too soon again. I get voltage across both those diodes in diode test. Maybe because it's in circuit. Guess I will start with pulling a leg and testing both those.

Test the diodes in circuit but without power. If D1 is a Schottky (barrier) diode then the drop should be around 0.2V. D2 should be a small signal diode and the drop should be 0.4V to 0.6V.

D1 blocks the batteries from powering the rest of the board. D2 blocks the batteries from being charged while there is main power.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Test the diodes in circuit but without power. If D1 is a Schottky (barrier) diode then the drop should be around 0.2V. D2 should be a small signal diode and the drop should be 0.4V to 0.6V.
D1 blocks the batteries from powering the rest of the board. D2 blocks the batteries from being charged while there is main power.

I get voltage in both directions on both of those. Power was off when tested.
One was .5 in one direction and .7 the other way
The other was .6 in both directions.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Tomass:

I get voltage in both directions on both of those. Power was off when tested.
One was .5 in one direction and .7 the other way
The other was .6 in both directions.

You shouldn't get a voltage drop in both directions. Use a DMM with a diode test. Red lead on anode and black lead on cathode.

Check your methodology against a known good diode elsewhere in the system. If you are reading a drop in both directions for any tested diode then there's something wrong with your methodology. If the methodology is sound and both D1 and D2 read as you described, I would replace both of them. Of course, the parts are so cheap you could shotgun replace them. I, generally, don't replace parts unless they test bad or I suspect they are bad.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

You shouldn't get a voltage drop in both directions. Use a DMM with a diode test. Red lead on anode and black lead on cathode.
Check your methodology against a known good diode elsewhere in the system. If you are reading a drop in both directions for any tested diode then there's something wrong with your methodology. If the methodology is sound and both D1 and D2 read as you described, I would replace both of them. Of course, the parts are so cheap you could shotgun replace them. I, generally, don't replace parts unless they test bad or I suspect they are bad.

So it was some charge in the battery throwing things off. D2 reads correctly now and D1 gives .47 in one direction and .156 in the other. I will swap out D1 tomorrow and hopefully resolve the issue.

#12 1 year ago

If D1 is shorted the batteries will try to power the entire board which will drain them out quite fast. Not very typical fail mode, but it happens.

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/digital-multimeters/how-to-test-diodes

"Diode test analysis
A shorted diode has the same voltage drop reading in both directions"

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

If D1 is shorted the batteries will try to power the entire board which will drain them out quite fast. Not very typical fail mode, but it happens.
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/digital-multimeters/how-to-test-diodes
"Diode test analysis
A shorted diode has the same voltage drop reading in both directions"

So what does it mean when I am getting a different voltage drop in one direction?

#14 1 year ago

You should get a voltage drop in one direction and then it should be open in the other. A diode only lets current pass in one direction and blocks it in the other; it's like a check valve, but for electricity. I have seen crazy results when measuring in circuit, but then pulling it out of circuit it then tests normally. I know people here say not to shotgun replace stuff, but it's so cheap and easy, I would just replace both and re-test and hopefully be done with it.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from interconnect:

You should get a voltage drop in one direction and then it should be open in the other. A diode only lets current pass in one direction and blocks it in the other; it's like a check valve, but for electricity. I have seen crazy results when measuring in circuit, but then pulling it out of circuit it then tests normally. I know people here say not to shotgun replace stuff, but it's so cheap and easy, I would just replace both and re-test and hopefully be done with it.

Yeah, I am going to try to dig through a snow drift today and get to my shed. I think I have a 5817 out there.

#16 1 year ago

Can I sub a 5408 for the 5817? Seems a lot beefier but I think it might work?

#17 1 year ago

Actually, I thought this was a Schottky, but now I'm not sure. I know I had some but can't seem to find them. I do have extra 4148 diodes. I guess I need to place an order.

#18 1 year ago

You can test this diode in circuit. Battery out. Power off.

When testing diodes, remember black on band is when you should see the voltage drop, 0.2 for this special type of diode. Opposite way should be OL / no reading.

If you get voltage drop with the leads across d1 with red on band, the diode is bad. It's leaking reverse. Silicon diodes usually fail dead short, this is a special type of diode that has low voltage drop may have different fail modes like being reverse leakage.

You can probably get by with a 1n4148, but the ram chip will have roughly 0.2vdv less from the extra voltage drop. Williams used a 1n4148 in the earlier boardset and it worked fine. I'd probably get the right part, but if you want the game running for Xmas, go for it.

1 week later
#19 1 year ago

Ok, I am stumped now. My diodes are coming in today so I removed the old D1. It tests good out of circuit. Looking at the schematic I decided to test u40 and it seems good. What's odd is that I get a voltage drop across the solder points of D1 when it is removed in both directions. Then I pulled U25 since it is the next component in line and with that out I get no connection across the D1 points. Does this mean my U25 ram is bad? If so I think I will pull the socket and replace with a 28 pin socket and put nvram in.

#20 1 year ago

For sanity I checked a real sys 11 MPU. On diode test i don't get any reading reverse on D1 as expected. If you are getting a reading there is a leak from somewhere. If it goes away when U25 is removed I guess that would be a clue.

I guess if Q40 shorted it could drain out the batteries through the base and possible still work OK since it just passes the RAM CE to the chip when the CPU is out of reset.

6116 should be a low power version intended for battery backup. This chip is typically hard soldered to the board sine you mention a socket its possible someone stuffed the board with a chip that is not have a lower power shutdown mode. What is printed on your 6116 chip?

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

For sanity I checked a real sys 11 MPU. On diode test i don't get any reading reverse on D1 as expected. If you are getting a reading there is a leak from somewhere. If it goes away when U25 is removed I guess that would be a clue.
I guess if Q40 shorted it could drain out the batteries through the base and possible still work OK since it just passes the RAM CE to the chip when the CPU is out of reset.
6116 should be a low power version intended for battery backup. This chip is typically hard soldered to the board sine you mention a socket its possible someone stuffed the board with a chip that is not have a lower power shutdown mode. What is printed on your 6116 chip?

Earlier today I put a 6116 in the socket and the diode is reading correctly. I have a new batteryin so I will see if it holds up. The chip originally (when I got it) in it is not a 6116. It says TMM 2016. Looking it up it seems to be similar but must not be compatible for some reason.
Thanks for your input.

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#22 1 year ago

Just get with the program and install NVRAM. It never forgets, even if you do.

#23 1 year ago

That chip is the issue as it has 5mA standby current. If the batteries have 3000mAh that is only 600hours of life.
http://www.datasheet-pdf.com/PDF/TMM2016BP-10-Datasheet-Toshiba-784932

Since the RAM is hard soldered in, didnt really expect the wrong part to go in.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Just get with the program and install NVRAM. It never forgets, even if you do.

Yeah, I have a bunch of nvram chips but they need the larger socket. I should just pull the socket and replace it.

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

That chip is the issue as it has 5mA standby current. If the batteries have 3000mAh that is only 600hours of life.
http://www.datasheet-pdf.com/PDF/TMM2016BP-10-Datasheet-Toshiba-784932
Since the RAM is hard soldered in, didnt really expect the wrong part to go in.

I was only getting about 2 days for a brand new 2032 coin battery. The chip was socketed so someone replaced it at some point. What's weird is that it was causing voltage across D1 even when it was removed (volatge drop in diode test across the solder points with D1 removed).

#26 1 year ago

The math is about right for two days. CR2032 ~ 250 mAh / 5mA = 50hours

#27 1 year ago

Going to mark this as resolved. It seems the chip was the issue. I went and just added a piece of a socket onto the additional 4 pins and moved the jumper to add nvram and all seems fine. Thanks for everyone's help and input.

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