(Topic ID: 96513)

sure shot run through .. where do i start .. lots of hand holding required!

By manitouguy

9 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

SSResistors.jpg
258988-i.jpg
schem d ss.JPG
schem b ss.JPG
schem a ss.JPG
schem c ss.JPG
schem a ss.JPG
man 2 ss.JPG
man 1 ss.JPG
man 3 ss.JPG
scem 3 ss.JPG
schem 1 ss.JPG
schem 2.JPG
photo 1.JPG
photo 2.JPG
ax.JPG
There are 143 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 9 years ago

hi all - i have posted a bit on the cosmetics clean up of a 'rougher' sure shot i picked up on a bit of an 'impulse buy' the other day that i am regretting a bit .. but trying to make the best of it i figured it is time to learn how to really get into understanding my ems top to bottom and the proper process for getting one running properly when it won't start!

this is i am sure is a good idea so i don't burn my place down .. just ask jason

at any rate - i have no idea where to begin on a 'project' run through and someone far wiser than i said i should just give the machine and every switch and relay the once over, systematically rather than trying to chase problems which could likely create new ones ...

so, i have the manual and i have the schematic ... where do i start ? what do i do first ?

here is the low down on where machine is at ...

i removed two mods - a button wired to 15amp and kick out hole ..? and one wired to coin door too

i resoldered those older wires / connections

power on

backbox lights up

press start button

playfield lights up but ball does not fire into shooter lane

finger flip ball into shooter lane, a chime sounds??!? and flippers are activated

no ball in play light lights up

on playfield most items register a score ... the lower slings actually award 10 points and 100 at same time! and chimes don't typ sound on any

i suspect the good old ax relay is all gummed up, and the sequence bank that tracks the rollovers and pool ball 'rack' somehow isn't fully awake either

lots going on and lots to sort ... but where to start on a systematic approach??

calling em gurus - come to my aid

can take pictures as needed too

cheers, Ron

#2 9 years ago

ok, step one ...

check the fuses and re-check the fuses!!

my eyesight is pretty bad and i have a hell of a time reading fuses - the previous owner had placed 30amp fuses in all the fuse sockets

at score motor i had put in the correct ones .. i think!

i just checked the two on u/s playfield - i believe they are supposed to be 5amp but alas were both .. you guessed it .. 30 amp

i had one 5 amp and one 6 amp i put in there

at least now the start button pops the ball into the shooter lane (no idea if that was related or not lol!!)

small progress ... what next ... off to tinker more

#3 9 years ago

Some general tips to get started:

- make sure all the stepping units can move freely and correctly (e.g. ball count, score reels)
- make sure the score motor is able to turn. Home position is where the switch stack at position 1 is in a 'notch'
- manually reset all score reels to 0
- manually reset any relay banks (bracket full of relays with a large solenoid with reset plunger and bar)
- manually reset the ball count unit to the zero position
- check all the fuses and fuse holders
- check everything with a plunger (flippers, pop bumpers, slings) to make sure they can move freely
- check for any obvious loose wires
- check all the anti-cheat and tilt switches (some should be NC, some NO)

Now when you power up and start a game, there's less for the reset sequence to have to do. It should kick a ball out to the plunger. When the ball passes over the ball trough switch, the ball count unit should step once to Ball 1, and the playfield should become active (e.g. flippers work).

Sounds like part of that works. When you manually flipped the ball into the shooter, one thing to check is whether the Ball Count unit stepped once. The Ball 1 light could just be burned out.

Check if any relays are stuck on (hearing a humming sound), or if any score reels are stuck trying to step.

Need to check all the switches on the score reels, to make sure the three that control the zero position, 1-9 (runout), and 9th position are all working correctly. If you're getting both 10 and 100 at the same time, it could indicate that the 10's 9th position switch is closed, or that there's stuck scoring switches on the playfield.

As for doing it systematically, I'd suggest focusing on the ball kickout first. Getting a game to reset, start, count 5 balls, and go to Game Over are the hardest part. Everything in between is just scoring stuff, and can be isolated.

When just starting out, this 'top down' approach is OK, but realize that there are likely multiple issues all happening at once. Eventually, the switch stacks all need to be tightened, all the switch contacts burnished, all moving parts degunked, lubed, etc. It becomes easier to just do that all first (i.e., 'bottoms up') and catch all the simple stuff before even powering it on. But I digress...

Good luck!

#4 9 years ago

thanks Dirt -

i think the initial check list is 'ok' here

stepping units turn freely (AS relay may be suspect ..)

score motor turns freely

score reels reset to zero

ball count resets to zero

fuses ok .. one 4amp in place of 5amp right now ... (it and 6amp seemed to work ..! in place of the 5)

plungers .. ok

no loose wires visible

all tilts ok

power on, back lights up

start button, ball ejects to shooter lane, chime sounds? ball stepper moves through positions, at last position (game over) still ejects a ball but no flipper power? only ball in play light 4 lights .. all new bulbs

after every ball i hear the 'bonus' trying but reals don't move

i will check all the relays - they likely need cleaning / adjusting? and i bet the sequence bank and as are messed too

i do hear a hum ... sounds like from front end somewhere as well!

#5 9 years ago

The ball going over to the shooter shouldn't activate a chime. Does a score reel move as well?

The coin lockout coil in the front door may have a small hum to it; that's ok.

After the ball is kicked to the shooter, check in the backbox and make sure that none of the L, M, or N relays are locked on.

Sounds like it has a 'dead ball after Game Over' issue too. I have a post on that here somewhere (search EM Hangout for 'extra ball after game over' or such).

#6 9 years ago

the 'hold' relay was super hot ... maybe that is normal cause i had it powered on and was typing away here

dumb question alert ... how do i check in back box to see if l,m or n are 'locked on'?

#7 9 years ago

L relay was 'locked shut' - melted plastic and it had grabbed and couldn't return to NO position

freed up

now no chime on start up

ball in play lights seem to be advancing correctly

10 point sling still scoring 10 and 100

1000 is firing chime, 10 and 100 are not

all balls on 'rack' light properly except for 1, 2, and 3 balls

more slow progress

#8 9 years ago

ok i noticed this and am trying to understand what is going on

left kick out hole kicks ball out, right does not

when ball goes in left hole the 'left hole' relay fires back and forth, score motor moves and ball kicks out

when ball goes in right hole the 'right hole' relay only fires forward but doesn't 'return' to original position, score motor does not advance ...

gapping on the right hole relay looks to be same as left hole relay .. is it the relay needing adjusting or a switch somewhere on score motor??

#9 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

ok i noticed this and am trying to understand what is going on
left kick out hole kicks ball out, right does not
when ball goes in left hole the 'left hole' relay fires back and forth, score motor moves and ball kicks out
when ball goes in right hole the 'right hole' relay only fires forward but doesn't 'return' to original position, score motor does not advance ...
gapping on the right hole relay looks to be same as left hole relay .. is it the relay needing adjusting or a switch somewhere on score motor??

When the ball lands in the right kickout hole:
- the kickout hole switch closes
- the G relay should activate
- G locks on via its own switch
- a switch closing on G should run the score motor
- the right hole kicker should fire when a switch at score motor position 4C closes, but also requires a normally closed switch on D
- a switch opening at score motor position 2B deactivates G
- score motor stops running

So first thing to check is whether G is activating.

edit: oops, I see you say that the right hole relay is firing. I guess that's G. But the score motor isn't running, so I'd check the switches on G. There's a normally open switch that might need cleaning and/or gapping.

#10 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

L relay was 'locked shut' - melted plastic and it had grabbed and couldn't return to NO position
freed up
now no chime on start up
ball in play lights seem to be advancing correctly
10 point sling still scoring 10 and 100
1000 is firing chime, 10 and 100 are not
all balls on 'rack' light properly except for 1, 2, and 3 balls
more slow progress

Have you checked the chime unit to make sure the plungers aren't stuck on the rebound pad? (or otherwise stuck)

Otherwise the 10 point chime is activated via a NO switch on N, and the 100 pt chime via a NO switch on M. The switches could need cleaning and/or gapping.

Always a good idea to tighten all the switch stacks, clean the contacts, and verify the gaps/operation (use a good strong light, they can 'look' ok, but not quite be opening or closing).

For the sling scoring both 10 and 100, check the 10's score reel 9th position switch and make sure it's open except when on 9.

#11 9 years ago

dirt, i hear a click, and g relay 'activates' in that it moves to close all its switches ... then nothing happens

i had checked the gapping and cleaned the contacts on g

maybe i need look at the score motor .. 4c?

#12 9 years ago

ok right kick now kicking .. thanks dirt

next ones

no chimes are sounding at all right now

slings still score both 10s and 100s

end of ball bonus doesn't seem to be counting, nor scoring when ball goes in kick outs per wich balls in 'rack' are lit

off to fiddle some more

#13 9 years ago

how do i check that my gapping on the switches for ax and jx relays are correct??

i just 'adjusted' them and now start button doesn't start up a game (ball doesn't get kicked into trough??)

i think those were the only two i fiddled with, cleaning the switches

#14 9 years ago

Are you asking *how* to check if a switch is opening or closing, or are you asking how to check whether a switch *should* be opening or closing?

(AX and JX are interlock switches, so when latched, the NO switches should be closed/the NC switches should be open, and when unlatched, the switches should be in their 'normal' state.)

Use a good, strong light and look at the switches closing/opening from the side view, at different angles.

#15 9 years ago

i am wanting to know what they should look like before they are activated, opened or closed

it looks like on both the ax and aj all are NO until activated then they should all close

the first switch though as an extra leaf on outer edge, as the switch activates should that one seperate or go 'along with' as they all go to closed?

sorry that likely doesn't make any sense

maybe i will take a couple of pics

i get a credit, hit start but i am no longer hearing the reset sequence in scoring, score motor and the ball doesn't kick to trough - i am hoping it is the ax or jx that i might have messed a bit?

#16 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

i have no idea where to begin on a 'project' run through and someone far wiser than i said i should just give the machine and every switch and relay the once over, systematically rather than trying to chase problems which could likely create new ones ...

Sorry for coming to the table late here but the above quote gets my vote. This is the routine I go through on most games that come through me. On a truly project game this is a must. You'd be amazed at how many issues you find on a game with this approach, neglected or otherwise.

The head is easy. Set it on a workbench, pull up a stool, a beer is optional, and go over every switch on every relay, score reel, and stepper. I first tighten the relay stack screws, then put a hard point file across every contact pair, then check for proper gap and wipe. Next on to the score reels. Put the hard point file across every contact pair then check for proper gap. Next on to the steppers. Make sure they advance up and down properly. Scrub the rivet heads on the ball in play or player unit, then apply a small amount of super lube. Lube the metal to metal pivot points of each stepper with Tri Flow teflon lube. Obviously rebuild anything mechanical that is not right or worn or missing.

The main relay board is next. I pull it totally out of the game. Be careful pulling connectors off of coils. On the newer Gottleib games where the coil bobbin is plastic it is easy to pull the solder tab right out of the bobbin. Same sequence as for the head minus the score reels. One relay at a time - tighten the stack screws, hard point file across points, check for gap and wipe and adjust accordingly. Then on to the steppers. Be sure to check any switches on the steppers. Replace the power cord if it is not grounded.

On to the playfield after this. Same routine for what is there. Check all of the playfiled switches for proper gap and wipe.

Be patient and methodical. You'll be amazed how many issues you will surface along the way. Keep in mind that most switches don't need adjusting. Get a feel for what proper set up is.

I'd say the above is a solid 3 hours or so if you have issues to reconcile as you go. If things are lined up properly then less time.

Once I have all of this done then I plug it all back together and see how well I did. Then, if there are issues still, come back here.

Mike O.

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

how do i check that my gapping on the switches for ax and jx relays are correct??
i just 'adjusted' them and now start button doesn't start up a game (ball doesn't get kicked into trough??)
i think those were the only two i fiddled with, cleaning the switches

Go back and check gap on each switch on each of those relays. It should be clearly opened or closed at each position. Clearly closed means at least 1/32" of wipe but not much more. Clearly opened means at least 1/32" of gap but not much more.

#18 9 years ago

thanks MIke

although not quite as thorough as that, i was taking the time to go through each ..

i had a fair bit solved and somehow just did something that now is keeping the game from starting up

i get credit, hit start button and ball doesn't go to trough ... i don't hear the clankety clank of start up sequence either

i was checking the ax and jx relays ... and was thinking maybe that was what might be part of the culprit per my confusing post above about the first contacts in the first of the switch in the ax relay..

#19 9 years ago

JX is the 100,000 relay, so that won't affect startup (but should be unlatched).

AX will though. Is it in the unlatched position?

The 'extra leaf' is the switch 'override' and is just there to help close the real switch blade when the ladder stack is pulled down.

The switches' correct position is self-evident; if the long blade is on top of the short blade (i.e. the long blade gets pull down onto the short blade), then that should be NO; if the short blade is on top of the long blade (i.e. the long blade gets pulled away from the short blade), then that should be NC.

I think AX has six NO switches and two make/break.

#20 9 years ago

they all seem fine on the ax at NO then to all closed when pulled down ... that first extra leaf stays closed with the first switch when pulled down...

ok maybe i need to step back .. what else might i have touched that the ball is now no longer going to trough and i am not hearing the start up sequence ... hmm

#21 9 years ago

If you manually trip the Start relay, does the reset sequence take off?

#22 9 years ago

if i manually trip it score motor turns and sequence bank bar resets .. but ball counter does not move into ball one position and score reels don't clickety clack (but they are all at zero and tilt light is staying on too)

#23 9 years ago

i took my file to carefully clean some contacts on score motor .. maybe that gapped something ever so slightly it shouldn't have .. grrr

#24 9 years ago

Score reels won't move if at zero already, and ball count won't advance until ball goes over the trough switch. So that sounds correct.

That suggests the path to the Start relay via the replay button now has an open in it. Check the anti-cheat switch on the coin door and the bounce switch on the bottom cabinet board to ensure they're both closed.

If the coin door still has the coin mech trip wires, try starting a game with the left one. That bypasses some logic path.

Also make sure the Hold relay (R) is on.

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

i took my file to carefully clean some contacts on score motor .. maybe that gapped something ever so slightly it shouldn't have .. grrr

Could be. Switches at positions 1C and 2B need to be closed.

Having fun yet?

The first one is challenging, but this is how we learn. Follow along on the schematic too, and make the association between what's there and what you see on the game. In this case, you're working on the path from the Start relay back to the 15A fuse (and there are seven switches on this path - a more complex one.)

#26 9 years ago

both cheat switches closed as should be

left coin mech wire credits one but doesn't kick ball

how do i read schematic to find switches 1c and 2b .. i 'll try and find and see that they are closed

oh, i'm learning ...!

#27 9 years ago

Look at the lower left side of the schematic for a picture of the "motor switch positions".

The positions are numbered 1-4 clockwise around the bracket (should be labeled on the bracket too).

The switch levels are lettered A through E, bottom to top, and are 'fixed' positions, not relative (i.e., level C is always the one aligned with the top cam, not the third switch stack up). There may not be switches at every level (and usually aren't).

So 1C will be a switch stack that rides on the top cam edge, and 2B will be a switch stack that is one below that level, but on the next bracket post clockwise from position 1.

#28 9 years ago

1c .. six switches - should all be closed?

and 2b - 4 switches .. all closed too?

#29 9 years ago

1c has 5 outer switches closed, inner most one open

2 has inner 3 switches closed but outer one open ..

#30 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

1c .. six switches - should all be closed?
and 2b - 4 switches .. all closed too?

I only have a Bank Shot schematic, so it might be different in this detail, but down in the lower left there's a table that has rows of positions, and columns of levels.

The cell for position 1C has 1A, 5B, and "S" pos.
This means one NO switch and five NC closed switches, and the dogbone should be in the S slot of the dogbone bracket. ['A' = NO; 'B' = NC; 'C' = make/break]

The cell for position 2B has 1A, 3B. So one NO and three NC.

Now, check those cells on your schematic and see what they say.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

1c has 5 outer switches closed, inner most one open
2 has inner 3 switches closed but outer one open ..

OK.

Is the Ball Count unit reset to the zero position? If it is, step it once (or more) so that it's not. Then with a credit on the credit unit try pressing the replay button.

#32 9 years ago

ok,

cell 1c lists 1a,5b, 's' position

cell 2b 1a,4b

sorry no idea what you mean by dog bone??

thanks for your patience!

#33 9 years ago

gave that a try , no ball kick out .. no cycle for start

#34 9 years ago

dogbone is what Gottlieb calls the black metal lifter that rides on the score motor cam and raises/lowers the switch stack. It sits in a silver metal bracket that kinda looks like a flat tuning fork.

#35 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

gave that a try , no ball kick out .. no cycle for start

OK.

On the bottom cabinet board is a small jones plug labeled "1st Coin Chute Adj." and I think it's currently plugged into the spot labeled "2nd Chute Adj."

Move this plug over to "1 coin 1 play".

Then try tripping the left coin mech wire.

#36 9 years ago

oh ok cool, i see that dog bone on every switch stack - most are in s position a few in the l position, out further ...

#37 9 years ago

There should only ever be one in the 'L' position (2C). All the others should be in the 'S' position.

#38 9 years ago

yes, moved jones over to 1 coin one play

hit left wire makes sound but does NOT add credit

2nd chute peg is on 1 coin

2nd chute relay peg is on '2 plays'

#39 9 years ago

yes only one in L position

#40 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

yes, moved jones over to 1 coin one play
hit left wire makes sound but does NOT add credit
2nd chute peg is on 1 coin
2nd chute relay peg is on '2 plays'

OK, then that means the S relay didn't activate then, right? (i.e., tripping the left coin mech wire didn't cause S to pull in).

I'll post a snippet of the schematic so you can see the path to debug.

#41 9 years ago

s relay does activate, resets sequence bank bar but credit wheel doesn't advance so no credit to start game when i hit the front replay button on door

maybe a switch in the credit wheel in back?

#42 9 years ago

there are the three switches behind horseshoe credit wheel, all NO

right coin door switch advances credit by one with each flick ..

#43 9 years ago

tilt light still on backglass..

#44 9 years ago

Here's the path that goes through the replay button:
Replaypath.jpgReplaypath.jpg

Here's the path that bypasses most of that and goes through the coin mech switch:
Coinchutepath.jpgCoinchutepath.jpg

When the coin chute adjustment plug was in the "2nd Chute Adj." I think you said tripping the left coin mech added credits.

If that's true, then everything up to that plug must be working (i.e., 1C, 2B, anti-cheat, bounce, fuse). Putting the plug in the 1 Coin 1 Play spot then goes directly to S, so if that still doesn't work, then that suggests the S relay itself has an issue.

If you press the switch ladder on S to activate it manually, does it stay locked on, or does it just spring back out?

#45 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

s relay does activate, resets sequence bank bar but credit wheel doesn't advance so no credit to start game when i hit the front replay button on door
maybe a switch in the credit wheel in back?

Oh wait, then that's good. That means you can start a game then. The credit wheel won't advance in this setting, since it's set to 1 Coin, 1 Play (i.e., it just starts up).

So put the ball in the outhole and go.

#46 9 years ago

ball is in outhole, but it won't kick it out to plunger when i hit the replay button, it stays there and flippers don't go live, ball in play doesn't go to one etc - that is what i have been trying to get it to do,

was doing it fine earlier then stopped when i diddled with something somewhere

#47 9 years ago

We'll revisit the replay button path later. It's one of four switches as highlighted in the top picture above (between the S relay and score motor switch 1C).

#48 9 years ago

pressing the s relay 'tray' activates score motor, s springs back out after that

#49 9 years ago
Quoted from manitouguy:

ball is in outhole, but it won't kick it out to plunger when i hit the replay button, it stays there and flippers don't go live, ball in play doesn't go to one etc - that is what i have been trying to get it to do,
was doing it fine earlier then stopped when i diddled with something somewhere

Don't hit the replay button. Trip the left coin mech.

#50 9 years ago

ok, so don't use the replay button - sorry

if just using the left coin mech wire ...

2nd chute is on 1 coin

2nd chute relay is on 1 play

flick it s fires and releases and score motor turns .. tilt light stays on backglass

no power to flippers

ball does not get kicked to shooter lane

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 4.00
Playfield - Decals
UpKick Pinball
 
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Vista, CA
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
There are 143 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sure-shot-run-through-where-do-i-start-lots-of-hand-holding-required and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.