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(Topic ID: 237385)

Surf Champ - Pop Bumper Switch Replacement Issue


By ChipS

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 19 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Fifty
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There have been 7 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

SC Pop Bumper switch B-17109 (resized).jpg
0Surf-Champ-Bumper-Sws-A (resized).jpg
Gottlieb 1978 Parts Catalog - Pop Bumper (resized).jpg
SC_Pop Bumper schematic section (resized).jpg
SC_Pop Bumper switches wiring2 (resized).jpg
SC Pop Bumper Switches02c (resized).jpg
SC Pop Bumper Switches02a (resized).jpg

#1 1 year ago

I'm rebuilding the pop bumpers on my Surf Champ. They worked previously, but were a little sluggish, so I'm replacing everything, including the switches.

I ordered replacements from PBR (B-17108 and B-17109). But when comparing them to the switch assemblies that were already on the game, I noticed a difference. The new switches had the tabs reversed: Old assembly had two tabs on the scoring switch (which is normally closed) with one wire soldered to each tab. The activation (spoon) switch has only one tab with one wire soldered to it.

The new switch assembly is the reverse: two tabs on the activation (spoon) switch, and only one tab on the scoring switch (NC). I checked the Gottlieb parts catalog and the new switch from PBR is exactly as pictured in the 1978 catalog. It appears to me that most/all of the parts on this game are original, but the switch assembly doesn't match.

Can any other SC owners out there check and confirm the correct configuration?

And the big question: Should I replace the switch assemblies and, if so, how should I wire the new ones?

SC Pop Bumper Switches02a (resized).jpgSC Pop Bumper Switches02c (resized).jpg
#2 1 year ago

I would give Steve at PBR a quick call. It would make things quicker if they need to be swapped.

#3 1 year ago

The thing is, the new ones I got from PBR match the image in the Gottlieb catalog from 1978. So it would appear the switches Steve sent are correct. And it would appear the ones that were on the game when I bought it are incorrect. (Yet somehow they work.)

Can anyone else who owns Surf Champ or Surfer look at their game and see which switches they have? Is mine the anomaly?

#4 1 year ago

Here's a little more info on the wiring. The two pop bumpers have a slight difference: The top bumper has one WH-BR wire connecting to the activation (spoon) switch, while the bottom bumper has two WH-BR wires connected to the activation switch.

The top bumper also has only one WH-GR wire connected to the scoring switch, while the bottom bumper has two WH-GR wires connected to its scoring switch.

I'm still too green to know if this is by design (and why), but thought I'd throw it out there to the experts, in case it means something.

SC_Pop Bumper switches wiring2 (resized).jpg
#5 1 year ago

I still consider myself a newbie, but I'm learning (slowly). I looked at the schematic and see the two sets of switches for the pop bumpers - one is NO and the other is NC. The NC pair of switches (the scoring switch) uses the WH-GR wires and the NO pair of switches (the activation or spoon switch) uses the WH-BR wires.

Looking at the WH-BR wires to the activation switch: On the existing assembly, there is only one tab. So when the ball rolls over the skirt, it pushes down the pin that pushes the spoon that closes the switch. But there's only one wire connected to that switch on the existing assembly, so how does it close the circuit?

And there are two tabs on the PBR (and Gottlieb original) assembly. So what two wires would be connected to that switch? I can't tell from the schematic.

SC_Pop Bumper schematic section (resized).jpg
#6 1 year ago

I wouldn't bother replacing those switches, they're not high current since there's an external relay they trigger.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I wouldn't bother replacing those switches, they're not high current since there's an external relay they trigger.

I agree with zacaj. The switch may have been dirty but it's unlikely to be the source of your sluggishness. Once you've removed that switch stack, it takes a little fiddling to get the spoon adjusted and centered again on the pop bumper skirt post.

Quoted from ChipS:

But there's only one wire connected to that switch on the existing assembly, so how does it close the circuit?

If you look carefully at the switch assemblies I think you'll find that in both cases one of the three solder lugs touches the switch assembly frame. The frame and the switch stack mounting screws complete the circuit to the other switch that appears to have only one solder lug. Use your meter to convince yourself that that is the case. If you compare that to the schematic you'll find that the NO and NC switches on a given pop bumper share a common wire (red-white I suspect). That wire should go to the solder lug that ties to the switch stack frame. The white-brown wire goes to the available lug on the NO switch and white-green goes to the available lug on the NC switch.

As for the number of wires on a given lug, the schematic shows a black dot to indicate a junction in a given wire. In the game however these junctions are made on solder lugs, not somewhere in the wire bundle between two devices. So if you were to move the dot in the schematic to one of the switches you can imagine that that switch leaf would have two wires soldered to it while the other switch on the same wire would have just one.

/Mark

#8 1 year ago

Correction: The new pop bumper switch you received is listed as being used on Gottlieb pinball machines manufactured in the mid-1970s. ***I'm not sure if they started using the four lug switch on 1976 model machines or if the four lug was featured on the first Gottlieb SS machines...

#9 1 year ago

But the original switch (or at least the switch that is on my Surf Champ) only has three lugs. And the new PBR one has three lugs - they are just in a different placement.

And here's the page from the Gottlieb 1978 Parts Catalog showing the pop bumper assembly. Presumably this includes Surf Champ (1976), right?

I'm not going to replace the switch, but I am curious: Can someone who owns Surf Champ please check their bumper switches? Are yours like mine, or the ones in the Gottlieb catalog?

Thanks!

Gottlieb 1978 Parts Catalog - Pop Bumper (resized).jpg
#10 1 year ago

Sorry, I didn't see that your #surf-champ has a three lug pop bumper switch...

I took a look at some photos on the Web:

1978 Gottlieb Charlie's Angels SS - four lug pop bumper switch
1977 Gottlieb Cleopatra SS - four lug pop bumper switch

Gottlieb might have used this image from an earlier catalog, because the pop bumper switch is labeled "shown."

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from ChipS:

But the original switch (or at least the switch that is on my Surf Champ) only has three lugs. And the new PBR one has three lugs - they are just in a different placement.

Are you concerned that the replacement wouldn't be historically accurate, or that it wouldn't work in the circuit? I'm pretty sure the two versions are electrically equivalent (a meter could confirm that). If that's the case either one would work.

#12 1 year ago

I found some switch stack part numbers that might help...

Referencing the first photo in post #1:

The old switch looks like a B-8704. But, some of the pinball parts Web sites list this switch as being used in Gottlieb machines up to the early 1970s. Maybe Gottlieb had a surplus of these switches and they used them in their 1976 model machines.

The new switch is a B-17109. The description states these were used on Gottlieb machines between the mid-1970s and late 1970s.

And the B-18089, a four lug dual switch, was used in the first Gottlieb solid state machines (System 1) starting in late 1977, which "should" be the switch listed in the 1978 Gottlieb parts catalog.

#13 1 year ago

The 1978 Parts Catalog I have is "Volume P" - perhaps there are other volumes? I don't know. But this Catalog is for games made from January 1973 (Jungle Life) through Jet Spin/Super Spin (no date given but they came after Centigrade 37, which is listed as August 1977, so presumably September or October 1977).

The bottom line is that this catalog and those pop bumper parts were for the mid-late 70's games - all EMs. NO SS games are listed in that catalog. (So Charlie's Angels and Cleopatra aren't relevant.)

MarkG - my main concern is how I would wire the new switch assembly, given that there are two switches in it: the bumper activation switch and the scoring switch. So if I took the existing wires of the old switch, which ones would I attach to which switch??? That's actually the question I ask in the first post.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from ChipS:

my main concern is how I would wire the new switch assembly, given that there are two switches in it: the bumper activation switch and the scoring switch. So if I took the existing wires of the old switch, which ones would I attach to which switch???

I tried to explain the details in reply #7, but the answer is:

Old switch:
- solder lug closest to the playfield: white-brown or NO switch
- middle solder lug: white-green or NC switch
- solder lug farthest from the playfield: red-white common to both switches (through the frame)

New switch:
- solder lug closest to the playfield: red-white common to both switches (through the frame)
- middle solder lug: white-brown or NO switch
- solder lug farthest from the playfield: white-green or NC switch

Essentially, the common lug moved from one end of the stack to the other.

#15 1 year ago

Thanks, Mark! I appreciate you spelling it out in detail - I'm still learning.

I am still curious if others with Surf Champ/Surfer have the same issue. Is my switch assembly standard issue on the game? I suspect not based on the Gottlieb parts catalog, but would love to know for sure.

#16 1 year ago

Chip, Just for your own information, the NC switch on the pop bumper itself is NOT the scoring switch; it is an EOS switch, designed to cut the power to the pop bumper solenoid when it energizes and pulls the plunger completely down.

The way the pop bumper system works is that the closure of the NO spoon switch (from the ball rolling onto the plastic skirt on the playfield) energizes the R&L pop bumper relay (B relay). See section 2E thru 2I (5th horizontal circuit down from the top) on your schematic.

The B relay then locks in through it's own switch and the NC EOS switches. Three of the NO switches on the B relay serve to energize the pop bumper solenoid(s) and send a scoring pulse to the appropriate 100- or 1000-pt relay (depending on whether game is set for 3- or 5-ball play). When the pop bumper solenoid pulls the plunger in, the EOS switches open, which then cuts power to the B relay and the mechanisms revert to rest state.

Lee

#17 1 year ago

Hi ChipS
see the JPG: My Surf Champ has on both pop bumpers switches "one solderlug - two solderlugs" - the Spoon-Switch has (only) one solderlug while the E.O.S.-Switch (You call it Scoring switch (NC)). This matches with the JPGs in Your post-1 (lefthand-side, "old switch").

I have the pin for about ten years - have never worked on the pop bumpers --- I do not know the history of the pin.

Im curious: Can You take apart the new-bought switch and move the "second lug" from Spoon-Switch to E.O.S.-Switch ? (((But the parts catalog JPG in Your post-9 has two switches on the Spoon-Switch ... ))) Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-Bumper-Sws-A (resized).jpg
#18 1 year ago

Lee - thanks for pointing out my mistake. I did not know the pop bumper had an EOS switch! And thanks for your very thorough explanation of how the switches work with the B Relay. I'm still trying to understand how all these things tie together, and greatly appreciate your willingness to take the time to explain it!

Rolf - thanks for the photo of your pop bumper. So it would appear we both have the same switch assembly, which clearly is different from B-17109 in the Gottlieb 1978 catalog (and the one sold by PBR). Perhaps others with a better understanding of Gottlieb and these two variations of the switch assembly can explain the difference.

I took a photograph of the switch from a different perspective which shows it is not possible (at least for me) to switch the lugs to make them line up with my current switch assembly. The two sets of switches are of different lengths, so if I swapped blade #3 for blade #1, the contacts won't line up.

I'm tempted to try MarkG's wiring suggestion in post #14, but since the switch itself seemed to be working fine before the rebuild, I think I'll just continue using the one that came with the machine.

SC Pop Bumper switch B-17109 (resized).jpg
2 weeks later
#19 1 year ago

This is kind of on/off topic, but is it possible to just buy a replacement spoon for this switch? Mine are rusted through. The rest of the switch is fine. I don't want to replace the entire thing. PBR just seems to only sell as a complete unit.

I think this is it;
[EDIT] https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/B-8546

Hmm... Maybe I'll go plastic;
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-921

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