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(Topic ID: 243878)

Surf Champ - One Star Rollover Not Counting Towards Kickout Hole


By ChipS

1 year ago



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  • 40 posts
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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by ChipS
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#1 1 year ago

I've recently developed a problem where the kickout hole is not counting the points from all 5 star rollovers. It is only counting the points from 4 of the stars.

As anyone familiar with the game knows, the star rollovers affect the scoring in the kickout hole. When all of the stars are lit, and the ball goes into the hole, it is supposed to count 500 points. When one star is scored, the kickout hole counts 1,400 - 1,000 for the star that is out, and 400 for the other four stars. This series continues until when all five star rollovers have been scored, the kickout hole scores 5,000.

But with my game, if the ball goes into the kickout hole before any of the star rollovers are scored, it only gives me 400 points. If all five star rollovers have been achieved, it only scores 4,000, not the 5,000 it should score.

By process of elimination, I've been able to determine that it is the far right star rollover in the sequence (presumably this is #5) that is the culprit. Interestingly, when the ball rolls over star #5, the light goes out, it scores 100 points for the rollover and it lights up its place in the kickout hole light sequence. It just does not add any points to the kickout hole.

I've cleaned the contacts for the Star #5 relay, the series relay, and the hole relay, but none of these has had any effect. Suggestions?
Surf Champ_Star Rollovers (resized).jpg

#2 1 year ago

That far right star rollover is indeed the #5 rollover button and does correspond to the 5B relay in the trip bank.

If you have the schematic, location F4 shows the scoring for the 5 holes. You can see that the scoring signal path is diverted via one of relay 5B's two make-break switch pairs. As written it connects to the M relay (100 pts) or when 5B is tripped, it connects to the L relay (1000) points. You said you cleaned the 5B relay switches. The other 5B make-break pair is obviously working because the #5 star light goes out at the same time the top hole light turns on at the hole (this functioning make-break 5B switch pair is at schematic section A3).

Your problem could be that the 5B scoring make-break switch pair is never (cleanly) making in EITHER the 100's position or the 1000's position. But there is so much travel in these tripped switches that I would first consider the other item specific to only that hole's scoring - the (normally open) score motor switch at 3C (with slate+red and blue-orange wires).

#3 1 year ago
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#4 1 year ago

Thanks for your diagnosis!

The switches on Motor 3c are very hard to get at - in fact, I can't even get into a position to see them, much less clean them. Is there a trick to gaining access to those switches without removing the switch stack above it? (I've never tinkered with the score motor before.)

Surf Champ_Score Motor3 (resized).jpg
#5 1 year ago

Well the motor probably can swing up 90 degress from the bottom board - look for a cotter pin to release the hinged motor frame. I've found though that doing so isn't usually that much help.

I assume you can at least locate the appropriate switch and wire colors? Sounds like you know that level C is the same level as the top circular motor disk. Get yourself a bright light and some small cut strips of white index cards to place behind the switch. This helps me focus on the proper switch. I clean with a long thin metal file and maybe some tweezers for squeezing pressure. But yes, it is a bitch in there.

Tips from others are also encouraged...

#6 1 year ago

Hi ChipS and jeffc
the JPG, motor switches actually is not much of a help. Greetings

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#7 1 year ago

Thanks, Jeff! Right after I posted that, I found the cotter pin and figured out how to tip it up. I was looking in the wrong stack and eventually realized my error.

I assume I found the right colored wires - at least the Blue-orange (easy to spot). But the age/discoloration of the wires makes it hard for me to figure out which ones are the slate+red (versus white-red, etc.) The fact that there are three different wires with red makes it hard for me. Can you point it out?

Nevertheless, I did go in and cleaned all of the switch contacts with a flexstone file, and even adjusted a couple of the NO switches to make sure they closed when they should. But it didn't have any effect on adding Star Rollover #5 to the score.

Rolf's post says MOTOR 3C "S" Position Second Sw. - Hole Score Control Switch. I should point out that the hole switch, when activated, does score points - it just doesn't score the points from Star Rollover #5. It acts as if there isn't a fifth star rollover. It works the way it is supposed to work with the other 4 star rollovers, counting either 100 or 1,000 for each activated star.

With that in mind, it doesn't seem, to me, that Motor 3C is the problem.

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#8 1 year ago

Looking at Rolf's post more closely, I see there are five switches that say "Hole Score Control Switch," which I guess corresponds to each Star Rollover. So ignore my last post.

#9 1 year ago

Rolf - sorry for the photos, but I need them to help explain.

Jeff - so here's a photo of Motor 3c. Seems to show the Blue-Orange wire (#1) and the Slate+Red (#2) which form the second switch "Hole Score Control Switch." I've cleaned them as best as I can with a flexstone file and the switch appears to work, as checked with my continuity tester. (I put the alligator clip on outside of the Slate-Red wires and used tester to push the Blue-Orange part of switch together. So the contact is clean.) But it's still not scoring for Star Rollover #5.

Can I jumper that switch with the game on and try it that way? Or will closing that NO switch cause a problem? Just trying to find out if that switch just isn't closing when it is supposed to.

Thanks!

Surf Champ_Score Motor3_02a (resized).jpg
#10 1 year ago

Yes, that is the switch - the middle of the 3 switches at motor 3C that you show circled in your pic, ChipS. I think you can jumper it closed because I think that switch is only used during the scoring for hole #5. I slipped a piece of paper in between my middle switch there and the game only gave me 4k at the fully-lit hole. I remove the paper and I then got 5k at the fully-lit hole.

#11 1 year ago

.

#12 1 year ago

So I jumpered that switch to keep it closed all the time. But still nothing. WhenIi put the ball in the kickout hole with none of the star rollovers activated, it still gives me only 400 points. And when I activate the 5th star and hit the kickout hole switch, it still gives just 400. As if it didn't exist. When I activate all star rollovers, it gives 4,000.

I went back and looked at the 5B relay, cleaned those contacts again - they seem to be functioning properly. I guess I can try jumpering them as well, just to make sure that's eliminated.

Is there any other potential culprit that you can think of?

Thanks for your time and patience! much appreciated!

#13 1 year ago

In that case I'd check out the E relay. In my schematic picture above, it is along the red line. And I kind of ignored it. The E relay is on the bottom board and you can pull it out by removing the cotter pin.

The E relay has 5 switches: 4 normally open, 1 normally closed and one make-break pair. Ensure that the make-break switch pair is working and clean. In particular, it would be the one switch in the make-break pair that is normally closed and has yellow+blue and slate+red wires.

#14 1 year ago

Just checked the E relay, especially the one switch you highlighted. It is working and clean - continuity tester shows connection with that NC switch.

Any other suggestions?

Just out of curiosity: The E relay is marked as "500 Point and Add Bonus Relay." Why does that 5th star rollover (which neither scores 500 nor adds bonus) run through that relay? What was Gottlieb's thinking behind that?

#15 1 year ago

Try connecting a alligator jumper wire from the coil voltage fuse to the sl-red wire on the e relay switch lug to see if a score relay pulls in.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Try connecting a alligator jumper wire from the coil voltage fuse to the sl-red wire on the e relay switch lug to see if a score relay pulls in.

Would also require shorting out appropriate switch on the I relay, yes?

#17 1 year ago

Where is the "coil voltage fuse"?

I did power up the game and ran my finger over one of the top rollover switches (which scores 500 and adds bonus) and it did activate the E relay. So that relay is functioning. Is that what you wanted to see?

#18 1 year ago

Coil voltage fuse (25 volts) is essentially the beginning (off the page) of the red line I've marked on the right hand side of the schematic above. It is in the bottom of the cab here:

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#19 1 year ago

Yes manually push in the I relay while doing this test.
Thanks for catching that

#20 1 year ago

Getting out of my comfort zone a bit here, but pushing I relay will start the score motor. If we jumper over motor 1A and 3C, that will tie up the scoring relay for the full motorized time, immediately scoring the jumpered section for hole 5 (if successful) but will not enable holes 1-4 to score.

Maybe force hole 5 to go to the 1k score relay and let holes 1-4 go to 100 score relay? rolf_martin_062 ??

#21 1 year ago

Best to just jumper closed the single I switch leading to the 100 relay?

#22 1 year ago

Hi
I think using a jumper-wire is useful - as jeffc . I took his PNG (post-3) - changed some coloring. See "my rosa / pink" - everything is connected - also "my dark red" - also "my light-blue". When it is hard to clip-on a jumper-wire at a solderlug on a Score-Motor-Switch: We may be lucky when using another lug. We want to test Motor-Switch-3C - lets clip-on at the middle blade on switch on E-Relay. The other end of the jumper-wire we lay on wood - not touching metal. Another jumper-wire we clip-on at coil on L-Relay, the other end of the jumper-wire we lay on wood - not touching metal. We plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- ball is kicked out - we then connect the two jumper-wires - let the motor to run (by making single, simple 500 points on an Inline) - question: Do we get 1000 points as the L-Relay actuates ? Greetings Rolf

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#23 1 year ago

I was about to try pinballdevah's suggestion, jumpering the coil voltage fuse to the sl-red wire on the e relay switch lug, and manually pushing in the I relay when I do it, and then I saw the last three posts. And since I don't have your knowledge (or ability to read the schematic), I'm a little confused.

So I should not do the test that pinballdevah suggested?

Rolf, you say to clip onto the middle blade on switch on E-Relay. That would be the sl-red wire (not the yellow+blue wire) correct? And the other end I lay on wood.

And then put another jumper wire on the coil on L-Relay, correct? (I assume it doesn't matter which lug I connect to, yes?) And the other end of that jumper wire I lay on wood.

Then I turn it on and start a game and connect the two jumper wires (the ends that were sitting on wood) and see what happens?

Surf Champ L Relay (resized).jpg
#24 1 year ago

Hi ChipS
WAIT - do not yet do "my mentioned test, post-22" --- I will write more to it. Greetings Rolf

#25 1 year ago

Gotcha. I'll wait to hear more before doing anything.

Thanks!

#26 1 year ago

Hi ChipS, jeffc, pinballdaveh (+)
You three are doing fine - as I happen to have the schematics and the manual I said to me "I do support with the Score-Motor-Switch-List". Due to post-20 / -21 I wrote in the beginning of post-22 encouraging words (Yes I also would use Jumper-Wires to force connection on parts of the circuitry). Sometimes we cannot clip-on a Jumper-Wire "not touching other solder-lugs". HowardR once came up with a trick - I tried it and it worked - the "safety pin trick". We would like to clip-on on the solder-lug - but it is a cramped place - we cannot. So we push-in an safety pin almost parallel to the running wire (leading to the lug) about 2 to 3 inches away from the solder-lug - the tip of the safety pin goes through the insulating fabric of the wire in the pin and gets in touch with the metal (wire) - NOW, THERE we can clip-on the Jumper-Wire on the "sneaked-in safety pin".

Another way to handle the problem "cannot clip-on at solder-lug of wire-Slate-mingled-with-Red at Score-Motor-Switch-3C" - In the schematics (JPG in post-22, my dark-red lines) we see that the wire-sl+red connects several places in the pin --- assuming (as a working hypothesis) this wiring is good: It does not matter if we clip-on "here" or "there" - so I suggested "middle blade on switch on E-Relay".

ChipS - the second Jumper-Wire we MUST clip-on at "Coil on L-Relay, side wire-GR-WH-RED is soldered-on" (if we'd use the other side which is two wires-black we would create a short and the fuse would / will blow).
The idea of this jumpering is "part of the whole circuitry is jumpered - part is original wiring" - IF (if, if) we get the one-thousand points we then can say "Motor-Switch-3C is good, functioning --- fault must be in part of original wiring "what we have jumpered".
The reason for "two Jumper-Wires first laying on wood - then connected" is "I do not like permanent, active jumpers when I do start a game" - a permanent Jumper-Wire may affect the Start-up / Reset stuff (((I actually have ONE Jumper-Wire - having a toggle-switch in the wire --- acting like the mentioned "two Jumper-Wires"))).

ChipS - want to do the testing (does motor-3C fires a shot of electricity towards coil on L-Relay ?) like the JPG I show here - using HowardR 's "safety-pin trick" ? Greetings Rolf

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#27 1 year ago

I gotta admit I'm getting more and more confused. Can we start over?

Suggestions on which switches I should jumper first? And what am I looking for? Should I try pinballdaveh's suggestion first?

The kickout hole worked fine until a short time ago - so I don't think there's anything wrong with the original wiring. And I haven't moved the game since it was working properly. Does that suggest what the problem might be?

#28 1 year ago

Okay - I did what pinballdaveh suggested and connected an alligator jumper wire from the coil voltage fuse to the sl-red wire on the E relay switch lug. I powered it up and started a game. The first thing I did was run a finger over one of the top rollovers - supposed to score 500 and add a bonus. But it only scored 400. Then I used a pencil and pushed in the I relay. That scored another 400 points. I tried it again and got the same result. When I disconnected the jumper wire and ran a finger over one of the top rollovers, it scored 500 again.

I'll leave it up to you guys to decipher what that means...

Thanks for your help!

#29 1 year ago

Rolf - I'm trying to follow your suggestion in post #22 and 26.

So what I think you are suggesting is that I hook up one jumper wire to the "middle blade of the switch on the E relay." That would be the blade where the sl-red wire is soldered, correct? Rather than using the safety pin, can I simply connect the alligator clip to the place where that sl-red wire is soldered to the switch blade? That's what I did in #28; it's the easiest place to connect without the alligator clip touching anything else. And then the other end of that jumper cable I lay on wood.

Then I take another jumper wire and attach one clip to the Coil on the L-Relay, the side where the GR-WH-RED wire is soldered-on. In my photo in #23, that would be where the orange jumper wire connects to the coil, correct? (That orange jumper connects the GR-WH-RED wire from the switch to the coil.) I lay the second alligator clip to that jumper on wood also.

Then I power the machine up, start a game, connect the ends of the two jumper wires and see how many points are scored, correct? That will tell us whether s motor-3C is firing a shot of electricity towards the coil on the L-Relay?

#30 1 year ago

Hi ChipS
Yes - what You wrote in post-29 - all good but not the last paragraph --- true is: You power up, start a game - wait until resetted and ball is kicked-out. You take the ball out, You make the "fifth rollover" to light-up on the Ejecthole (the original problem-zone), lift the playfield - connect the ends of the two jumper-wires (wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons)) --- THEN manually make "500 points" by actuating one of the Inlanes near the slingshots / flipperbats --- You should get the "500 points" AND the big question (as the motor turns) : Do You also get 1000 points means "through Score-Motor-Switch-3C" ? You may get the 1000 points (we are happy) or You may not get the 1000 points means we have to talk about further testing switch-motor-3C. Greetings Rolf

#31 1 year ago

Very good - thanks for clarifying that. I'll give it a try this evening (middle of the night your time) and will post the results here.

#32 1 year ago

I completed Rolf's experiment (as outlined in posts 22, 26, 30), and here are the results:

When I actuated the inlane near the slingshot, I scored 500 points plus 2,000 additional points. The score went from 100 (for scoring the 5th star rollover) to 2,600 after actuating the 500 point rollover behind the slingshot.

I reset the machine (powered off, unhooked the alligator clips, etc.) and conducted the experiment again and achieved the same result: running over the 500 point rollover gave me 2,500 points.

Add this to the results from pinballdaveh's test (post 28) and what do we have? Does this help narrow down the issue?

#33 1 year ago

Hi ChipS
thanks for doing the test - You did "as shown in the JPG in post-22". You got the 500 points as expected --- and You got TWO times 1000 points. I was expecting ONE time 1000 points from the closing of Score-Motor-3C. See the JPG here - encircled gray - is it "O-Relay" or is it "D-Relay" ?
When it is "D-Relay" then You get 1000 points caused by actuating Score-Motor-3C and You get 1000 points caused by actuating Score-Motor-1B ***. See in the JPG here "my brown lines --- please do the testing clipping-on at "solder-lug-with-wire-WH-BR-soldered-on, Switch on I-Relay" --- what do You get ? (sure) You get the 500 points - how about none / once 1000 points / two times 1000 points ? Maybe the fault in Your pin is in the hard to get at threebladed-Make-and-Brake-Switch "5B" (((And to test on this switch You may have to use the safety pin trick to "clip-on the Jumper-Wire"))).

***: To me it doesn't really matter - "switch on O-Relay" or "switch on D-Relay" --- this place in the schematics I do not yet understand --- but I gladly take the result "TWO times 1000 points" ...

Your last sentence in post-32: Hmm, it is very problematic when two helpers suggest "test"s - I assume You refer to post-15 (?).
A general rule when we test with Jumper-Wires --- other features (I mentioned start-up) may not fully work anymore - we strictly do only the test "we have prepared the scenario with the clipped-on Jumper-Wires". Greetings Rolf

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#34 1 year ago

I'm a little confused as to exactly what I should do next: You said "please do the testing clipping-on at "solder-lug-with-wire-WH-BR-soldered-on, Switch on I-Relay" So you want me to connect the jumper from the GR-WH-RED lug of the L relay to the WH-BR solder lug of the I relay?

Do I use the same method as before? I don't connect the jumpers until the game has reset and kicked a ball out? Do I also activate the 5th star? Or do I just connect the two jumpers and see what happens?

#35 1 year ago

Hi ChipS
to Your post-34: Yes, same method as before. The procedure to do a test is always as written in post-30. We need the motor to do a turn of 120 degrees (a third of a revolution) - thats the reason why I ask You to then "make 500 points" (((making 500 points is done with the help of the motor turning 120 degrees turn - and I want the turning of the motor - I do not care about the 500 points))).

See the JPg here - at AAA the test I was suggesting in post-33. When You do not get 500 points plus two times 1000 points: You then must do Test-BBB and Test-CCC (probably doing the Safety-Pin trick). Attention: Switch "5B" has exactly two threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switches - one of them is for "making points" - the other one is for the lights. The middle blade on the switch for making points has wire-yellow-mingled-with-blue soldered-on --- the middle blade on the switch for the lights has wire-white-black soldered-on --- DO NOT feed 24 VAC (for points) into 6VAC-circuitry (for the lights) !!! Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-pinside-picture-Work-04 (resized).jpg
#36 1 year ago

Thanks, Rolf! I think I understand. I'll run the tests and report back.

#37 1 year ago

Fun game, might find what is found via Google easily useful in your discussions.

https://tinyurl.com/GTB-Schematic-Surf-Chump

#38 1 year ago

Rolf - I ran the first test. The AAA test. When I ran my finger over the 500 point relay, that's all the points I got: 500.

I also did the second test, test BBB. I also got only 500 points when I ran my finger over the 500 point relay.

I'm a little bit confused as to what switch/wire I need to connect the clip to in test CCC. Is that still the 5b switch?

#39 1 year ago

Hi ChipS
thanks for doing the tests (post-38). I keep on using my naming 000, AAA, BBB, CCC etc. for tests (((shame on me, shame on my naming))). Do You see the logic in doing one after the other test --- doing the succession 000 - then AAA - then CCC - then BBB - then DDD - then EEE - then FFF - then GGG. As a result "no (two times) 1000 points" ... and then all of a sudden "getting the points".

We can do it opposite succession GGG - then FFF - then EEE - then DDD - then BBB - then CCC - then AAA - then 000. As a result "getting the (two times) 1000 points ... and then all of a sudden "not getting the points".

Either way we do the succession - we narrow down on the problem - and just at the moment we get "other result" - we are on the fault.

You have the result (post-38): Doing BBB gives the result "no (two times) 1000 points" - so it does not make sense "doing CCC" --- proceed with "doing DDD", "doing EEE", FFF, GGG --- on what test You get the (two times) 1000 points ? Greetings Rolf

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1 week later
#40 1 year ago

Rolf - I apologize for not responding. I was away on a business trip all last week and am overwhelmed with work right now. But I do greatly appreciate your advice and will continue the tests as soon as I am able. As soon as I do I will post the results. Many thanks!

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