(Topic ID: 311020)

Superman - Not booting, Beeping

By MaxAsh

2 years ago


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  • 52 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 32 days ago by dza33
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There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

Hey All - working on a new project. I picked up a Superman and I'm starting to dig into it. There are several issues at a glance, but I'll go over some of those later, in more detail.

On power up the GI comes on, and almost immediately you hear a repetitive beeping sound (about two seconds apart) from the speakers, and all four status LEDs on the MPU blink at the same time as the beeping. The single LED nearby is on solid.

No other signs of life at the moment. I haven't been able to find anything about the beep code (if that's what it is) or LED flashing meaning. I welcome any useful thoughts or advice, as my experience with Atari is very limited.

Boards are very clean, batteries were pulled decades ago and the game has just been sitting for a long time, I was told. I can post a video of the beeping/LEDs if needed.

#2 2 years ago

Some additional info which may or may not help:

- I found a lot of cut wires scattered around the game. Details:

* Several were to various solenoids (kickout, outhole kicker, left flipper). None make sense, since you could just remove the spade connector from the lug and it would have the same effect, but people do strange things.

* The Coin Door wiring is completely severed. Again, didn't make much sense since there's a connector right there that could be reached and disconnected, but all the wires were simply cut. Start button and coin door switch itself are sill hooked up fine, but the coin mech switches, lights, test switch, etc are all cut.

The solenoid's being severed wouldn't stop the boot or cause the beep thing I'm getting, I assume, but I'm wondering if the severed coin door (and lack of test switch) might be an issue? I would think it would still boot if it could, but wanted to provide this info just in case.

I'm reading through the wiki, but help is welcome

#3 2 years ago

Video of the beeps/LED blinking can be seen here. Sorry for the loud beeping sound, it's what I'm stuck with on the game right now. I can control it with volume, but left it loud to make sure it was in the recording.

#4 2 years ago

Best thing to do when you have a non booting game is to measure all the voltages in the game. Helps to know if any issues are because of low voltages.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/images/7/7f/Atari_pinball_troubleshooting_guide.pdf

Pinwiki has only a small bit of info on Atari game repair, but at least linked to the above repair guide.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Atari_Repair

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Video of the beeps/LED blinking can be seen here. Sorry for the loud beeping sound, it's what I'm stuck with on the game right now. I can control it with volume, but left it loud to make sure it was in the recording.

I had that happen when I changed the fuses. I put one in the wrong space.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Zartan:

I had that happen when I changed the fuses. I put one in the wrong space.

Zartan You had the exact same thing? No booting, beeping, and the flashing LEDs like that? Do you happen to remember which fuse? What a strange thing to happen just because of that.

Edit: rechecked all the fuses and they were all correct. I installed some new ones anyway, since I had them. No change sadly.

#7 2 years ago

My GI wasn’t working, so I changed my fuses. When I changed them. It beeped like that. I immediately unplugged it and looked at the fuses I changed and switched one out. It stopped. I haven’t done too many repairs to my machines. I’m not the best person to ask. Just told you what happened to me.

Quoted from MaxAsh:Zartan You had the exact same thing? No booting, beeping, and the flashing LEDs like that? Do you happen to remember which fuse? What a strange thing to happen just because of that.
Edit: rechecked all the fuses and they were all correct. I installed some new ones anyway, since I had them. No change sadly.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

batteries were pulled decades ago and the game has just been sitting for a long time, I was told.

Try a new set of batteries in it for the hell of it. I don't know if this is one of those games that needs batteries in order for the game to boot up.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Try a new set of batteries in it for the hell of it. I don't know if this is one of those games that needs batteries in order for the game to boot up.

Doesn't hurt to try, will do. I'll report back on voltages too.

#10 2 years ago

I could not find any mention of test points for the voltages in the manual on the power supply or the aux board, with the fuses. I hadn't had a chance to check the power supply schematic yet. Unless I read over it, I could not find what the 4 flashing LEDs meant. I hope it means the memory is blank.

It has been well over 5 years since I worked on an Atari Hercules for a friend, so unfamiliar these days on where to measure the voltages.

#11 2 years ago

There are several test points on the board, I should be able to do some testing when I get up tomorrow morning and report back the findings.

Superman_Power_Dist (resized).jpgSuperman_Power_Dist (resized).jpg
#12 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

There are several test points on the board, I should be able to do some testing when I get up tomorrow morning and report back the findings.[quoted image]

Ask @zerbam, Colsond3 , ForceFlow and you will get your answer! They are genius level wizards!

#13 2 years ago

Indeed, they have helped me many times in the past!

Inserting batteries had no effect, as expected, but it was worth a try. So I tested the voltages originally, but I missed one. And, of course, it's suspect. Not sure if it's high because the game isn't booting and not under load on the relayed items? Test Results:

5 VDC Test Point = 5.02 VDC
12.5 VDC Test Point = 12.51 VDC
50 VDC Test Point = 51.08 VDC
*** 7 VDC Test Point = 12.15 VDC

I believe the 7 VDC is lights related (inserts), but I could be wrong. Looks like it might go to displays too?
Superman_Schematic_7VDC_Disp (resized).jpgSuperman_Schematic_7VDC_Disp (resized).jpgSuperman_Schematic_7VDC_Inserts (resized).jpgSuperman_Schematic_7VDC_Inserts (resized).jpg

#14 2 years ago

I’ve changed the power supply plugs on both of my older machines. I don’t know if that might help?

#15 2 years ago

since you have +5v, you may want to check the clock pins on the MPU and reset pin - with a scope @ clock, logic probe on reset

if reset is high - not pulsing (watch dogging), look for activity on address and data pins

thinking its a 6502 machine (Nope wrong - just to correct and clarify, looks like its actually a 6800), but its been a long while since i actually had one here for repair

#16 2 years ago

Isn't there a watchdog bypass trick on these? I feel like I read that. Should I be concerned about the 7VDC being so high causing boot issues?

edit: 7 VDC not VAC

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Isn't there a watchdog bypass trick on these? I feel like I read that. Should I be concerned about the 7vac being so high causing boot issues?

There were a lot of troubleshooting tricks in the Atari manual. Was hoping the 5v was an issue, as you show it is not.

That may depend on what as you are using as the negative reference on your meter. Don't think you should be using the game ground to measure the AC voltage accurately.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

There were a lot of troubleshooting tricks in the Atari manual. Was hoping the 5v was an issue, as you show it is not.
That may depend on what as you are using as the negative reference on your meter. Don't think you should be using the game ground to measure the AC voltage accurately.

Apologies, I wrote 7 VAC, but meant 7 VDC as shown in the diagrams.

#19 2 years ago

you should measure the +5v dc on the power pin of any 74 series TTL on the main logic board, ac is not used for power on the main pcb but it is used for the playfield lamps & coin door lamps, you want 4.90-5.05v dc ideally

watch dog trick you say? Atari did provide a WD Test Point, you can use a logic probe to determine its state at the test point vs the reset pin and ground or pull-up to change its state but that will not usually help much in locating the issue causing the watch dog to bark unless the issue is located in the watch dog circuit itself which in that case the fault will be discovered by grounding the WD and seeing no change at the reset pin

see sheet 2 / side A

https://www.ipdb.org/files/2454/Atari_1979_Superman_Schematics_paginated.pdf

#20 2 years ago

The one tool I have failed to use enough in my arsenal is my logic probe. I'll dig it out, but I admit to being a bit of a novice using it, simply because of lack of need (miraculously) over time.

#21 2 years ago

I have access to a second Superman pin now, also a project, but mostly because the MPU is corroded. Checked the voltages on that power supply, and the 7 VDC test point was also showing similar numbers, around 13 VDC. Maybe this is normal? Can another Superman owner confirm on their working game, perhaps? Thanks!

Since I have the spare corroded board, I could always swap some of the socketed chips that are clean, if that's a suggested idea. Should probably do more testing first though.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

the 7 VDC test point was also showing similar numbers, around 13 VDC.

Where are you connecting the ground lead on your meter? I almost seem to recall 6+ years ago this measuring 9 volts on the Hercules after I repaired that game. If I recall, it only affected the displays being out when I didn't have this voltage.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Where are you connecting the ground lead on your meter? I almost seem to recall 6+ years ago this measuring 9 volts on the Hercules after I repaired that game. If I recall, it only affected the displays being out when I didn't have this voltage.

I tried the Ground test point on the board, as well as cabinet ground. Cabinet ground showed no reading at all, board-based ground was the 12-13VDC reading

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I tried the Ground test point on the board, as well as cabinet ground. Cabinet ground showed no reading at all, board-based ground was the 12-13VDC reading

Being that you measured it the same way in the other game and get the same result, likely it is good. This very well might be an unregulated 7 volts. If it is, then likely it can vary from game to game. Hopefully, one or two other owners will post some results. I just don't have an Atari game available near me to test.

#25 2 years ago

Yeah, I'm hoping someone that has one will chime in soon. I appreciate the stuff suggestions so far!

I tried the MPU in another Superman, same exact result. Guessing the MPU is the issue based on that; the question is what might be wrong? I could steal the socketed chips from a donor parts board, but I'm not sure that will help much if I don't isolate the issue first.

#26 2 years ago

It does seem the MPU had an issue. Yes. It is worth trying the other socketed parts from the other board.

What are the status LEDs doing on the corroded MPU?

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

It does seem the MPU had an issue. Yes. It is worth trying the other socketed parts from the other board.
What are the status LEDs doing on the corroded MPU?

I haven't tried hooking that one up. Given the corrosion, I assumed it may not be worth the effort. Here are some pictures of the spare, corroded board I have on hand. If you think it's safe to try the corroded one, I can give it a shot.

Also including a pic of my clean board that's not booting, and having the beeping/LED flashing shown in the above video.
Superman_Number2_Corroded (resized).jpgSuperman_Number2_Corroded (resized).jpgSuperman_Number2_Corroded1 (resized).jpgSuperman_Number2_Corroded1 (resized).jpg

Superman_MPU - Copy (resized).jpgSuperman_MPU - Copy (resized).jpg
#28 2 years ago

Would be nice to see the corroded board give different results, which I definitely would lean toward the 7V not being an issue.

#29 2 years ago

Looking closer at the corroded board, it looks like the big capacitor is swollen, and possibly even leaked a little. I'm thinking it's a bad idea to try and hook that one up, so I'm going to leave that one be. I can steal the socketed chips from it, if someone thinks that's worthwhile.

Otherwise I'm open to next steps?

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I can steal the socketed chips from it, if someone thinks that's worthwhile.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Yes. It is worth trying the other socketed parts from the other board.

#31 2 years ago

Missed that, sorry! Okay, worth a shot. I was just nervous about damaging good chips if there was a voltage issue or something.

#32 2 years ago

Your 5 volts measured good, which is what would be used on the MPU board. I don't see the 7volts being used on the MPU at all.

#33 2 years ago

Swapped the ROMs (one at a time), no change. Bummer.

#34 2 years ago

I see there is at least one 40 pin IC in a socket.

#35 2 years ago

I swapped the 4 socketed chips on the upper right, one at a time. I have read the RAM could be an issue, but those aren't socketed unfortunately.

#36 2 years ago

I definitely would swap the 40 pin CPU chip

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I definitely would swap the 40 pin CPU chip

No luck with the CPU either, sadly

3 weeks later
#38 1 year ago

Been a while since I provided an update. After doing some testing, and not having much luck or making progress, I decided to send the board out for repair. It's been out a couple of weeks, and so far it's been confirmed that there is indeed something wrong. Further diagnosis/repair is in progress. Fingers crossed I receive some good news soon.

#39 1 year ago

Excellent. I was out of ideas since I only have limited repair experience with that CPU board.

Who did you send the board to?

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Excellent. I was out of ideas since I only have limited repair experience with that CPU board.
Who did you send the board to?

Someone down your way, actually. It is a Texas repair shop that does Atari, and has good feedback from what I can tell.

#41 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Someone down your way, actually. It is a Texas repair shop that does Atari, and has good feedback from what I can tell.

I actually do not who that is, despite being in the hobby since 2008.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I actually do not who that is, despite being in the hobby since 2008.

"HoustonPinball" is the name, Cesar is the guy I have been communicating with. He tested everything out, confirmed the board needs repair, and is waiting on backordered ICs, etc. No ETA at the moment, potentially 2-3 weeks he said. I sent him a second, more damaged (corroded) board as well at the same time.

#43 1 year ago

cesar and his crew are good with superman boards......he has repaired my boards and spare boards

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

"HoustonPinball" is the name, Cesar is the guy

All these years and I have not met a Cesar at any pinball event or tournament.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from zerbam:

cesar and his crew are good with superman boards......he has repaired my boards and spare boards

Good to know! All the reviews sounded great, so I went in hopeful. Fingers crossed he can rescue both.

My only concern is that I haven't been provided any price quote for parts, and yet he said stuff was on order/backorder. I figured he would let me know what the cost estimate was before tackling any ordering or repair, as I was under the impression the initial fee covered diagnosis/labor, but parts would be separate. Hopefully I'll hear more soon. I know it can take a while, so I'm just checking in now and then for updates. He's been good about letting me know what's up when I do.

1 month later
#46 1 year ago

I finally have an update! Need some advice too.

So I ended up with two nice Superman projects. I bought a new board, put it in the game that looked like it was the most likely one to boot up, and it did, so that's a win.

The other game has the board I've been discussing in this thread. So I'm trying to decide if there's a safe way for me to install the new board in the other game to test it. The original board was clean, but didn't boot. The new boards are pricey, so I'd hate to throw it in the other game and risk damage. I know my power supply voltages are good, so it's more about gambling nothing downstream could damage the new board.

With some games I could just disconnect the driver board and anything downstream, so that I could just test if it'll boot. I get the feeling with this game though, that's not as simple? Anyone know? I'd love a way to check it out without risking the new board.

1 year later
#47 46 days ago

Time to update this thread Tugce here is the update I promised.

Anyway, I bought this exact game from MaxAsh back in June 2022. For a variety of reasons, I did not have time to set it up until the end of 2023.

When I did get it set up, it was displaying basically the symptoms described in this thread.

One thing to note is that the MPU board had a significant number of socketed chips on it. MaxAsh tells me that he sent this board out and it got returned BEFORE getting fixed. That would account for the socketed chips.

So:

1. I can't completely tell the story of what was wrong because some of those socketed chips might have been part of the issue.

2. When I got the game, however, it was still "watchdogging". You could see this since pin 40 of the CPU was toggling. This is the reset line (active low).

3. The first thing I did was look through all the watchdog related ICs.

4. I thought there might be an issue with the 74LS42 decoders at E4 and H4 (which had been socketed). However, swaping out those chips did nothing.

5. Next, I thought about the counter at M2 (74LS393). Again this was socketed. Swapped and nothing.

6. Finally I also looked at the OR gates at F4 (74LS32). Again no dice.

These were all "easy" checks since they were already socketed and part of the watchdog logic. I had hoped it would be the M2 74LS393 counter since even though the logic probe was toggling, you can't really tell if a counter is counting correctly with a logic probe.

At this point, checked a couple other things.

1. The ROMs. I pulled them. Ah ha! Some of the pins were broken. Burned 3 new 2716s with the code here - https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2454 - naturally this did not fix the watchdogging but would have needed to be done anyway.

2. I pulled the 6800 CPU. It had a resoldered VSS line (pin 1). I figured this was a problem waiting to happen so I replaced the processor. Again, not going to fix the watchdogging but needed to be done.

At this point, I realized, I needed more help. So I burned the test ROM here - https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Leon_Borre_Atari_Second_Generation_Repair

Of course it was not working but it helped me to diagnose some issues.

The next thing I did was pull and socket N7 and L6. These are 74LS244 chips. They are buffers of the output of the CPU. Replacing these did NOT fix anything. I wasn't hopeful but at this point, I had to start somewhere.

Next I went to the 74LS160 counter at R2 that starts this all going just downstream of the clock. Replaced it. No good.

I pulled F6 (74LS04 inverters) and M1 (74LS74 flip flop) since again, these are some of the last chips not pulled in the watchdog circuit. Still no good.

Finally, I pulled L2 (74LS393). This is the counter "upstream" of the M2 counter I tried earlier. THIS STOPPED the watch dogging.

Bottom Line: Replacing L2 got things to work. BUT I am listing everything else since naturally they could have been part of the issue. Who knows. At least now it is documented.

So at this point it was not watchdogging anymore.

However, it was stuck in test mode and the game lights (other than GI) were out.

I'll post how I fixed this next...

#48 46 days ago

Next up fixing the fact that this was stuck in test.

One of the things I had to do with this game was re-attach ALL the wiring on the coin door since someone CUT all of it. Grrrrrr. It was a pain but I did it. Thanks to MaxAsh for providing what was cut at least.

In doing so, I could trace the test button all the way back to the I/O board. Therefore I could see that when I pushed the test button it was toggling. However, the test line was still stuck??

This led me to the test point on the MPU board. You can ground this point to put it into test. It was stuck to ground??

So I pulled H7 (74LS244) and replaced it.

Got out of test!

The game was running!

However, none of the lights were going....

#49 46 days ago

The issue with the lights not working was that the F7 buffer (7407) was stuck. This was messing with the IORESET signal.

Pulled and replaced F7 and then the whole thing fired up!

At this point all is working except a couple lights are out and a couple solenoids (one pop bumper and the kickout to start the game). I think these are just bad transistors on the IO Board. I'll pull these and check. I'll only repost if it is something non-obvious that fixes them (you can easily figure out what light or coil goes to which transistor on the schematic).

Anyway, it took me a while to get this working but it was satisfying that I did get it to work without sending out the board.

At this point I am a Generation 2 MPU board expert. I should start doing repairs

I'll post some pics when the whole thing is working since I also completely cleaned up the game along the way (painting, cleaning, etc.).

#50 46 days ago

That's awesome! Really glad you were eventually able to sort it out. You did far better than I would with it, so I'm happy it went to the right home. As you noted, the board went to an "Atari Repair person," but they returned it to me still not working. They made attempts, but then I believe they told me normal life changes made it so they didn't have time to finish the repair anymore. It's possible they just got stumped as well, who knows? Regarding the coin door wiring, yes I was frustrated when I saw that as well. If you've been in the hobby long enough, you've seen wiring to a head cut off usually, but the coin door is a little less common in my experience. Glad I could at least provide the portion they cut out for you!

Great job, and thank you for sharing. I'm sure someone down the road will find this all useful. Enjoy the game!

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