Playing a few games on Surf Champ. Noticed it wasn't moving to ball two after ball one drained.Played a few more balls, same thing. Removed the glass and lifted the deck. Same problem manually playing a few games.

1. The ball drains and the Ball Return Unit Relay activates.
2. The ball rolls over the switch under the shooter lane and the Add Player Unit relay activates.
3. I visually examined both in action and the switches seem well gapped and execute as they should.

I have the schematic, any thoughts would be welcome.

My AX and BX relays are on the bottom panel in a line of relays that run down the right hand side of the machine. I can post a picture of the relays and the schematic. Just not sure what part of the schematic to capture. What it appears to do is behave like it's got extra ball set.

The only extra ball relay I see is in what I believe to be the bonus relay rack on the bottom of the playfield.

I'm also doing some searches. Haven't found a directly related Gottlieb post concerning next ball as of yet. Well a few, but the the ones I've found are not quite on the mark or have multiple issues, so filtering out my issue has been a challenge.

I played through a ball doing nothing and it didn't advance to ball two when the ball drained. I then played another ball and picked it up off of the playfield after it scored a bit. Lifted the playfield and manually activated the 1st ball relay. Then placed the ball back on the playfield and let it drain. Still didn't advance to ball two.

So for **** and giggles I set it to four player and asked my daughter to play. As she played it would sometimes advance to the next ball and sometimes wouldn't. It went through to the next player as it should assuming it advanced to the next ball. Kind of random. Seems like maybe a dirty player unit?

I'll take some pics.

I'll check that today, thank you

I found both switch stacks on the "O" relay loose. I tightened them, cleaned the switches and then verified that each switch seems to be openeing and closing as it should.

I took a picture of the Bonus Unit. There's a stack with two switches and a make/break. The stack is tight and all the switches seem to be operating as they should. Two open and the make/break operates when it returns to the zero position.

I see the coin unit but I do not see the player unit.

bonus unit.jpg

I took a good look at the AX and BX relays. The stacks on both needed to be tightened. The AX has a nice snap when actuated and the switches look to be adjusted properly and operating properly when actuated. The BX doesn't have the same snap and I identified at least one switch that simply stays closed when the relay is actuated. Currently I'm working on adjusting the BX switch. Per the operating instructions, both are involved when the ball returns to the drain.

The Coin Unit is right next to the chimes. Still looking for the Player Unit. Pardon my noobness.

Here is the schematic,

top
TOP.JPG

middle
MIDDLE.JPG

bottom
BOTTOM.JPG

operating instructions
OPERATING.JPG

In reading and looking that was my guess.

Here ya go...

COILS.JPG

OK, checking.

That didn't go so well. Both switch stacks were loose on the 1st Ball Relay. I tightened them and then cleaned and adjusted the switches. Now the motor continues to run unless I manually press the release on the AX relay. Looks like I have one of the switches on the 1st Ball Relay wrong? This problem might be a bit bigger than I can handle.

Looked at the AX and 1stBall again. Found one questionable switch on the 1stBall, made sense. Adjusted that and ran a few games with it in my hand watching it. The AX now unlatches and the motor stops. I now feel confident in the 1stBall relay.

I ran a few games through and the 1stBall relay does unlock after a few points are scored. Specifically the bonus rollovers at the top of the playfield. The ball has to pass over one of those to enter the playfield.

I'm not quite sure how to check the alignment of the player unit. I took a scotch brite pad and cleaned the contacts on the player unit. With the game on, I manually advance the player unit and it does step through each ball for all four players as it should.

I know this may be a little off track (troubleshooting should be a linear process) but...
So I started a game with the playfield up. scored some points. Then I activated the outhole switch and the trough switch, with my hand near the coil mechanism for advancing the player unit (being careful where I placed my hand for obvious reasons). I could feel it energize and attempt to advance the player unit but it didn't. Is it possible the coil is bad or maybe needs the coil sleeve and plunger cleaned? It does look greasy and dirty.

Also, I will attempt to take a video of the bonus unit as it advances and resets to zero.

Thanks again guys for the tips! Much appreciated

That is much appreciated SpanishSilver. I may end up needing your help. I worked a long shift yesterday so I didn't attempt much. Just a little tinkering while watching a little bit of the game. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving :0)

I found this finely written article and have been reading it backwards and forwards.
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/Player%20Unit%20Troubleshooting.pdf

I can say that when the game is started, you can watch the game cycle through all four score reels and the Player Unit steps through and lands as it should, zero'd (The coil advancing the Player Unit fires definitively without issue). Then when I play a ball and it drains, as mentioned, you can see the plunger on the coil move, but it doesn't draw the plunger in and advance the player unit. So that throws the bad/dirty coil idea out the window I guess. What's odd is if I play enough balls every now and then it will cycle the player unit and advance to the next ball.

Hopefully tonight I have some time to post a video of the bonus unit's switches and check a few more of the relays involved.

It will typically stay on player one ball one. But there are times when it will advance to the next player. Then it might remain at that player and ball for several plays. The only time it advances the player unit consistently is when you start the game.

I will hopefully have some time today to troubleshoot this further. I'm really interested in finding the issue. Quick question... can I measure the resistance on a coil with it still wired, or do I have to remove it to properly measure the resistance?

Ran a few games through with the playfield up. Did a general look through for loose wires and loose stacks. The one glaring thing I noticed. The "BX" relay never moves no matter what the machine does.

Ran two balls through on a one player game. Scored some points. Noticed the "U" 1st Ball Relay activates as it should.

1. Triggered the outhole then the trough switch. The "P" Add Player Unit relay activated and the game advanced to ball two.
2. Scored some points for the second ball. Triggered the outhole then the trough switch. The "P" Add Player Unit relay activated and the game did "not" advance to ball three.

Now if I repeatedly close the trough switch, eventually it will advance. Each time I close the trough switch the "P" relay does activate.

Locating the motor switches to check them will be tough. I've watched some videos and read about it, but there's a lot of switches there. It looks like they are 2C and 1A.

I located the 2C and 1A motor switch stacks. While hand operating the motor controller they seem to open and close as they should. they're tight. I can say that there are switches on the 1A that are tungsten. They look dark and pitted. I tried to clean them up with a points file but it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

I spent some time at Pinball Wizard talking to Sarah last night. She said I can order the switch stacks from Steve at PBR. She also recommended that I thoroughly clean all of the Jones plugs in the machine. She also said I should take a good look at the coils involved to see if there are any signs of burnt ones.

She also wanted to know if the 1A switch stack was in the S or L position. It is in the S position.

I am currently in the process of cleaning the Jones plugs.

Cleaned all the Jones plugs. Ran a few balls and games. No change, still runs the Player unit properly when the game is reset, but will not run the Player unit when the ball passes the trough switch and pulls in the Add Player relay.

Short video trying to show a close up of the 1C stack on the control motor when manually rotated. Not sure how well it shows the dark pitted contacts of the three switches on the 1A stack. The 1A is the bottom stack.

Here's a short video of the 1A stack when the machine is reset. You can hear the Player Unit in the backbox running as it should. Once again the 1A stack is the stack on the bottom arcing.

I just started a game, ran a few points by hand and then hit the outhole switch and then the trough switch and the 1st Ball relay is locking in and staying locked in through that entire cycle.

The player unit advancing as it should to it's home position on a reset.

Here's the 1A stack on the motor controller again ( the bottom stack). I hit the outhole switch three times and the trough switch three times. You hear the bonus relay rack reset with the trough switch but you don't hear the player unit advance. On a 1 player game it should advance 4 times to land on player one ball two.

I have checked all of those, but remember I don't have an experienced eye for this yet. I can say that the stacks are tight. I can say that the NC switches are opening and the NO switches are closing. Is it just important that they open and close when they should? How important is the width of that gap?

I will check the 2C stack to see if the switch dog is in fact in the "L" position.

I have a shorter jumper cable with alligator clips. I can make a longer one. My lack of knowledge with the schematic will be an issue here. I'll have trouble identifying which wires I'll use to isolate the bad switch/relay.

I'll need assistance identifying which one of the three switches on the 1A switch stack I should jump. I'm still reading about the switches that execute, trying to see where the difference is between the "Reset" and the ball drain/ add a ball sequence.

My plan this evening is the carefully and thoroughly go back through each switch we've discussed.

I agree, concerning the operation of the 1A switch stack. I look forward to taking a close look at the path you've outlined.

I will be sure to post a picture of of the score motor switches from the operator manual.

So we had a family member pass away recently and I haven't had a lot of time to work on this. I have re-checked everything we've discussed. I did remove all of the Motor 1 switch stacks to gain access to 1A and clean it. That was not fun Hopefully by the end of this weekend I can take a closer look at the path you outlined. I can honestly say that I am not sure I can isolate this problem, but I will continue to try.

the motor 2C switch's look to be tough to get to. One switch is on the inside of the mounting bracket making it very hard to see or adjust and clean.

On a side note, I mentioned the BX, Last Ball relay. I still do not see it ever latch. If I manually latch it and re-start the game it will release. I am not confident it can latch.

Also, I will post a picture of the motor switches from the operator manual tonight.

Here's the Operator Manual for the motor switches.

photo (4).JPG

Now the coin unit is acting up. I think it's time to throw in the towel. Thanks for the tips guys.

I do appreciate that. Just not a lot of experience with this.

I'm up for anything. What I need is an education. Because I'm sure I've been all around the problem and I'm just not educated enough to see it.

Sunday would work, but it looks like we have some decent snow coming.

With the death in the family and other things I've been straight out. If the offer still stands I would be happy to try and find a solution.

It sounds like Sundays are good for you. If so, that works for me also.

Had a good time at SpanishSilver's house checking out some really cool EM's, including a shooter that was so cool :0) Talked some shop and played some games. I mentioned to him something I've discovered. He mentioned a possible fix. I haven't found a good write up on it so I thought I would toss it out there.

As mentioned above, one of Surf Champ's symptoms that developed was that it wouldn't add players correctly anymore when the game start button was pressed. I looked a little closer at the coin unit. There are multiple wires soldered to wire tabs on the fixed baklite disc. Most of them are loose. So I manually advanced the coin unit to 4 players. When you wiggle some of the loose wires you can see the 2nd, 3rd and 4th players light up and go out on the back glass.

I am in the process of taking pictures and removing the coin unit to service it. I'll post some pics and welcome any advice.

pics and a vid...

When those three were wiggled the player 2, 3 and 4 would go in and out on the backglass. Actually I don't think 4 would even illuminate.

photo 1 (2).JPG

photo 2 (2)-890.JPG

photo 3 (2).JPG

The wires to the tabs, the two coils and the switch have been removed so I could remove the coin unit to fix these tabs. What would you recommend to remove all the smeared grease? Is it safe to put them in the ultrasonic?

photo 1 (3).JPG

photo 5.JPG

Place the solder here?

photo 53.jpg

I've got grease around the whole unit here and there. But yes right in the last photo I think you're correct.

Would it be safe to drop it in the ultrasonic?

Soldered and cleaned

photo 1 (4).JPG

photo 2 (3).JPG

Time to re-install the coin unit and fire up the game.

The coin unit's all re-installed. I can now set 1 through 4 players. I have a broken switch on the 10's relay and the the pop bumper relay. Those are both on order.

I'm trying lol. There was a "lockin make" switch broken on the "N" 10's scoring relay that broke. The machine also developed a crazy "100's" scoring issue. I easily found a switch in the pop bumpers relay that was the issue. While looking to adjust it the contact just fell off of the switch blade(and of course fell and disappeared in the machine lol). Both were ordered from PBResource and have been replaced.

Boy do I need a lighter soldering iron and a few small clamps to hold the relays while they're being soldered.

Still haven't isolated or repaired the next ball issue. I have continued to look and check as I've been working on other things like light sockets.

Head lamp and a cold beer, I'm going in O,o

Alright, got a little distracted last night with some work I did on the kickout hole. DirtFlipper, I've been looking at the path you highlighted. Quick question. In the picture I've attached, I have a switch highlighted. That would be a normally open switch correct? Now that means when the Score motor activates this switch will close?

switch.jpg

OK that makes sense. So in the attached image The blue path comes from a switch in the "S" relay which is the path when the reset button is pressed to start a game. That path successfully advances and zero's the "Player Unit" as mentioned.

The green path, as highlighted by DirtFlipper was a path I should check because when the ball drains the machine doesn't advance to the next ball and does not advance the Player Unit.

I see many "NC" switches which the schematic describes as 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th player reset switches. I also see two "NC" switches shown in the "Z1" and "Z2" Relays involved.

I then see the Motor 1A "NO" switch. Is that Motor 1A "NO" switch my concern?

start problem.jpg

I think I follow. So these switches... The 2C switch Highlighted in green in this attachment was where you found your problem? And the others highlighted in red are also suspect?

start problem2.jpg

That is all correct.

Even with the score motor flipped up, 2C is tough to see. I'm taking a look at it now...

Actually the "2C" stack was the top stack sitting on the top cam. Pretty easy to get to. First inspection and everything looked right. I identified the switch through the referenced colors on the schematic. I took the flexstone to it and the other switches in the stack also and then cleaned the dust. No change, no second ball. So I jumped it with a jumper wire. Still no change.

I did this for the "BX", "P", "U", and "F" switches circled in the above picture. Still no change, grrrrr lol.

Scratch that lol. Deleted that thought.

I'll give that a shot.

I made a new jumper wire that should be long enough. I attached a picture of the "U" First Ball coil. It tested ok at 22 ohms but looked kinda burnt.

Coils.jpg

Yes, "U" pulls in when the first points are scored. Also everything scores as it should including the bonus unit when the ball drains.

I soldered that coil back in the "U" Relay and the damn player unit cycled when the trough switch was triggered twice! Then stopped again lmao. I'm going to do some jumping with the long jumper cable I made last night.

Working the jumper cable. I like that jumper cable lol. So nice to hear that player unit when the ball drains! So far I do believe I have it isolated between the "2C" and the "U". I'm going to continue with this to be certain I am getting consistent results.

Alright. "2C" is the issue. Still tweaking it to get it to fire the player unit consistently when the ball drains.

Also troubleshooting a coin unit issue. Now that the player unit is advancing as it should when the ball drains, I am having issues with players and balls advancing as they should. There's a switch on the Coin Unit that opens by a bar on the Coin Unit cam when you advance the machine to 4 players. I jumped that and the machine started cycling through balls and players. OK, so I was working on that...

You're going to love this

While cycling the machine through balls and players and watching to assure it's working correctly... parts fall out of nowhere! I look and a coil stop is sitting on the bonus reset bank. Seriously! It took me a minute to find where it came from. It's the coil stop for one of the coils on the bonus unit. Now I'm in there with my magnet collecting the pieces! All I can say is wow!

Will I ever crack a beer and play this game

photo (5).JPG

I follow ya and I'm looking forward to getting back to that lol. Currently working on collecting the hardware for the coil stop and getting that mounted. I'm still chuckling over the fact it fell out of thin air :0)

Agreed lol. The coils mounted. I'll run a few games through.

Player one now advances to ball 2 and then 3 when the ball drains. One challenge met. But, there's always a but lol. It won't game over at ball 3 on a 1 player game (sorry for the 3 player typo). Being that I removed the coin unit, might I have re-installed it lined up incorrectly?

I went back to the coin unit and adjusted it. The game now starts and plays three balls correctly for all four players.

I can't thank you guys enough for all of the assistance. It's really really appreciated!

So just a little update. The machine still stops advancing the ball from time to time. I've cleaned and adjusted the "2C" as best as can be expected. The switches color is dark with a powdery residue on it. I cannot return it to what I would say is a clean or shiny condition. My plan is to order the switches for the "2C" stack and get rid of the old ones.

Quick email to PBR and looks like I will have to buy the switch blades, contacts and possibly the nylon spacer. This should be interesting :0)

The points on PBR look crowned. But it seems like most of the points I've looked at in the pin seem to have a flat surface. These are not the larger Tungsten ones. Should they be crowned?

I'll give crimping them a shot and a light clean with the points file. Thanks for the input!

Well, I rebuilt the switch in the 2C stack on the score motor. Still have the same issue. I guess I'll break the jumper wire back out and start over...

Yeah time is an issue. Hopefully I can get the jumper wire out again this weekend and give it another shot.

So over the winter I bought a guitar and have been learning to play. I decided to start monitoring the humidity in the house concerning the guitar. Over the winter the humidity level was around 17% or less. As spring approached and the humidity rose, to now roughly 47%... low and behold... Surf Champ now advances through every ball as it should.

The real question is, which switch expanded enough with the rise in humidity to complete the circuit? I guess next winter I'll find out :0) All I can say is it's nice to have my pin back scoring as it should :0)