Vancouver, BC
and now when i tried left coin mech .. special kicker is firing
its firing when i manually trip any of the switch bank relays ...
??
(Topic ID: 96513)
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Sure Shot
Gottlieb, 1976
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Twin Cities, MN
OK, so now need to focus on the ball not kicking out.
Tilt will stay on and no flippers until ball kicks out (needs to pass over the ball trough switch, which causes the Ball Count unit to step to Ball 1, and also closes the ball count zero position switch, which activates the playfield).
The coin chutes are now set to just start a game; the replay button for starting is still an issue, but that's isolated for now.
The Ball Return relay is 'O' (oh) on the schematic.
The AX relay needs to be unlatched, and a NO switch must be closed to get much of the playfield alive. So that's still suspect. Can you confirm it's unlatched? And are the switches now adjusted OK?
Then it also looks like the Bonus Unit needs to be reset, so that the 15th position switch is closed (although this might be unique to Bank Shot; would need to confirm on Sure Shot's schematic).
i wiggled the power feed to the knocker ... its not making the sound anymore
but hit the left coin mech it subracts a credit then puts it right back ..
Quoted from manitouguy:i wiggled the power feed to the knocker ... its not making the sound anymore
but hit the left coin mech it subracts a credit then puts it right back ..
So one thing to bear in mind about doing a systematic and methodical approach is to not wander off wiggling and poking things randomly. 
(at least not yet)
There are enough variables in play as it is, and changing multiple things all at once makes it very difficult to retrace steps back to a known state. When some behavior changes (good or bad), you'll want to know which one thing caused it. If a bad behavior appears, then you can go one step back and undo it, or at least know the one spot.
I fear there are now many tweaks intermixing, so it might be prudent to start at the beginning again?
yes sorry ..
i'll behave, don't give up on me lol
i appreciate your patience and help dirt .. that knocker thing spooked me and came out of left field, i should have left it alone ..
Quoted from manitouguy:all six switches on ax relay are NO and it is unlatched
On the schematic, on the left side list of relays, next to AX, AXR, under the contacts column does it say 6A, 2C? If so, then that means there should be six NO switches, and two make/break switches, total eight switches, not six.
Quoted from manitouguy:relay o contacts at 1b and 6a?
On the same table, does it say 1B, 6A next to the 'O' relay? Or just 6A? If it says 1B, 6A, then that means there is one NC switch and six NO switches (quantity and type, not location). That's also different than Bank Shot (which only has six NO switches).
Quoted from manitouguy:but hit the left coin mech it subracts a credit then puts it right back ..
One of the two coin mech trip wire switches might be stuck closed now. Best take a look. It shouldn't subtract and then add a credit.
schematic at relays
at ax, axr it says 5a, 1c
at o relay it says 6a,1b
bonus unit steppr under playfield? wheel with 15 positions - is that the unit you are referring to
when game was 'working' (use loosely) earlier, the start sequence would cycle through 15 clacks, resetting that bonus unit i think .. it has not been doing it since
at end of each ball it is supposed to count bonus but didn't seem to be scoring the bonus properly either - just fyi, not trying to go off on another issue
left coin wire, when flicked gives a credit which is then taken away
credit reel is at 9 credits (can i manually reset to zero?)
all three switches on credit wheel are Open - fyi
Quoted from manitouguy:at ax, axr it says 5a, 1c
OK, so five NO and one make/break switch then. Might double check the make/break switch.
(and which means that Bank Shot is different enough than Sure Shot that I won't be able to get super specific.)
Quoted from manitouguy:bonus unit steppr under playfield?
Yep. Manually reset it to the zero position (I think that should be a single plunge of the reset coil, and the spring will zip it back around to the zero position).
uuuuughh ... when looking at my own photo ...
noticed tilt was set to 'per ball'
i had moved that earlier since that was only score card i had
i forgot about that ... just moved it to per game
game is now live , ball in shooter lane and flipper live
oh the shame ... sorry
let me see what the status is now
Ah, that probably knocked out the Hold relay ('R', mentioned some number of posts ago I think?), and if the Ball Count unit isn't in the right spot, then the replay button won't work (R needs a switch on S to close in order to re-energize, but S needs either a switch on R closed or one on the Ball Count unit).
Good find though.
thanks so much Dirt
i'll pick it up tomorrow and learn some more, but boy i learnt alot today with this machine!!
lower slings are scoring both 10 and 100 at same time
bonus after ball scoring seems suspect
right kicker hole light doesn't come on when special is alternating
ball in play 2 light and game over light aren't lighting up
only one switch is activating chime bar, and only occasionally
BUT .. even the half baked game play is FUN and even the playfield art has grown on me - it looks pretty all lit up
more tomorrow on chasing down these other, maybe more 'minor' gremlins!!
thanks again
Ron
ok a fresh new day ..
off to work but tonight if i have time i will tackle the next item .. and this time be careful to not create any new issues!
here are a few i noticed - which should i chase down first ...
score reels are no longer resetting .. i can play a game but scores don't go back to zeros when i start next game
knocker isn't firing for specials
100,000 light not lighting up when score exceeds
lower slings are scoring both 10 and 100 at same time
bonus after ball scoring seems suspect
right kicker hole light doesn't come on when special is alternating
ball in play 5 light (loose connection) and game over light aren't lighting up
only one switch is activating chime bar, and only occasionally
Quoted from manitouguy:ok a fresh new day ..
off to work but tonight if i have time i will tackle the next item .. and this time be careful to not create any new issues!
here are a few i noticed - which should i chase down first ...
score reels are no longer resetting .. i can play a game but scores don't go back to zeros when i start next game
knocker isn't firing for specials
100,000 light not lighting up when score exceeds
lower slings are scoring both 10 and 100 at same time
bonus after ball scoring seems suspect
right kicker hole light doesn't come on when special is alternating
ball in play 5 light (loose connection) and game over light aren't lighting up
only one switch is activating chime bar, and only occasionally
Score reels not resetting would be the first thing I think. Make sure AX is tripping after S activates.
Check the 9th position switch on the 10's reel to make sure it's only closing at the 9th position (for the 10s and 100s scoring at the same time issue).
Check bulbs and bulb sockets first for the lighting issues.
I'm away tonight though. Good luck!
ok, will work on score reels reset ... that was working when i first started tinkering ... will see if the ax is firing once the s relay does ...
ok, no success yet on the score reels resetting,
and i need a better description of what the score reel switches should be doing as i cycle through the digits
appears they are activated same for most digits but for 0 and or 9 the switches open a bit differently??
i did notice the first wire on score reel one had come unsoldered so i soldered it up
regards, Ron
thanks Dirt, i will go check these .. fell asleep on the couch!
should this be the same for score reels, tens, hundreds, thousands and ten thousands?
Ron
ok check, all switches gapped and now reels scoring as they should, no 'double scoring'
now,
score reels still not resetting at start of a game
bonus not counting out and scoring properly after each ball
no chimes sounding at all for any playfield actions
which to deal with next? the score reel reset??
Quoted from manitouguy:score reels still not resetting at start of a game
This.
Is AX tripping after S activates at game reset start?
If the score reels are each set on '1', when a game is started, what do they all do? Do they each advance continuously and the score motor just runs? Do they not move at all? (and the score motor just runs)
Need more specifics.
Quoted from manitouguy:not sure - i can't see behind the machine when i push a button to start a game ??!?
AX is a latching relay. Plenty of time to hit the start button and get to the back to look.
reels all set to 1s - 11110
hit replay button
score displays as 12220
hit button and look behind as fast as i can at ax ... can't see if anything happened but ax relay has six switches all on Open
Are you familiar with how to distinguish the latched position from the unlatched position on AX?
In the latched position, the armature with the switch stack is pulled in, and 'latches' onto the other armature.
Need to know which position it's in after trying to start a game. (Maybe take a picture of it.)
Is the score motor continuing to run or no?
The one you took of it here is unlatched:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sure-shot-run-through-where-do-i-start-lots-of-hand-holding-required/page/2#post-1761106
score motor does not continue to run
i believe the armature is not 'pulled' in but in relaxed state
picture coming ...
Quoted from manitouguy:here is a photo
That's in the latched position. If you pull down the other armature, the switch stack should pop back up.
But the switches don't look adjusted correctly. Looks like there's an open switch that should be closed.
ok will check
yup some were open when should have been closed
i gapped them to close
tried another restart
now score motor runs continuously ... i must have missed one?
Actually, if I zoom in, it looks like none of those switches are closing when in the latched position.
Here's a quick way to consider checking a switch. If the armature plate pulls in, and a switch never changes state (e.g., never closes or never opens), then that switch won't be able to perform its job.
So when that ladder stack pulls down, if none of those switches work, then lots of things aren't going to be working.
The score reels all need to reach the zero position first, then the AX relay will unlatch, and then the score motor can stop.
sorry yes, more than one needed to be adjusted
so now it appears all are open, when assembly is then latched, all are closed
game tries to reset all to zero at restart - the thousands reel did not reset to zero and the score motor continued to run
i tried a bit more adjusting - game reset to zero
then when i tried another replay the tens didn't reset ..
keep going...
Make sure the switch stacks are tight, the contacts are clean, and that there's a good, solid open/close on the switches. Good strong light helps.
ok will keep fiddling for a bit
have to run (need to get to the driving range!! golf tourney tomorrow and i need to get some strokes in lol)
will try again in a couple hours - but it seems it just needs a bit more adjusting
then maybe the bonus is next to tackle??
as for sound - on the knocker i can see a small very fine wire appears broken to one of the contacts of the coil .. might that be the culprit there??
thanks again for your help
Ron
Knocker or chimes? I thought the chimes weren't working?
I'd do the chimes next. Those are controlled directly by a switch on each of the L, M, and N relays.
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