(Topic ID: 116836)

Surf Champ! Restore- help will be needed

By practicalsteve

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by grandy
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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#1 9 years ago

Every dog has his day, mine was yesterday. Saw an ad yesterday for a Surf Champ on Craigslist. emailed the seller within twenty minutes, was off work shortly after that and said I would be there straight away with cash in hand and wouldnt even haggle. Got it for $150 and couldnt be more thrilled. I have never played the four player version to my knowledge, but have played Surfer at the PACIFIC pinball museum a ton and its in my top five.

Not asking for technical advice YET, only because the head is in my gameroom/workspace and the cabinet in the garage until I get someone to help me haul it downstairs. But heres a rundown. It turned on, a one player game would start, but the score would not reset, although you could add to the score already there. You could not add aditional players. It flipped and chimed.

Heres some pics of the head and playfield.

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#2 9 years ago

Here you can see the other noticable problem. The Dixie cup mod is not staying. Under the playfield revealed the coil missin and burnt in the bottom of the cabinet.

My new years resolution was to finally do a pop bumper rebuild, this forces that!

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#4 9 years ago

A few more pics of underneath the playfield, and the cabinet. The right side has unfortunately seen better days.

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#5 9 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Nice example, especially for the money! I'm hoping to get mine playing soon, and should be able to try to help with basic stuff once I dig out my schematic.

Thanks! I am sure I will need it!

#7 9 years ago

Ok I guess I will ask one quick question. I am hoping to be able to ultrasonically clean the flipper bats well enough to keep them.

If I can't, are there replacments at PBR? Also, I have never seen flipper rubbers that thin, if I order a rubber ring kit from PBR do they come in that size with it?

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#8 9 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Also, doesn't look like you need it, but Pinball Resource had repro plastics available as of a few weeks ago.

I saw that, but yeah mine look pretty good. Good tip though!

#11 9 years ago
Quoted from John_in_NC:

Damn nice find. Would love to have one. I for one like the 4 players, most don't, that's cool, more for me!

I dont think I have ever had to deal with such a heavy back box!

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Krud Kutter and Magic Eraser will clean those up nicely (removed from the game first of course).

Krud Kutter same as purple power?

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Yes. And inexpensive too.

Good to know! The problem with ordering parts sometimes is how MANY inexpensive things you end up buying!

Perfect.

#16 9 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Check out my flood damaged Surf Champ restoration from last year:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flood-damaged-surf-champ-restoration

Wow! That's an amazing job! Mine wont be nearly as nice, but hope to get close. You are an artist when it comes to restores.

Quoted from KenLayton:

Pinball Resource has the correct flipper bats for just $1.95

http://www.pbresource.com/flippers.html#3in

Ok, wow that is cheap. I may just buy new at that price.

Quoted from iron00monkey:

If I were you, I would just start cleaning the hell out of everything. Cabinet, plastics, playfield, hardware.

Then, take it slow, and let your cash-flow guide you.

That's the plan. cleaning first so I know what parts I may need to order and then put it back together and work on making it work. That's why I am not really asking for any help on the technical issues yet, its going to be a few weeks until I get to those.

Quoted from pinhead52:

Ive got a Surfer I need to get off of the restoration pile...

Join the fun!

Quoted from wayner:

Wow great purchase practicalsteve-I envy you!!

Every dog has his day, mine was Tuesday.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from futurepinhead:

I got one for free awhile back and gave it to my brother-in-law. We plan on restoring it together. I am going to favorite this so we can come back and look at what all you did. Are stencils available for this game?
Our technical issues sound Identical so far.
Your backglass is waaay better than mine!

Well free certainly beats my deal!

I have not looked into stencils so far, to be honest, I never really care about cabinets when it comes to pins as long as they are structurally sound. The damage to the right side wont be very visible next to my other pin. But who knows, maybe if I get it looking good enough I will try that, although I don't really have any equipment or space to restore a cabinet.

I opened up the back box last night to take a look at the glass, it is nearly perfect! there is some very slight bubbling where it says players 1234, but other than that the glass is practically flawless and the score reels are still nice and white as well. Its funny how nice the head looks compared to the cab, almost like a new one was put on at some point.

I was also thrilled to see that you can set the game to award an extra ball instead of a free game! That is a huge bonus in my book as I prefer add a ball to a free game since my game is already free.

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#22 9 years ago

Gonna have to find some of this krud cutter. What do you typically use it on, and what should I avoid? I will be sure to avoid the serial number.

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Here's an example of using it on a cab though:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/krud-kutter-and-magic-eraser-did-the-trick-on-this-em-cab

Best to experiment on inconspicuous spots first, YMMV. It's just one of several potions and elixirs that cut the time way down and provide improved results (at least for me).

looks nice! I have had great results with "Krazy Kleen" so far, except on that blood/paint.

Quoted from hoov:

IMHO, I would seal that backglass with Krylon Triple-thick crystal clear glaze #0500 to prevent any more flaking/paint loss. I usually apply one heavy coat followed by a couple lighter coats reversing direction each time. Follow manufacturer's instructions.

Oh, forgot to mention if you haven't done it before, cut card stock, etc., to cover your score reel and replay windows - place a weight (washer, coin, etc.) on top of each one.

That may be in order, I will probably tackle that later after getting it running, I will be sure to read up on the process.

#29 9 years ago
Quoted from pinwillie:

Nice score steve !!! what a perrty game

Thanks dude!

#32 9 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Try some isopropyl rubbing alcohol on that dried blood.

will try that tonight. Magic eraser didnt do much.

Quoted from iron00monkey:

That is the machine's blood!
How else is it supposed to slurp its user's life-force?
*edit -
just let me know if my super-obvious advice, and dumb jokes are too much...
but, damn, that is a super-beautiful machine!

No way, any and all advice or commentary are welcome.

#33 9 years ago

Had a chance to further examine the pop bumper remnants in the bottom of the cabinet. The large bracket looks good, the small one still attached to the pop bumper does not. Where I circled in yellow it's bent. Obviously the solenoid is garbage too. Is anything else salvageable where I pointed in blue? I could not see a way to even remove them.

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#37 9 years ago

Seeing how much this stuff costs to replace on PBR it seems like the easier way to go. Except that I didn't see the U metal bracket in the pop bumper section.

#38 9 years ago

And here's another angle of it

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#41 9 years ago

I found the metal U bracket on Marcos site, I would rather get everything from PBR but I know how it is, you can never get everything in one spot. Im not ready to order anyway until I pull everything off the playfield, then I figure I will email Steve Young and hopefully he has the part and its just not listed on the site.

#42 9 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

And the coil stop is stuck in the other end of the sleeve too. Easier to get that out first, then just tap out the plunger.
Using a bench vise to hold stuff helps.

Ok, I see now, there is a coil stop stuck into the end of the plunger in the last photo, had to look at it a couple of times before I realized something was jammed in there. I will try my best later to get it all seperated and at least salvage that bracket since it will be like $10 with shipping from Marcos when just about everything else I need will be at PBR.

#45 9 years ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

It may be melted onto the shaft.
If you are desperate...I just found these in my parts bin.

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Quoted from MikeO:

PBR will have the u bracket. It is not listed because it is not a common wear part. I have never had to replace one.

Thanks! Since the parts are cheap and I need a whole bunch of stuff from PBR anyway I am going to go ahead and try and get that U bracket from them like MikeO says they shoudl have. If they dont have that bracket, I may ask to buy that one off of you.

#52 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

Steve, when you start troubleshooting it, if you get stuck and need help, let me know and I'll drop in for a visit. I can fix those EM's easily, it's what I was brought up on. I also have a lot of extra EM parts over here.
Steve

Thanks so much Steve! I have heard legend that with jumpers and a few feet of wire you can fix any EM under five minutes! You are a good guy and I will let you know if I need any assistance in person or parts.

Quoted from MikeO:

There you go. Someone mildly local stepping up if needed. I have several of the u brackets you talk about, just that I'm halfway across the country. But PBR should have it.

Very local, less than an hour and the town I grew up in!

#53 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

I was looking at the bracket that Steve posted with the blue arrow pointing to it (post 33), from where I'm sitting it looks like one from a Williams (they are flat), not a Gottlieb which have a bend in them to make them stronger (post 34, middle pic from pinhead52).
Steve

Wait, so is my U Bracket supposed to be bent where I circled in post 33.

#54 9 years ago

One question about cleaning siderails. Do you just pry them off? Sems like s lot of potential for damage.

#57 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

The nails holding the rails on are a twist type, they are almost like a screw and very difficult to remove. It can be done but you have to take your time and be able to grab the head of the nail, pull and rotate your wrist as you remove it.
Steve

Yikes! How would you clean them then? I just got a canister of barkeepers friend which did great on the legs. Should I just tape off where they meet the cabinet?

#59 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

It looks normal to me, I was talking about the part that has the blue arrow pointing at it. I have a lot of those here, you can pick out what you want to use.
Steve

Then I will put more effort into getting that stuff out of the melted coil, haven't really tried yet. Finally borrowed a dolly and got the game all in the same room today.

#63 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

I wouldn't bother removing the rails unless you plan to repaint the cabinet. They will polish up real nice in place, you just have to be careful.

Steve

Sounds good, I usually like the path or least resitance, I will just have to be careful.

Quoted from blownfuse:

I've used a large punch to break them loose, but why bother, I have a lot of that stuff that isn't burned up looking.

Steve

Ok, sounds like I will be coming over to your house to go shopping before I place my order at PBR.

Quoted from Robotoes:

I'd try and salvage what you can...bakelite probably toasted, but other stuff looks salvageable. stuff adds up quick...

following for sure - great game.

Good advice, but Steve is practically twisting my arm to come over and raid his stuff at this point.

Yeah, stuff adds up quick, but seeing how I am only in $150 I feel like I have a lot of room to spend where I can to get thsi game in nice shape.

#66 9 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

if not taking them off, i'd tape off the cabinet REAL well and use a green scotchbrite pad to regrain them... if damage is "deep", you might need to use something more aggressive at first...
but i'd take them off... blownfuse has a real good point (and he is FAR more experienced than i) you don't have to take them off to do it, but i find it a lot easier to regrain them if i have them off lying in front of me... i made a jig out of a piece of 1x6 to hold the rail in place while sanding... ymmv...

Quoted from Wickerman2:

Yeah, if you are leaving the cabinet as is, just hit the rails with some mothers mag polish...not really any point in having pristine rails if the cabinet is scraped up. You never see the sides anyway

I ended up just using a rough kitchen sponge and "barkeepers friend" did a nice enough job for the level I was going for, meant to take pics but it got late. Will post some tonight.

#67 9 years ago

So after a minor fiasco on Sunday I got all the metal cleaned up on the cabinet to the degree I wanted. I had a gallon of evaporust I was eager to use on the legs. Went to the hardware store and bought a PVC pipe, female connect, and a male plug to try it out. Well, the plug that screwed into the female connector was not leak proof and after getting evaporust everywhere and loosing a half gallon I decide to screw that and just try some bar keepers friend instead. I was really happy with the results, and it was pretty quick and did a nice job for the level I was going for. I used it carefully on the side rails and coin door as well. Happy with the results. First pic is a before one of the legs.

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#68 9 years ago

Also I tossed the flipper buttons in the ultrasonic cleaner, first time using one, it's a great tool for cleaning. Interested to see how the star posts do.

Question: would putting the drop targets in be a bad idea? Could I potentially clean off the paint?

#70 9 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

NO!!!! nothing hot stamped or inked in the ultrasonic... it will come off... i learned this the hard way...

I figured, that's why I asked first, thanks for the cautionary tale. Any recommendations on what to use to clean them?

#72 9 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

I repainted my cab and I did my own screens but messed up when spray painting... the screen wouldn't stick so good to the cab and the lines came out wrinkly. I'll probably try to fix it somewhere down the line.

Looks pretty good to me! Thanks for the offer of help, will take you up on it if needed.

#74 9 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

yea, i have 3 perfectly white pop bumper bodies sitting here...

dirtflipper gave me a real good tip on cleaning score reels, and i have tried it on other inked things with success... use goop... the version with no abrasives in it... gop it on there good, and gently swirl it around with a soft toothbrush... rinse with cold water...

sorry about your loss! Thanks for the tip, will have to find some goop!

#76 9 years ago

I bet someone knows offhand what coil I need for the pop bumper... anyone have that stored in their memory?

#80 9 years ago

Thanks to both of you! How did I know that Steve would be all over this?

Putting together my order for PBR, damn it adds up quick! Still have more to go over before I place it, and I know Steve said he may have parts I could raid, so I will let you know before I do. Of course I will fully compensate you for anything you may have that I need.

#82 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

LOL, just come by this weekend and get what you need, I have a lot of that stuff sitting here in boxes, probably have the coils too.
Steve

I will let you know, want to know exactly what I need, and may not be able to sneak away. Are you around any weekdays? I'm off at 1:30 everyday and can be in your area by 2:00pm.

#86 9 years ago

So I worked on removing that plunger from the melted coil, put it in the vice and used a set pin to knock it out, think I'm just going to have to replace that metal U bracket...

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#88 9 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Just pull all the windings off of there and you'll be able to get to the plunger which will let you release the clip and the metal and fiber links.

I will give that a shot

Also, how do you remove the rebound rubber? Just muscle it off? Or am I missing something obvious?

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#90 9 years ago

looking at that melted coil again, I dont think any of its worth it. The sleeve and coil are REALLY melted onto that plunger, I basically was hammering the sleeve through the coil. Plus that metal U bracket is bent. I was going to get a D/C pop bumper rebuild kit from PBR which includes the plunger, fiber, and metal yoke. I believe D/C is the style I want for this game, correct me if I am wrong. However it does not include the coil stop that does come with the A/C kit, but I can order that seperately: GTB-A4862

Would I be ordering the right stuff? Not placing an order yet as I still want to make it over to Steves and raid his stash like he suggested.

#93 9 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

As for the stop pay attention to the thread diameter on the game. About the same time as Gottlieb went to the new flipper design (Surf Champ was one of the first games) they also went to a larger diameter for the stop stud. The stop Steve sells now is the previous style and you may need a new pop bumper bracket.

Thanks for the tip.

#94 9 years ago

also, any tips on cleaning star rollovers?

#99 9 years ago
Quoted from TomT:

I use the tip I read years ago take the little coffee stir straws slip them over the individual tabs on the underside of the insert then you can push the star out from underneath and give it a good cleaning.

Thats a good tip! Going to try that for now and possibly order new ones down the road.

Quoted from MikeO:

I just got word back from PBR they will have the star rollover inserts back in stock next month.

Good to know, dont know if I can wait a month, going to clean them for now and next time I do a PBR order will get a few thrown in.

#101 9 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

CPR sell the stars too http://classicplayfields.com/store-nicknacks.html ....but apparently not separately oops sorry.. maybe grovel?

Thanks for the tip! But I can just wait for PBR to get them back in stock, they are just dirty.

Did some more cleaning today, it's looking good!

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#102 9 years ago

Also two questions. Opened up the backbbox to look at the inside of the back glass closer and noticed all of the foam residue stuck to the inside. Is this worth cleaning? Is it safer to leave it? Should I get new foam as all of the old foam is smashed and doing nothing?

Last question, and this may be a stupid one. Can you clean #44 bulbs in an ultrasonic cleaner? This has the old GE bulbs and they could benefit from a cleaning, would rather clean them than replace if anyone has any tips.

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#105 9 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Don't touch the foam on the backside of the backglass. You have a gorgeous glass there and I would hate to damage it.
You can try the ultrasonic for bulbs. I never have. I have put them through a polisher though. It does take the writing off the base though.

I would rasther do nothing to the glass than anything. so i wont touch the foam residue, Should I put new foam on the board with all of the lights?

By polisher, do you mean a tumbler? I dont care if I loose the writing on them.

#106 9 years ago
Quoted from onamission:

Hey all. I just picked this machine up myself. I was hoping that someone in here might have some good shots of the wire assembly for the R, and AX relays. Someone chopped them out and replaced & a couple solder connections are broken... it is a mess..
... They did leave the original parts in the coinbox and I would like to get them back into the game... I have the wiring diagram, but i am new to this game and images would really help.

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I can take pics tonight.

#109 9 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

Yes, a tumbler.
I take 3/4" wide felt door seal and replace the foam. For it to fit properly without putting undue pressure on the glass I slit it to a thinner thickness. If you have build up of foam on the backside of the glass put the felt in an adjacent position. Or do nothing if you aren't getting any rattling of the glass. That's what it's there for.

Great advice, Thanks!

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Replace those 44s with 47s, and help preserve the glass even longer.

Plan to do that at minimum for the backglass. I bought a few different retro style LEDS from comet pinball to try out and see how I felt about them. I did not like ANY of them in the playfield, they just don't have a warm enough tone like incandescent do. Since my Plastics aren't perfect anyway I plan on using #44's for GI still.

I did however find a style of LED that I thought looked good in the backglass. The amount of light that came through was the same and the color didn't have a major shift. I may go with LEDS for the backglass. If I don't then I will at least switch to #47's.

As far as inserts one of the LED styles looked ok in them, but I don't think I want to spend the cash to redo all the inserts. Will #44 bulbs in a home environment have an adverse effect on inserts, or should I switch to #47's?

#111 9 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

from experience .. no.
I put a handful of old bulbs in a while back to test this .. nearly all of them came out dead. it *seems* the ultrasonic vibrates the filament to death. I went back to tumbling them instead - which works great

Tumbler it is. I like the idea of a "dry clean" for bulbs better than a wet one anyway.

#112 9 years ago
Quoted from onamission:

Hey all. I just picked this machine up myself. I was hoping that someone in here might have some good shots of the wire assembly for the R, and AX relays. Someone chopped them out and replaced & a couple solder connections are broken... it is a mess..
... They did leave the original parts in the coinbox and I would like to get them back into the game... I have the wiring diagram, but i am new to this game and images would really help.

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</blockquote

Sorry, forgot I had to go out to dinner until late, I can take a pic tomorrow hopefully.

#114 9 years ago

Huge thanks to Steve AKA Blownfuse for the parts! I finally got to stop by the fortress of Gottlieb, something I have wanted to do for the longest time. Had a great time talking about pinball and other stuff. Great guy and beyond knowledgable. Showed me some of the stuff he's working on and it's pretty amazing stuff. Now get that Punk! Working before PAGG!

Not going to wait so long to come by and say hi next time.

Now to place my order for the rest of the stuff I need at PBR.image-274.jpgimage-274.jpg

#116 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

Glad to help the cause, I had fun too. Don't lose that gold ball. Drop in any time (but call first to be sure I'm home).
Steve

I won't lose that ball! I have a weird white one as well (not a powerball) I may make a little display of different pinballs, don't know if I can bring myself to throw it into Surf Champ. It's the kind of ball that would look so classy in the right game, like Mata Hari or of course the game Gold Ball.

#118 9 years ago

I totally forgot to take pictures for Onamission as well. If you need more I can take some tomorrow.

#119 9 years ago

Progress will be slow this week as I wait for my package from PBR and it's my sons birthday party on Saturday in the same room as SC so I had to put everything away.

Got a question though, where it says Surf Champ in the back box how many flashers are there supposed to be? Right now there is only one at the Letters M and P. Also it doesn't want to twist out. Should these all be flashers? And what size bulb?

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#124 9 years ago

Thanks MikeO, Dirtflipper, and Blownfuse- You guys have been a lot of help so far, I am very thankful. Haven't even gotten to actually troubleshooting the machine yet, that's when I will really need your help.

#127 9 years ago
Quoted from bailorgana:

I actually snagged a SC from CL 2 weeks ago as well. Crazy. It was working when we picked it up, but after getting to my place it had a lot of issues. So I've been in troubleshooting mode basically since I got the game. Sadly, I don't think mine is in nearly as nice a condition as yours. You snagged a real steal!

Thanks! I have already put as much money into it as I paid for it, but still feel like I am way ahead!

1 week later
#132 9 years ago

Progress has been made! Got the playfield cleaned up and back together except for the flippers!

Star rollovers still need to be cleaned, or I may replace when PBR gets more in, thats why I have been putting it off.

Those are just regular incandescents in the game, my phone made them look like LEDS. I am super pleased with how well it cleaned up.

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#133 9 years ago

So, onto the technical questions.

I got the pop bumper that was disconnected with its coil toasted back together, in large thanks to steve (blownfuse) with his extra bracket and parts. Of course I put everything back together and under the playfield and THEN remembered I needed to put the new bulb socket in. After undoing everything and replacing them they both light up and are popping but I have my first question. When one is triggered they are BOTH popping simultaneously. This seems wrong, but maybe thats the way things worked on EM's or maybe my switches are just so sensitive that triggering one makes the other pop. I will say that I did not know 100% which wires to solder onto which lug of the coil that was replaced. I pretty much just mirrored the other and figured I could turn it off it locked on or blew a fuse. Is it correct that they should both be popping?

#135 9 years ago
Quoted from TomT:

That's normal for the pops.

Great! Glad to know I didn't mess anything up and that they are squared away and done. Was actually my first pop bumper rebuild.

#136 9 years ago

May as well move onto my big tech question though. I have been waiting for this until I got it cleaned up and replaced the missing pop bumper/

So here is what happens when I start a game. Coin up and press start. Score reels sound like they are trying to reset, it may even sound like it is trying longer than is normal. But the reset sequence does stop. At the end of it, player ones score has not been reset. You cannot add any more players even if you have additional credits. If you press the start button it subtracts a credit but does not appear to add a player. You can now "play" a game, pops will pop, drops will drop, things will add to the score but a ball draining will not end the ball.

I cannot remember if the ball just sits there or gets kicked out like a new ball has begun, I will have to check on that later.

#138 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

If you're stuck, PM me your address and I'll come over and help you knock this game out. I have some free time tonight. I can give you a course on GTB EM's and fixing overlooked common issues with decagon units.
Steve

Thanks Steve, not so much as "stuck" more like unsure where to start. I am never too sure about where to begin looking on an EM, this is only the second I have worked on. If you really don't mind making the trip you are welcome, if you want to just give me a grneral area to look at the switches and see if they need adjusting that works too. Sending you a PM.

#139 9 years ago

Super generous of You Steve to offer that. But after talking to him the drive during rush hour is something I wish upon no one. Anyone have an idea where I should look on my own to start?

#142 9 years ago
Quoted from futurepinhead:

Love the updates, did you have to touch up your playfield at all?
hopefully get to mine soon after my move

No, probably won't. It's in pretty great shape and I think I should leave well enough alone.

#144 9 years ago

Ok, hit a stall on my flipper rebuild, what am I doing wrong? Flipper does not want to "snap" back into place. Replaced the sleeve, bushings, coil stop, and spring.

Did not replace the plunger as it came with the wrong kind, even though the kit said it was for surf champ on PBR. although the plunger was nto worn at all so I just cleaned it.

It seems to be fine until I tighten the screws on the flipper shaft. Is there a trick to know how to gauge the flipper bats and how deep they need to go? like how you use the flipper gap tool on Solid State games? I have a flipper gap tool BTW but since teh bushing was below teh playfield it did not seem relevant.

#148 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

They took off that little plastic post on the rebuild kits--didn't need it apparently. So should be correct.

Ahh didnt realize this!

Quoted from Wickerman2:

Are you talking about the return to original position after it energizes or something else?

yes, even when power is off too, it seems the plunger is getting hung up on something on teh return about every five flips or so.

#151 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

hmmm...thats weird. You doing these 1 at a time? That's the way to go so you can compare it to the "correct" non rebuilt one for reference.

Yeah, I goofed on that. I removed the flipper bats to clean the playfield. One flipper does have all of the old parts still in it though. Just the bat was removed for cleaning.

Quoted from MikeO:

Surfer and Surf Champ were two of the very first games to get the new flipper design.
The crank arm(with the set screws) sits between the two flipper bushings in the flipper frame. The key is to have a gap both above and below the crank arm. If the crank arm is contacting either bushing, above or below, you will get inhibited performance.
Reinspect and get back to us.

That's a good lead! I have some stuff to do but I can check in a couple of hours, that seems very promising though. The more I tightened and moved things around the closer I was getting, but I completely overlooked that aspect.

#153 9 years ago

I may have figured it out, I looked at the kit online at PBR and see that there are two TOP bushings and two BOTTOM ones, I didnt realize they were all different when I put them in. What am I looking for?

#154 9 years ago

Ok, figured it out, there is a top and bottom bushing. It's very counter intuitive because the back of the plate has three divots that the top bushing fits into perfectly. I had them reversed which obviously made a difference.

#155 9 years ago

So I rebuilt the left flipper and it's working very nicely now, I noticed that screwing the coil stop about a quarter turn seemed to help for some reason. The flipper is nice and strong with a smooth return.

The right flipper is still a little sticky. It's tight enough, that plunger is still getting slightly hung up. This after I have taken it apart completely twice. I still kept the old coil plunger in it because there is no wear on them, but may swap it out for new for lack of any other bright ideas. I may try a different coil stop too, see if that helps.

As far as my reset problem, didn't get anywhere with that. I did notice that none of the bonus lights appear to be working. Also when ball drains it does kick back over to shooter lane, but does not end the current ball in play.

#156 9 years ago

I checked out the AX reset relay last night as a start to figure out why the score is not resetting, but didn't see anything obvious. Should I be looking there?

#159 9 years ago
Quoted from bailorgana:

I've been working on a very similar issue with mine as well... have you seen this?
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo

Good reminder! I watched that the day after I bought it, but never revisited it. I can see that my cursory looks at it were not enough and I need to go in and make some adjustments. Mine definetly does not "click" like clays does when he is done with it.

#160 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

I'd get the score reels all cleaned/adjusted and clean/adjust the AX--which is pretty annoying to get dialed in...

I will take a better look at the score reels as well, thanks for all the advice.

#161 9 years ago

Ok so took a look in the backbox. Z1 and Z2 are the player reset relays. I have little experience with EMs but are those switch leafs supposed to be outside the slots like that? Is that normal?

image.jpgimage.jpg
#166 9 years ago

Thanks guys, I will have to go with two out of three saying its normal. It does still function as a NC switch.

Think I may need to get steve (blownfuse) over here. Not getting anywhere so far with the score reset.

Also I am still having trouble with the right flipper being sticky. I tried a different coil stop last night and that was no help. Tried a different coil sleeve last night and that didnt help. tightened everything again and that was no help. Next step is to replace the plunger that I didnt do before because I thought I recieved the wrong ones because they didnt have the little plastic tab. Left flipper is working perfect and everything is the same on both, its maddening.

#170 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Personally, I concentrate on one "thing" at a time. I clean the entire game and deal with cosmetics--get all that ready to go and then go in to the mechanics.

That's done, all cleaned and ready to play. Then rebuilt the pops, that went well. Then rebuilt the flippers which went well except for the right one hanging up, its like every ten flips or so it does not want to return to position. Now I am onto the mechanics.

Quoted from Wickerman2:

If you don't have a schematic(get one) search the forums for the startup sequence and then you can go through it systematically to figure out the point that it fails.

I have that and the operators manual, but I am very new to reading schematics.

#171 9 years ago

A couple of small victories!

Replaced the coil plunger on the right flipper and now it's smooth as silk. Must have been something wrong with the old even though it looked perfectly fine.

When I went to turn the game on to test the flipper I was shocked when the score reset! I made small adjustments to the ax relay and z1 relays so I guess I jogged something. Although it didn't reset the other night when I tested it then.

Still not 100% though. Ball drain does not end the ball, still kicks over like it did though. Still can't add players.

#172 9 years ago

I don't see that any of the relays on the schematics control the end of ball, but I do see end of game, should I look there?

#174 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Does the bonus work? If the bonus doesn't count down then it won't go to the next ball...I think there's a normally closed switch at the end of bonus...dirtflipper would know off the top of his head.

Oh good call! I forgot that the bonus is not working at all! Looking there next, I will report back later.

#177 9 years ago

Yep, after a nice phone call with Blownfuse I need to take a step back and clean all of these steppers. The pivot points are not moving freely at all, and the rivets need a good cleaning as well. Off to the hardware store tomorrow for scotch brite pads, 3 in one oil, and super lube.

#182 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

Forgot to mention, put a rag under the stepper unit you're working on in case you drip some oil when breaking the parts loose. That way, it won't soak in and stain the plywood.
Steve

Good info, I meant to ask last night on the phone. I assume I clean these in game as there is no way to fully remove them without cutting a ton of wires, that confirms it.

#186 9 years ago

Thanks, I will have to look more closely. I watched a couple of videos online on how they work, how to clean, and the ones in the video all had snipped wires, probably because they were "parts" steppers.

#195 9 years ago

We may have a problem.

Yeah, I decided to go with the clean the rivets and lube the pivot points route. I was very excited as I could see immediately that the steppers were huge problems and not advancing or stepping down.

Looks like they haven't worked in a while but it didn't stop someone from playing it. First pic will be the bonus unit, second is the one in the bottom of the cabinet, the name of that one escapes me, coin unit?

Anyway, bot have spots where a tooth looks to have been ground down. Please say there are replacements or a way to fix. Or better yet tell me they are supposed to be like that.

image.jpgimage.jpg image-568.jpgimage-568.jpg
#198 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Supposed to be that way

Sweet! Thanks! Was getting worried when I didn't see replacements readily available! Learning new stuff.

#199 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

That provides a "stop" sort of so the unit doesn't go around and around forever---goes until there is no tooth and that's max value or whatever where you'll get a closed switch and then it'll ratchet back etc. No worries.

That was actually my hope. I thought, maybe since it's s player unit it's only supposed to move four spots. Same with the bonus reaching a max.

#202 9 years ago

Got my first goof up to deal with. Went to clean the stepper in the backbox. I marked the two Bakelite discs as to what position they were in. Then I removed the one with the shoes and cleaned the rivets. Then I manually worked the stepper unit to see how it was functioning (not great, needs to be cleaned) then I went to put the Bakelite disc back on. Realized that this is a continuos stepper so I can't hit the plunger to have it go back, and who knows how many times I hit it.

Any way to figure out where "home" is? I realize there are basically only nine positions possible, three for each position rotated three times, but now my game is acting differently and when I hit start the score motor runs continually and stepper in the backbox keeps trying to advance but it's sticking. Going to try and clean it later tonight.

#207 9 years ago

So I think I got it back the way it was. Sadly I didnt take a picture like a dummy, my phone was charging clear across the house and I figure marking the spot would be enough. At least I marked that spot though, it gave me a reference point as to where it was at one point. From there it was a process of elimination. I held the disc with the shoes in the marked position loosly and away from the disc with the rivets. Then I manually stepped the unit until the screw holes lined up ans then I would try it. This at least gave me a 33.3333% chance of being right. In one position the score motor started constantly turning, in another the something else started repeating over and over, in the last position I tried it more or less started behaving teh way it once did.

I can turn the game on and start a game, but once again it wont reset the score (which it did a couple of times) Cant add players, Wont end ball. It does now count bonus.

From now on my dumb ass will take pictures.

Also my apologies for not calling you back last night Steve, I didnt get home to look at it until after ten and didnt want to call so late.

#211 9 years ago

Had a busy weekend, thats why I didnt give you a call Steve, but I may call in the calvalry soon. First I want to clean the score stepper units like you suggested, than all of teh stepper will at least have been cleaned. A little lost though as the best way to clean them, where to take them apart.

#212 9 years ago

And so I clean the same as others with the 3M pad, and use the super lube after?

#215 9 years ago

Do I remove these covers by taking out the two screws and the C clip? This is what I'm talking about.

image.jpgimage.jpg
#217 9 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

take a couple minutes and watch videos 2 and 3 in this thread... they show you how to take them apart and put them together (h/t newmantnj).....
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/good-youtube-vid-for-decagon-score-reels#post-1059043

Great! Will watch them in a bit.

If it's not one thing it's another. Now the player one score resets, but now none of the switches score, nor do the flippers flip.

#218 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

then use super fine sandpaper on rivets,

600 grit??

edit-- nevermind, confirmed that 600 is good

#219 9 years ago

Ok two questions.

How aggressive do I want to get with the cleaning? This far enough? There's little spots of grey but I'm unsure how much I want to scrub. I'm putting alcohol on a rag, wiping around, then sanding with 600 grit.

Second. What's the little black round thing that's under the C clip in the second picture. Mine flew off upon removal and ten minutes of crawling around cannot locate it. How important and if I need to where can I get a replacement?

image.jpgimage.jpg image-362.jpgimage-362.jpg
#225 9 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

It's a spring washer and should be there to impart the proper pressure between the follower fingers and the circuit board. The Gottlieb part number is A-10703. Pinball Resource may have it by part number.
They are pretty common. You may very well be able to find a close replacement at your local hardware store. Use the washer that still exists on an adjacent score reel as a guide for the size to get.
And yes, your cleaning is spot on. Apply a bit of Super Lube to the finger path on that board before you put it back together.

Quoted from Wickerman2:

wave washer. Cleaning looks good to me. I put a tiny amount of superlube where contact is made on that as well.

Thank you both, especially for the parts info. I did FINALLY find it after crawling around another ten minutes, then I promptly dropped a clip which took another ten minutes.

I used the super lube as well.

Quoted from Jvspin:

A pencil eraser usually works well for cleaning bare copper like that too.

Good tip!

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

You've cleaned the 'common' signal (inner circle) pretty well, but the outer traces for the individual 0-9 signals may not be clean where the wiper arm contact travels. Might want to broaden the cleaning zone out a bit more. Then put a thin coat of SuperLube on the traces where the arm travels.
The small wave washer is needed. Keep looking. (A bright light, and a magnet sometimes helps.)

I noticed this too and made my cleaning area bigger. Thanks for that tip though.

Quoted from blownfuse:

I'm not a big fan of using 600 grit on etched boards, the copper traces are thin enough as it is. I think a scotch brite pad will do the job without sanding away much material. The idea is to polish it clean, not sand it.
Steve

Fine by me, I would rather use the 3M sponge. I already did all of the score steppers for the first player with the sand paper though. Thanks for the offer of the spare spring washers, good for now, but something to consider ordering next time at PBR

#227 9 years ago

Going to take one more run at my problem solo before calling in the cavalry (AKA Blownfuse).

I cleaned the first and second player score steppers and still have the same issues, three and four getting done this afternoon.

The issues as they stand.

Game will let you start one player, but no others.

All score reels will now reset if I step them up to have a score on them.

Now however the game once it resets will not score, none of the switches, flippers or pops work. Previously this was reversed, game would score and not reset.

Any ideas or should I just get Blownfuse over here?

#229 9 years ago

Score steppers all cleaned, after dropping a clip AGAIN nd looking for twenty minutes. I went down to the hardware store and bought ten of them and now I have a white sheet under my work area if I drop anything else.

Will look at the hold/tilt relays and the AX relay and player unit tonight after dinner. That is if my son doesnt take 2 hours to get to sleep again tonight!

#231 9 years ago

Is this switch supposed to be bent like this? Also is this the coin stepper or player stepper? It's in the bottom of the cabinet right in front of the relay banks

image.jpgimage.jpg image-491.jpgimage-491.jpg
#233 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

Looks like it is a coin unit, yep, the switch is supposed to be like that. IIRC, the switch opens after the 4th coin so no more coins will be taken.
Steve

Thanks Steve. I'm going to give you a call tomorrow. I have the game now intermittently adding more players. Something between the start button and the coin unit is being flaky. Seems like about 60% of the time I hit start to add a player it does. Turning in tonight though.

#235 9 years ago

Cavalry called in, Blownfuse coming by tonight to take a look. I will report back on all the mistakes I made that he finds and all of the things I missed.

#236 9 years ago

Big huge thanks to Blownfuse for helping me with my Surf Champ! I learned a lot about reading schematics tonight, tomorrow I am going to the hardware store to buy two jumper wires! He would have had the thing fixed in about ten minutes if he wasn't being so nice as to explain things and show me what's up. There were switch problems in quite a few places that I don't know if I would have figured them out on my own ever. Plus it was really great to have someone over to talk pinball with for a couple of hours.

Sadly the victory is short lived though, as I went down to play a few victory games and a new issue arises. I think (hope) it's an easy one. The score started running up on its own. This would lead me to believe that there is just a stuck switch somewhere constantly scoring.

Going to turn in for the night. Still had a blast and my pin is a million miles closer to being 100% now.

image.jpgimage.jpg
#240 9 years ago

Thanks Steve, I will only have a few minutes this afternoon to give it a look, but those are all great places to start. One other thing, when it happened it sounded like there was a loud buzz in the backbox if that clues you it anything.

Hey, at least I know it can work now right? Again, thank you so much, for the advice and for the good company.

#242 9 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

How it is adding score will direct you what to look at.
If 500 points constantly then most probably it is a drop target switch.
If random single increments that do not lock the score relay or score reel on without continuing then a very close playfield switch would be the most probably culprit.
If you can't diagnose it get us more clues/evidence of exactly what it is doing.

Good advice. I was so dead tired that as soon as it started last night I just flipped it off without looking for even a minute. Will have a few minutes this afternoon to look closer. Like Blownfuse said this got all new rubber so I have a feeling it's a playfield switch that needs a better gap.

#244 9 years ago
Quoted from bailorgana:

Just curious, what did you have to fix with the jumper wires?

didn't really fix anything per say, he showed me how with the jumper wires and the schematic you can systematically diagnose a problem. I will get the facts wrong but here's the jist of it. My apologies in advance to Blownfuse for butchering this explanation.

We weren't getting the coin unit to step up and add players. he found the coin unit on the schematic. The power was being fed from a red/white wire to everything. He placed a jumper on the red/white of the bounce tilt switch which was on the same path that had the power. we used the other end of the jumper on the coil and it fired, so that worked and wasn't the issue. the schematic told us that the red/white wire was the hot one that fed it power. then we looked at the first stop in the chain. I don't have the schematic in front of me so this is not accurate, but lets say its the U relay, and its a red/blue wire in and red/green wire out. So we looked for the switch on the U relay with those colors. We then touched the jumper still connected to the juice line on both sides and it did not want to fire, so the problem was the switch. Cleaned the switch and adjusted and that was the problem.

I almost don't want to write that in fear of having gotten it wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.

#245 9 years ago

I want to add that looking at the switch with the problem it looked perfectly adjusted. I never would have realized it needed cleaning and adjusting without using the schematic and the jumper.

#247 9 years ago
Quoted from bailorgana:

One of the steps in pinrepair.com is cleaning the switches. However, I also think he specifically says newbies shouldn't probably do it as you risk messing up all the gaps.

Exactly, from what I gathered you don't want to go in and clean ALL the switches if you are new to it, that's why narrowing down the problem to that one was helpful.

#249 9 years ago

Well I found the sneaky bastard, first one I checked, working great now!

Thanks everyone for all of the help and advice, I really learned a lot!

image.jpgimage.jpg
#252 9 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Nice...love the simple solutions. So is it 100% now?

so far so good! Played a dozen games and working fantastic. Well, one of the slingshots its jackrabbiting occasionally so I need to adjust that, and the angle of the flippers needs an adjustment, so lets say its 99.99999%

#254 9 years ago
Quoted from blownfuse:

Awesome! Let the fine tuning begin!
Steve

was I more or less correct with my very basic explanation above on how to diagnose with jumper wires?

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