Surf Champ - Motor Assembly Help

(Topic ID: 206752)

Surf Champ - Motor Assembly Help


By jradams76

9 months ago



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  • 49 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by wayner
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 9 months ago

So I went down to the basement to play some Surf Champ and everything seem to start ok. I noticed then that the 5 red rollovers are all out thinking that it was burned out bulbs I wiggled them and replaced a couple with known good bulbs. Then turned it back on and they were still out. I then noticed that all 5 lights toward the kick out hole are all lit up. So then I knew it was something else. I found a bolt in the cabinet bolt1 (resized).jpg. I then found out it attaches to this big motor assembly pic5 (resized).jpg I noticed there is a bolt missing on the left side. pic2 (resized).jpg I can put the bolt back but now it seems like its too small for the hole pic3 (resized).jpgpic4 (resized).jpg Is the hole now made bigger due to the wear of playing? What parts would I need to fix this? Can I just go to Lowes and get another bolt maybe bigger. The bolt is not a normal bolt as you can see. Thanks for any help.

#2 9 months ago

Update. There happens to be a nut that was on the other side still so after much contorting I was able to get the nut back on and now the 5 Red stars light up. Now I get a buzzing sound when the stars are rolled over and the lights dont go out or the bonus lights dont light up near the kick hole. All 5 roll overs give a loud buzzing when I push them down. Also if you play till your 5th ball there is a loud buzzing the whole time until you drain the ball.

Any help is appreciated.

#3 9 months ago

The bolt provides support for the sequence bank reset lever/arm. Check that the action of that arm & the sequence bank switches are operating correctly.

#4 9 months ago
Quoted from wayner:

The bolt provides support for the sequence bank reset lever/arm. Check that the action of that arm & the sequence bank switches are operating correctly.

Ok so when I turn on the machine the piston pulls the bar down to I guess reset the switches. It looks like the piston should then push the bar up to bring the bar down so that the switches can be triggered? I can manually move the bar down which is a little difficult and then when I push down one of the roll overs the light goes out and the bonus path lights up one light BUT it still buzzes when I do this. So it sounds like I didn't install the bar correctly? Or is something sticking or stuck? I dont know what or how the piece should look. I can take more pictures if it helps?

#5 9 months ago

return spring missing? cant remember if the bank has this. you do want to make sure there is no binding, bar moves easily

#6 9 months ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

return spring missing? cant remember if the bank has this. you do want to make sure there is no binding, bar moves easily

From memory there is a spring at each end of the bar. When the bolt dropped out it may have dislodged/stretched the spring/s.

#7 9 months ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

return spring missing? cant remember if the bank has this. you do want to make sure there is no binding, bar moves easily

Ok the bar does not move easily you have to apply a bit of pressure to move it up or down. Ill take a look to see if anything is getting in the way. Maybe the bar bent some when the bolt came loose? Ill check the springs too while I'm at it.

#8 9 months ago
Quoted from jradams76:

Ok the bar does not move easily you have to apply a bit of pressure to move it up or down. Ill take a look to see if anything is getting in the way. Maybe the bar bent some when the bolt came loose? Ill check the springs too while I'm at it.

The only tension on the bar is from the piston. Its like its not resetting as if I push bar up the rollovers will then go out and light up the bonus but it gives a loud buzzing noise if i push the stars down. I dont know what else to try looking at the springs look good on both sides.

#9 9 months ago

The springs need to return the bar to rest. You need to explore what is impeding that return-certainly seems a mechanical issue or misalignment of the coil retention bracket/housing causing the plunger/s to bind within the coil sleeve/s.

#10 9 months ago
Quoted from wayner:

The springs need to return the bar to rest. You need to explore what is impeding that return-certainly seems a mechanical issue or misalignment of the coil retention bracket/housing causing the plunger/s to bind within the coil sleeve/s.

Ok Ill check it out some more. Also the buzzing of the rollovers does not add to the score either so there might be an issue with scoring? If I manually reset the bar the rollover lights go off and the bonus lights for kick out hole light up but no score is added. Not sure if it ever did score over roll overs but I will take a look at that bar again. This really sucks I mean everything looks fine.

#11 9 months ago
Quoted from jradams76:

Ok Ill check it out some more. Also the buzzing of the rollovers does not add to the score either so there might be an issue with scoring? If I manually reset the bar the rollover lights go off and the bonus lights for kick out hole light up but no score is added. Not sure if it ever did score over roll overs but I will take a look at that bar again. This really sucks I mean everything looks fine.

Ok checked it out some more. Thanks for being patient with me as this is my first EM. If I pull a little to the left on the bracket that holds the piston the bar slides up and down real easily so you are right the bracket got bent. Is it safe to try and bend it back or do I just need a new bracket?

So I believe this fixes the roll overs lighting and not lighting when triggered. I cant remember if the buzz is normal when they get rolled over when they are out or if they should score points as well. They currently dont score points and buzz if ball rolls over them.

Another issue has manifested which could have also resulted in this bent bar. When I just trigger a score for players 1-4 for lets say 500 points all of them say 500 points but player 4 says something like 1420 when it should say 500. What could be causing this?

Thanks again for all your help.

#12 9 months ago

Ok can you post a pic of where the bar is bent. I am working on a GTB Flying Carpet at the moment where the upper spot welds on one side of the sequence bank reset bar have separated (just re-spotted this morning) so you need to be careful in trying to correct a bend that it does not create additional issues. Also what occurs if you relieve the tension on the two reset bar locating bolts to give a bit more play on the bar.

#13 9 months ago
Quoted from jradams76:

Ok checked it out some more. Thanks for being patient with me as this is my first EM. If I pull a little to the left on the bracket that holds the piston the bar slides up and down real easily so you are right the bracket got bent. Is it safe to try and bend it back or do I just need a new bracket?
So I believe this fixes the roll overs lighting and not lighting when triggered. I cant remember if the buzz is normal when they get rolled over when they are out or if they should score points as well. They currently dont score points and buzz if ball rolls over them.
Another issue has manifested which could have also resulted in this bent bar. When I just trigger a score for players 1-4 for lets say 500 points all of them say 500 points but player 4 says something like 1420 when it should say 500. What could be causing this?
Thanks again for all your help.

9s rollover switch on the reel could account for some of the overage since it is a p4 issue only. Also check the p4 stack on the player unit, tighten theses screws...

#14 9 months ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

9s rollover switch on the reel could account for some of the overage since it is a p4 issue only. Also check the p4 stack on the player unit, tighten theses screws...

Almost all good advice, but sorry pinhead52, I can't recommend novice EM repairers tighten switch stack screws. Especially on complex unit like the player unit, that could cause more problems than it might fix.

#15 9 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Almost all good advice, but sorry pinhead52, I can't recommend novice EM repairers tighten switch stack screws. Especially on complex unit like the player unit, that could cause more problems than it might fix.

Quoted from wayner:

Ok can you post a pic of where the bar is bent. I am working on a GTB Flying Carpet at the moment where the upper spot welds on one side of the sequence bank reset bar have separated (just re-spotted this morning) so you need to be careful in trying to correct a bend that it does not create additional issues. Also what occurs if you relieve the tension on the two reset bar locating bolts to give a bit more play on the bar.

Ok I loosened the bolt/nuts on both sides and now it moves really easily. The bolts do wobble but it slides up and down easily now. The next issue is it seems to be the scoring.

When I turn on the game and press the button for player 1 everything resets to 0's and popups and rollovers now light up and pop up. When I hit the button again for player two it adds 10 to player 1 and then player two lights up and shows 0's When I press the button again player one shows 20 and player 2 and 3 are 0's Which relay should I look at for this one?

#16 9 months ago
Quoted from jradams76:

When I hit the button again for player two it adds 10 to player 1 and then player two lights up and shows 0's When I press the button again player one shows 20 and player 2 and 3 are 0's Which relay should I look at for this one?

Start by looking at these switches.

Pinball (resized).png

#17 9 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Start by looking at these switches.

Thanks I checked those three switches and they look ok. I even ran some paper between the gaps to clean them a bit. Here are some pics.

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The last pic has shows a black box that also hums pretty loud.

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#18 9 months ago
Quoted from jradams76:

Thanks I checked those three switches and they look ok. I even ran some paper between the gaps to clean them a bit. Here are some pics.
The last pic has shows a black box that also hums pretty loud.

The black box is the chime assembly. Most relays and solenoids will self destruct if left energized very long.

If the small chime is continuously energized, then the N (10 point) relay is almost certainly being held on, probably by a playfield switch. Try unplugging the playfield Jones plugs to verify.

#19 9 months ago

HowardR - can you post the rest of the schematic? Thanks

#20 9 months ago

I suggest you do not leave the bolts loose permanently. When the bolts are tightened the shoulder rests against a bracket allowing a fair degree of free travel of the reset bar either side. You still need to establish the underlying reason for the tightness.

#21 9 months ago

Ok latest update I found a stuck spinner switch which stopped the humming noise so thanks Howardr for this. I also found player 4 switches were a little to far so adjusted them and everything works now except the tens place for player two does not trigger the 100's spot when it goes past 9. All other players work its just player two. Any ideas on where to look for this one? Its a strange one as I figured it should act the same for other players but maybe not.

#22 9 months ago

The problem will be on that 10's rollover switch. Make sure the contact surface has been lightly filed in case there is any corrosion.

#23 9 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

The problem will be on that 10's rollover switch. Make sure the contact surface has been lightly filed in case there is any corrosion.

Ok which is the rollover switch is this the switches on the back of the reels or is this switch N (for surfchamp)? So many switches

#24 9 months ago

It's on the 10's score reel itself. One of the switches will change state only when the reel is at the 9 position. This is the one to look for.

I would expect it to be normally open and close at the 9 position but that is not always the case.

#25 9 months ago
Quoted from jradams76:

the tens place for player two does not trigger the 100's spot when it goes past 9

Assuming you mean that 90 (displayed) + 10 (from playfield) doesn't give 100, there's a switch that's supposed to make contact when Player two's Tens unit is on 9. That's how the game knows when carry from 90 to 100. Most likely that switch is out of adjustment.

#26 9 months ago

Go here. Steve Fury did a great animation to illustrate how the score reel switches are supposed to operate.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-score-reel-operation-animation

#27 9 months ago

Keep in mind that Steve's animation is for a Williams Score reel. It probably also matches a Bally. But depending on year, Gottlieb did things a bit differently concerning which switches close or open and when. So, don't go reworking your switch just because it doesn't match Steve's diagram.

But what does match is that in all cases, the #9 carry over switch will close at 9 and be open at every other position.

#28 9 months ago
Quoted from MikeO:

It's on the 10's score reel itself. One of the switches will change state only when the reel is at the 9 position. This is the one to look for.
I would expect it to be normally open and close at the 9 position but that is not always the case.

Yes. And it should be the one with the black+white wire and the yellow-black-red wire.

Screen Shot 2018-01-11 at 4.48.43 PM (resized).png

#29 9 months ago

Yes I mean when score is 90 it should go to 100 but it goes back to 00 then starts over and never increments 100. This only happens to the Player 2 Scores.

If it helps here are some pics of the relay tens for the Player 1 reel and then some to compare to Player 2 reel

player 1 tens reel - This one works fine

Value 0
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Value 1
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Value 9
A47E0AD6-BEEF-4F1F-AA91-6BE99F1A6A00 (resized).jpeg

Player 2 tens reel - This one is having an issue incrementing to 100 when it reaches 9
Value 0
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Value 1
656A46B4-052C-495B-A120-74F467647618 (resized).jpeg

Value 9
37469F81-8618-4234-B5B1-8A0520A7C9CF (resized).jpeg

They seem too look ok?

#30 9 months ago

Just be conscious that 'looking ok' is often a far cry from 'being ok'. Really important for you to confirm each switch. I jumper at least as a proving point on the probable problem switch.

#31 9 months ago

Your 9 carry over is the single outside blades. Contacts look dirty. Gap seems okay. Just make sure short blade gets pushed a bit by the long blade as the score reel goes from 8 to 9. You will have to advance by hand to see motion of blade.

#32 9 months ago

You can install an alligator clip jumper across the two wires that feed that switch. With it in place, every time you score 10, you should also get 100. This will prove it is only that switch and not something else.

#33 9 months ago
Quoted from wayner:

Just be conscious that 'looking ok' is often a far cry from 'being ok'. Really important for you to confirm each switch. I jumper at least as a proving point on the probable problem switch.

Quoted from CactusJack:

You can install an alligator clip jumper across the two wires that feed that switch. With it in place, every time you score 10, you should also get 100. This will prove it is only that switch and not something else.

Good advice from wayner and cactusjack . I upvoted your posts.

#34 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

You can install an alligator clip jumper across the two wires that feed that switch. With it in place, every time you score 10, you should also get 100. This will prove it is only that switch and not something else.

I don’t have any alligator clips but I had some spare wire. Is this how you ment it? This is on the player 2 10's reel (where its not counting over to 100's after it hits 9) C06799FD-9B37-40D2-94E3-1C0AEBAE3CB5 (resized).jpeg

I hit the relay to trigger 10s and it didn’t move the 100s

#35 9 months ago

Yes, that is correct. I would have to see a schematic to direct you to other items in line with that switch.

You can also stick a small screw driver between the blades (near the bakelite spacers) just to make sure. I don't know how good a connection you may have made with your jumper. At least alligator clips can dig into the corroded old Solder.

#36 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Yes, that is correct. I would have to see a schematic to direct you to other items in line with that switch.
You can also stick a small screw driver between the blades (near the bakelite spacers) just to make sure. I don't know how good a connection you may have made with your jumper. At least alligator clips can dig into the corroded old Solder.

Ok I will see if I can get some clips or just seeing if I can get a good connection. I have the schematics just not sure on rules of posting them.

#37 9 months ago

It would seem it has been okay in the past for people (like myself) to post the portion of the schematic related to the problem at hand. I would suggest you not post the entire drawing or file.

If you can locate the Player 2 tens unit SU (step up) coil and then snap a photo of that area plus the box that shows what letters are which relays.

#38 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

It would seem it has been okay in the past for people (like myself) to post the portion of the schematic related to the problem at hand. I would suggest you not post the entire drawing or file.
If you can locate the Player 2 tens unit SU (step up) coil and then snap a photo of that area plus the box that shows what letters are which relays.

Ok I think this is the step up unit. I’m sorry I really can’t read them well and not sure why it would look like.

D038BE02-7B80-462C-96CD-12C4194A0722 (resized).jpeg

#39 9 months ago

No, that's the section for Match reading off the 10's unit wiper board.

You can go to the charts and look up the "other coils" and find Player 2 10's SU (I think that's how it will be called out). That should tell you where on the schematic (like 11-B) to find it. Then, you are looking for that symbol of all the curley cues connected together (like loops of wire).

#40 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

No, that's the section for Match reading off the 10's unit wiper board.
You can go to the charts and look up the "other coils" and find Player 2 10's SU (I think that's how it will be called out). That should tell you where on the schematic (like 11-B) to find it. Then, you are looking for that symbol of all the curley cues connected together (like loops of wire).

Sorry for all the questions. Here is the keys on the side. I dont see a SU or stepup unit but it maybe called something else.

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#41 9 months ago

sorry, I thought they spelled out all the coils. I guess they don't for the ones that are obvious to seasoned techs. But it was my mistake. That's not what we needed anyway.

A fellow pinsider was kind enough to supply the info we needed.

Looking over the schematic, Gottlieb introduced something I haven't seen them do before. There is an "on add X "Tens"" switch in series with the 9th pos. switch (see 2nd snip). I believe this is actually an EOS (End of stroke) switch that "feels" when the score drum plunger has bottomed out. There is normally an EOS to drop out the score relay (so you get a full stroke of the plunger). But there are apparently 2 sets of leaf switches on this late model game.

So, if you slide the score drum unit out, and look for a small set of leaf contacts in the middle of the metal plate, you will see a set that are hit by the plunger nylon link. If you compare the bad reel to a good one, I expect you will find one of the blades has broken off (every common on Gott. Score Reel EOS's). But it may have all 4 blades and only be out of adjustment.

scscore (resized).JPG

scscore2 (resized).JPG

#42 9 months ago

Here is a post that shows a broken EOS. But it is the single style.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-aquarius-anybody-have-a-spare-switch

#43 9 months ago

You are right there are more switches inside the reel

Player2
10621456-EE45-429A-AF64-52A034C3C1BD (resized).jpeg

Payer1
DDF8F6A5-2A8B-4194-89E6-28D6BD79A2CC (resized).jpeg

Looks like they are intact. How do you know how to align them? Just compare the two reels?

#44 9 months ago

The one closest to the plastic reel should be closed when the plunger bottoms out. This is the one that allows the carry over to the next reel.

The one closest to the coil should he normally closed and opens when the plunger bottoms out.

Since they used those thicker stiffener blades, you can't expect over-travel but there should he good pressure against it from the moving blade. Always tighten the screws before adjusting.

Drag a needle file between the points. Tug on the wires to check for weak solder joints.

#45 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

The one closest to the plastic reel should be closed when the plunger bottoms out. This is the one that allows the carry over to the next reel.
The one closest to the coil should he normally closed and opens when the plunger bottoms out.
Since they used those thicker stiffener blades, you can't expect over-travel but there should he good pressure against it from the moving blade. Always tighten the screws before adjusting.
Drag a needle file between the points. Tug on the wires to check for weak solder joints.

Thanks I will see if I can check it out again tonight or tomorrow and get back to you. Thank you and everyone else who has chimed for your help I really appreciate it.

#46 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

The one closest to the plastic reel should be closed when the plunger bottoms out. This is the one that allows the carry over to the next reel.
The one closest to the coil should he normally closed and opens when the plunger bottoms out.
Since they used those thicker stiffener blades, you can't expect over-travel but there should he good pressure against it from the moving blade. Always tighten the screws before adjusting.
Drag a needle file between the points. Tug on the wires to check for weak solder joints.

Thank you! I checked the switch closest to the coil and it looked like it was touching but it must not have been. I stuck a wire between the switches and then it triggered the hundreds to increment after 9 rolled on the tens. I bent the metal switch just a little to make sure it was touching when the plunger was pulled. It not scores correctly. Thank you so much! Thank you everyone!

7E561972-8F37-4279-A4CF-C2966D9E79C9 (resized).jpeg

#47 9 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Almost all good advice, but sorry pinhead52, I can't recommend novice EM repairers tighten switch stack screws. Especially on complex unit like the player unit, that could cause more problems than it might fix.

sorry but you do need to tighten the screws on the stacks of the player unit... shall we take a vote?

#48 9 months ago

In theory, one should always check and tighten ALL switch stacks before doing any checks or adjustments.

#49 9 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

In theory, one should always check and tighten ALL switch stacks before doing any checks or adjustments.

Absolutely & frankly if someone posts on this site seeking advice the above advice should be given. I find it difficult to imagine that someone 'seeking tech help' here would not have the life skills to be able to tension a switch stack appropriately & without negative consequences.

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