(Topic ID: 268742)

Surf 'n Safari Value after TNT Amusement Service?


By HydrogenHuman

59 days ago



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  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 57 days ago by ForceFlow
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#1 59 days ago

I just purchased a Surf N Safari in decent shape for a very good price in my opinion. It does have some wear in certain areas (as you'll see in the pictures), but the overall playfield looks nice and the game is playable minus the out lanes not always registering. All lights, sound, and display work.

I was thinking of sending the machine to TNT Amusements for their complete service, (they were the ones that sold it to the previous owner as their stamp is on the machine) but I wasn't sure if it would be worth doing it or the cost of doing the service would make the value of it enough to be worth it.

After speaking with Todd (who's a great guy) he said that depending on the condition of the machine the full service would run anywhere from $2200-$2400. The full service includes putting in LEDS, taking the whole machine apart, checking all boards, touch ups, etc.

I know Surf 'n Safari isn't the most desirable machine, so I wanted to know if I'd be spending too much on getting it serviced, or if it would be worth it in the long run.

P.S. This is my first machine I've ever bought, so I'm very green to understanding and evaluating machines! Thanks!

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#2 59 days ago

You can look at all the old adds here - https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive?s=1&radius_latitude=42.773794323925&radius_longitude=-78.689231872559&keywords=&ad_machine_key=470&ad_condition=0&machine_type=&ad_machine_manuf=&year_from=&year_to=&radius_distancekm=0&sort_by=ad_end_date&sort_order=DESC#results

That game looks to be maybe 1700$ max in players condition. So to bluntly answer your question, unless you love the game, money isn't an object and it's your grail pin you'd be crazy to spend that much on it. You're more than capable of replacing the bulbs on your own. If you can replace your household lights, you can do a pin. Wipe down topside yourself. Again not hard. Dont even have to strip the machine if you want to. Play it. Get comfy and when you feel bold if you can manage to operate a screw driver - take the plastics off and replace the rubber. Not sure what "checking the boards" entails..but if the game operates you're paying someone to look at them. That doesn't compute at all. Again my .02. Good luck and welcome to the hobby

#3 59 days ago
Quoted from tommyp:

You can look at all the old adds here - https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive?s=1&radius_latitude=42.773794323925&radius_longitude=-78.689231872559&keywords=&ad_machine_key=470&ad_condition=0&machine_type=&ad_machine_manuf=&year_from=&year_to=&radius_distancekm=0&sort_by=ad_end_date&sort_order=DESC#results
That game looks to be maybe 1700$ max in players condition. So to bluntly answer your question, unless you love the game, money isn't an object and it's your grail pin you'd be crazy to spend that much on it. You're more than capable of replacing the bulbs on your own. If you can replace your household lights, you can do a pin. Wipe down topside yourself. Again not hard. Dont even have to strip the machine if you want to. Play it. Get comfy and when you feel bold if you can manage to operate a screw driver - take the plastics off and replace the rubber. Not sure what "checking the boards" entails..but if the game operates you're paying someone to look at them. That doesn't compute at all. Again my .02. Good luck and welcome to the hobby

That's what I figured. I appreciate the input!

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#4 59 days ago

I would say after the full service the game will be worth less than the price of the full service.you're spending $2200+ to make the game worth $2000.

#5 59 days ago
Quoted from HydrogenHuman:

That's what I figured. I appreciate the input!

No worries. Seems daunting looking at it but it's not. Be sure the power is off. Make sure you screw the bulbs in all the way. Really simple. Wet rag - wipe all that black crap off. Or novus polish. If there were board issues the game would be malfunctioning. You can look at it yourself. If any of the capacitors look swollen. Send it out. Check the batteries and replace them. If you're careful doing so w/the power on will ensure high scores remain. If you dont care, power off. Many will tell you the proper way to shop it is replace bulbs. strip the top side, wipe it down, replace all the rubber and put it back together. Pay attention to detail - what screw came from where, what was on top of what and you can do it yourself. Rubbers are like rubber bands. Yea sure..may take you a couple hrs. But 2200 bucks - hell no.

#6 59 days ago

If it’s functioning properly and playing, I would just plug it up and play it. No need for a full restoration

#7 59 days ago
Quoted from Coz:

If it’s functioning properly and playing, I would just plug it up and play it. No need for a full restoration

Didnt even sound like a full resto. That initial post was a 2200 shop job.

#8 59 days ago

I have had 2 machines with TNT stickers rotate through my basement, including 1 I bought out of his "bargain basement" (a $4850 White Water). The White Water had been reconditioned by then in 2003, and they had done the boards again before selling it to me. Todd and TNT amusements are fantastic. I believe the value they provide to machines is not necessarily in playfield restoration and LEDs, but the work they do on the boards in the backbox. I am guessing that they already reflowed solder and offset the batteries in the back when they did that one in 2000. Changing out bulbs to LEDs is fairly easy, will make your machine look better and last longer, and can be done for about $100 (Comet #2 SMD LEDs are my favorite). A pack of rubbers will cost you about $20. There is clearly touchup paint around that gobble hole from 20 years ago that has faded. My White Water had faded paint like that where TNT had touched up and it had faded a bit over time. If the paint is bothering you, you can fix it. Some GOJO hand sanitizer (make sure you get the type safe for paint) or novus can remove those black ball trails.

You could absolutely shot this out yourself for under $200 and have a fine machine. It would be a learning experience and take 6-10 hours depending on if/how you paint, but it could be done. If you want it done right and don't want to mess with it, TNT can do it for you. It is a question of what your time is worth, and whether you think you would enjoy the work. If taking a machine apart sounds like fun, go for it! There are nerds on this site that will guide you through it. However, if you are looking at having a machine restored by others to increase it's value... it won't. A $2,000 shop job by TNT may add $200-$300 to the price, but so would a $200 shop job done by Hydrogen Human.

Either way, good luck!

#9 59 days ago

Yeah my dad and I are pretty tech savy, so it shouldn't be an issue at all to clean and fix it up. The only annoying thing may be fixing the out lane triggers not always working, but probably not that bad.

#10 59 days ago
Quoted from HydrogenHuman:

Yeah my dad and I are pretty tech savy, so it shouldn't be an issue at all to clean and fix it up. The only annoying thing may be fixing the out lane triggers not always working, but probably not that bad.

Just a matter of adjusting or cleaning the switch under the playfield.

#11 59 days ago
Quoted from HydrogenHuman:

Yeah my dad and I are pretty tech savy, so it shouldn't be an issue at all to clean and fix it up. The only annoying thing may be fixing the out lane triggers not always working, but probably not that bad.

Dollars to donuts, there is a switch in the outlane that makes a small audible "click" when rolled over. If it is registering only some of the time, it is likely the wire part that sticks above the playfield isn't being pushed down hard enough to make the "click" sound and engage the switch unless the ball is dead center. Simply bending the metal part above the playfield up a tiny bit may be enough to resolve the problem. If it doesn need a new switch, there are sites like Marco's Specialty parts and pinball life that can have any part you need to your door in a few days. https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/180-5126-00 I don't know this is the exact part you need (check an online manual off of IPDB) but something like this would be soldered in to replace a faulty switch if a bend didn't work. $30 at home depot and 30 minutes on youtube can get you some basic soldering skills good enough to replace a part like this.

The whole point is... it's not as bad as it seems. Machines from that era are full of user replaceable parts.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

#12 59 days ago

Do the shop job yourself. The lessons you learn and education you gain in the hobby will be much more valuable than $2200.

#13 59 days ago
Quoted from sataneatscheese:

Dollars to donuts, there is a switch in the outlane that makes a small audible "click" when rolled over. If it is registering only some of the time, it is likely the wire part that sticks above the playfield isn't being pushed down hard enough to make the "click" sound and engage the switch unless the ball is dead center. Simply bending the metal part above the playfield up a tiny bit may be enough to resolve the problem. If it doesn need a new switch, there are sites like Marco's Specialty parts and pinball life that can have any part you need to your door in a few days. https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/180-5126-00 I don't know this is the exact part you need (check an online manual off of IPDB) but something like this would be soldered in to replace a faulty switch if a bend didn't work. $30 at home depot and 30 minutes on youtube can get you some basic soldering skills good enough to replace a part like this.
The whole point is... it's not as bad as it seems. Machines from that era are full of user replaceable parts.
Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

Oh, interesting. I'm already learning a lot just from reading this post, haha! Thanks!

#14 59 days ago

I bought a Robo War from a lady in Florida. She and her husband bought it from TNT. They did a nice job on the white leds and services the boards. It had some minor issues that I’m sure happened over time after they bought it.

What I really disliked was that TNT touched up the red cabinet with red paint that didn’t match the color of the cabinet. From three feet away it looked ok, but up close you could see the large brush strokes on the cabinet.

#15 59 days ago

Pass on that for sure. This is your first game. Learn to work on it! This is a perfect game to learn on. You don’t want to put any significant money into this. On it’s best day this is a 1800 game. Just play the hell out of it and fix everything yourself.

#16 59 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Pass on that for sure. This is your first game. Learn to work on it! This is a perfect game to learn on. You don’t want to put any significant money into this. On it’s best day this is a 1800 game. Just play the hell out of it and fix everything yourself.

That's definitely gonna be my plan! I already contacted Fast Eddy and he'll be picking it up and delivering.

#17 59 days ago

Good luck! I bet you find that it will need very little and much of the mystery will be gone once you start to see how these things work! It is half the fun of the hobby IMO.

#18 59 days ago

It will be worth nothing more at all.
Possibly even less.

#19 59 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

It will be worth nothing more at all.
Possibly even less.

Yeah when I heard that price range I assumed it was not going to be worth it at all. So ultimately it's gonna be used for fun and learning the ins and outs of pinball machine maintenance, repair, and upgrading if need be.

#20 59 days ago

Fun game easy to understand rules ,was also my first pin, like everyone else has said learn to work on it yourself will be helpful down the road if you get more. I've gotten like 15 more since this one and I have found the gottliebs system 3s to be the most reliable.

#21 59 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Pass on that for sure. This is your first game. Learn to work on it! This is a perfect game to learn on. You don’t want to put any significant money into this. On it’s best day this is a 1800 game. Just play the hell out of it and fix everything yourself.

This. My first couple games were heavily routed re-imports that needed something fixed every couple weeks. I played the shit out of them and learned a lot about how these things work pretty quickly. It was a little overwhelming at first but in hindsight I wouldn’t have had it any other way. Once you roll up your sleeves you truly realize how amazing these machines are.

#22 59 days ago

Congratulations! SnS is an excellent pin with great shots and rules.

You are probably fortunate that SnS is a Gottlieb System 3, one of the most reliable platforms out there. Biggest problem with any of the Gottlieb games of that era is a lack of game specific parts like ramps, plastics, and playfields. Whirlpool ramp is a weak spot as it is very thin and replacements are NLA. Under playfield hardware is heavy gauge and robust, won't be breaking any metal parts on that game. I have had one on location for nearly 2 years with only minor repairs needed. An expensive service overhaul is really not necessary.

#23 59 days ago
Quoted from BrianBannon:

Congratulations! SnS is an excellent pin with great shots and rules.
You are probably fortunate that SnS is a Gottlieb System 3, one of the most reliable platforms out there. Biggest problem with any of the Gottlieb games of that era is a lack of game specific parts like ramps, plastics, and playfields. Whirlpool ramp is a weak spot as it is very thin and replacements are NLA. Under playfield hardware is heavy gauge and robust, won't be breaking any metal parts on that game. I have had one on location for nearly 2 years with only minor repairs needed. An expensive service overhaul is really not necessary.

The good news is that I think only one plastic piece has a small crack but was taped way back by TNT Amusements. I learned it was purchased back in 2001 from them by the owner I bought it from. I also didn't realize the System 3 systems are strong, so that's great to hear as a newbie to this.

#24 59 days ago

its a re-import, they tend to have many issues (wood swelling/falling apart, , rusty switches and assemblies causing lots of problems, hacked wires, etc). You will be learning a lot on your own which is much better on your pocket book. If you have any questions message me. We have one or 2 SNS and even one on our rental list:0).
I have worked on plenty of them. The optos in the bowl seem to be a common issue.

#25 59 days ago
Quoted from silver_spinner:

its a re-import, they tend to have many issues (wood swelling/falling apart, , rusty switches and assemblies causing lots of problems, hacked wires, etc). You will be learning a lot on your own which is much better on your pocket book. If you have any questions message me. We have one or 2 SNS and even one on our rental list:0).
I have worked on plenty of them. The optos in the bowl seem to be a common issue.

I'll be sure to ask you for tech help when the time comes! Thanks!

#26 58 days ago

TNT’s service is valuable to homeowners who don’t want to work on their games or collectors who want a game bulletproofed and never want to deal with anything more than a ball hang up.

The thing about owning pinball machines that burn out most folks is just how often your games will need things done and parts replaced. Eventually you reach an equilibrium and it slows down and you can play without worry, just regular maintenance.

#27 58 days ago

I'm sure TNT does a great job at fixing pinballs (really like watching their videos by the way) but I preffer to do the restoration myself instead of letting someone else handle it. I have three main reasons for this:

1. Fun. I simply enjoy fixing up a beaten machine and see it evolve into something much nicer. Its also very satisfying when its done.

2. Game knowledge. While going through the games all assemblies, plastics, rubbers and so on you learn a lot. You realise where hard to get to switches are located. You learn how to remove certain tricky things (like the gumball in TZ or the ramps in SS). You learn how mechanical things like flippers and pop bumpers works. All this knowledge is great to have when something breaks in the future.

3. A beautiful and robust game. After going through the whole game, taking everything apart for cleaning and polishing, replacing broken plastics, new rubbers, new balls, new coil sleeves, put in LEDs, resoldered cables hanging by the threads and so on the game will play great for a long time and you will hopefully only get minor problems to fix in the future.

Each new pinball takes me about a month or so to go through (working on evenings and weekends) and waiting for replacement parts.

Ok, what Im trying to say here with my wall of text is that you are better off doing it yourself.

#28 58 days ago
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

I'm sure TNT does a great job at fixing pinballs (really like watching their videos by the way) but I preffer to do the restoration myself instead of letting someone else handle it. I have three main reasons for this:
1. Fun. I simply enjoy fixing up a beaten machine and see it evolve into something much nicer. Its also very satisfying when its done.
2. Game knowledge. While going through the games all assemblies, plastics, rubbers and so on you learn a lot. You realise where hard to get to switches are located. You learn how to remove certain tricky things (like the gumball in TZ or the ramps in SS). You learn how mechanical things like flippers and pop bumpers works. All this knowledge is great to have when something breaks in the future.
3. A beautiful and robust game. After going through the whole game, taking everything apart for cleaning and polishing, replacing broken plastics, new rubbers, new balls, new coil sleeves, put in LEDs, resoldered cables hanging by the threads and so on the game will play great for a long time and you will hopefully only get minor problems to fix in the future.
Each new pinball takes me about a month or so to go through (working on evenings and weekends) and waiting for replacement parts.
Ok, what Im trying to say here with my wall of text is that you are better off doing it yourself.

I'm hoping that if I take it step by step and start with the simple stuff that I won't get overwhelmed when it comes to more involved aspects like resoldering cables, removing bumpers, removing all plastics, etc.

I would like owning a pinball machine to be fun and enjoyable and not end up being a headache during maintenance and repair!

#29 58 days ago
Quoted from HydrogenHuman:

I'm hoping that if I take it step by step and start with the simple stuff that I won't get overwhelmed when it comes to more involved aspects like resoldering cables, removing bumpers, removing all plastics, etc.
I would like owning a pinball machine to be fun and enjoyable and not end up being a headache during maintenance and repair!

It's like owning a classic car. It will take some work, tinkering, and maintenance to keep it up and running. You can either work on it as part of the aspect of the hobby, or hire someone to help. But the latter can be expensive and end up costing more than the car/pin might be worth. So, most people with older games tend to do most of their own repairs and maintenance.

Keep in mind, most people don't learn to fix everything all at once. A little bit at a time, one problem at a time, and one question at a time is all it takes to make some progress.

#30 57 days ago
Quoted from sataneatscheese:

I believe the value they provide to machines is not necessarily in playfield restoration and LEDs, but the work they do on the boards in the backbox. I am guessing that they already reflowed solder and offset the batteries in the back when they did that one in 2000.

Reflowing solder and moving batteries off the boards...

Literally THE *two easiest* electronic repairs known to man that involve a soldering iron. That isn't worth jack. Any dope can reflow solder with about 2 minutes of explanation. Moving the batteries to a remote is a 10 minute job as long as there's no acid damage.

Todd is a cool guy, he makes me laugh...love the videos...BUT...you have to realize their market is for rich lazy asshats that can't be arsed to learn or do anything for themselves anymore. 2k+ for a glorified shop job is for those people. Fools and their money.

Keep in mind, for example say.... a WPC game. I could replace the driver board, MPU, and sound card for give-or-take 800-ish? Even if you ASSUME that TNT is doing 800 bucks of board work (which short of acid damage is really quite absurd a cost for board work), they're STILL charging you...1200+ to shop a game and maybe do some touch ups? Will their board repairs last as long as a BRAND NEW SET OF BOARDS? Nah, man. Come on.

*Edit* You could theoretically take 150-300 bucks out of what they charge to cover the actual cost of LEDs if they're doing a full conversion.

#31 57 days ago
Quoted from Frax:

Reflowing solder and moving batteries off the boards...
Literally THE *two easiest* electronic repairs known to man that involve a soldering iron. That isn't worth jack. Any dope can reflow solder with about 2 minutes of explanation. Moving the batteries to a remote is a 10 minute job as long as there's no acid damage.
Todd is a cool guy, he makes me laugh...love the videos...BUT...you have to realize their market is for rich lazy asshats that can't be arsed to learn or do anything for themselves anymore. 2k+ for a glorified shop job is for those people. Fools and their money.
Keep in mind, for example say.... a WPC game. I could replace the driver board, MPU, and sound card for give-or-take 800-ish? Even if you ASSUME that TNT is doing 800 bucks of board work (which short of acid damage is really quite absurd a cost for board work), they're STILL charging you...1200+ to shop a game and maybe do some touch ups? Will their board repairs last as long as a BRAND NEW SET OF BOARDS? Nah, man. Come on.
*Edit* You could theoretically take 150-300 bucks out of what they charge to cover the actual cost of LEDs if they're doing a full conversion.

Yeah I am by no means a richey rich, haha. I'd like to get better at soldering, replacing batteries, and working on circuits if the end goal is to have a fun machine I can use.

#32 57 days ago

If you want to get better at working on electronics and soldering I recommend you buy some diy electronic kits off ebay for cheap money and if you ruin them learning it's cheap and not an expensive pinball board.
Example: ebay.com link

-Mike

#33 57 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

If you want to get better at working on electronics and soldering I recommend you buy some diy electronic kits off ebay for cheap money and if you ruin them learning it's cheap and not an expensive pinball board.
Example: ebay.com link
-Mike

Oh cool! I didn't know they made those diy kit things. I wonder if they make any that are close to how Pinball machine circuitry flow is, although it's likely all the same concept/design.

#34 57 days ago

There is all sorts of different kits you can get. Start with the cheap easy stuff and move your way up to say the clock that has chasing leds for the seconds.
I started with chasing led kits and screwed one up, determined to make it work I ended up having to solder some 18 ga. wire in to to fix the trace I destroyed from too much heat.
Another thought for you that I did was if you are gonna do touch ups and painting on playfields then start with some cheap "paint by number kits" from ebay. Try to stay in the lines yet blend it into the surrounding colors to not look like a hack. Way harder than you think.
-Mike
ebay.com link

#35 57 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

There is all sorts of different kits you can get. Start with the cheap easy stuff and move your way up to say the clock that has chasing leds for the seconds.
I started with chasing led kits and screwed one up, determined to make it work I ended up having to solder some 18 ga. wire in to to fix the trace I destroyed from too much heat.
Another thought for you that I did was if you are gonna do touch ups and painting on playfields then start with some cheap "paint by number kits" from ebay. Try to stay in the lines yet blend it into the surrounding colors to not look like a hack. Way harder than you think.
-Mike
ebay.com link

Fortunately my dad has worked on pcb boards for decades and has soldering tools. So I can easily learn from him and get help when needed. The painting, well...my grandfather was a great painter, but me not so much haha.

#36 57 days ago

Do as much of the work as you can yourself. That's the only way to really learn. Find a more knowledgeable collector who will let you call him from time to time with questions on how to fix something. Or post your questions here. Then do what they tell you and see how things work.

For something that might be really tough, ask around on here for the name of a local repair guy who does good work at a reasonable price. Have him come over, spend a few hundred dollars, and ask him if its ok if you watch while he works. Most guys don't mind teaching a few tricks of the trade to newbies. I've started a lot of guys in the pinball collecting and repair business by answering their questions and helping them out a few times.

Don't pay someone to "look" at your boards if they were already once gone over by a reliable mechanic. If they work, they work. If they don't, THEN you get someone to fix them. Especially for a game that was apparently professionally shopped some time back. Most preventive work a pro might do such as reflowing cold solder joints, replacing known to fail components, etc, should last many years. There should be no need to redo that for at least 10 years or more. It is a different story with a game that has not seen service in many years. Then, each manufacturer has weak spots that need to be checked to increase reliability. But this is only really important if you are planning to sell the game. If you are keeping it in your own house and it works now, leave it alone. If and when something starts to act up, then learn what the cause is, how to repair it, and do it. This way you learn little by little rather than trying to do everything at once when you aren't really sure what you are doing.

Finally, don't forget, if you are using a repair guy who lives several hundred miles from you, you are going to have to ship your game back and forth. That will add many hundreds of dollars to the cost of the rehab. Not worth it.

#37 57 days ago

You can get a stainless “Cliff” protector to cover the damage around the kick out hole. Not sure if he makes one specifically for S and S now, but I made one work from Super Mario Brothers a few years ago.

#38 57 days ago
Quoted from FrankJ:

You can get a stainless “Cliff” protector to cover the damage around the kick out hole. Not sure if he makes one specifically for S and S now, but I made one work from Super Mario Brothers a few years ago.

Where can I purchase those? Marco Specialties?

#39 57 days ago
Quoted from sbmania:

Do as much of the work as you can yourself. That's the only way to really learn. Find a more knowledgeable collector who will let you call him from time to time with questions on how to fix something. Or post your questions here. Then do what they tell you and see how things work.
For something that might be really tough, ask around on here for the name of a local repair guy who does good work at a reasonable price. Have him come over, spend a few hundred dollars, and ask him if its ok if you watch while he works. Most guys don't mind teaching a few tricks of the trade to newbies. I've started a lot of guys in the pinball collecting and repair business by answering their questions and helping them out a few times.
Don't pay someone to "look" at your boards if they were already once gone over by a reliable mechanic. If they work, they work. If they don't, THEN you get someone to fix them. Especially for a game that was apparently professionally shopped some time back. Most preventive work a pro might do such as reflowing cold solder joints, replacing known to fail components, etc, should last many years. There should be no need to redo that for at least 10 years or more. It is a different story with a game that has not seen service in many years. Then, each manufacturer has weak spots that need to be checked to increase reliability. But this is only really important if you are planning to sell the game. If you are keeping it in your own house and it works now, leave it alone. If and when something starts to act up, then learn what the cause is, how to repair it, and do it. This way you learn little by little rather than trying to do everything at once when you aren't really sure what you are doing.
Finally, don't forget, if you are using a repair guy who lives several hundred miles from you, you are going to have to ship your game back and forth. That will add many hundreds of dollars to the cost of the rehab. Not worth it.

I appreciate the advice! I'm hoping there is someone around who is good at pinball repair. There was one person who was really good at it for years and years but he passed away almost 5 years ago now.

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