(Topic ID: 334337)

Super-Flite not collecting bonus

By currieddog

1 year ago


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  • 64 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 12 months ago by currieddog
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There are 64 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

It steps up and down fine, but doesn't collect bonus when the ball drains (VERY occasionally it does). The bonus relay does trip every time.

SM switches all clean and set. Looking all over for a short or loose wire since it does collect once in a while, but not finding anything.

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

It steps up and down fine, but doesn't collect bonus when the ball drains

Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

#3 1 year ago

Mine did the same. It was the switch on the double bonus relay (On the big bank) that needed to be gapped a little closer.

#4 1 year ago

Thanks all. I had checked that circuit but the sw. on the Dbl Bonus was just slightly open.

Now it collects all double and triple bonus points but sometimes leaves out the final 1000 on regular bonus. Also, when the ball goes thru either gate the points just run on til I turn it off. Should be 5000.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

when the ball goes thru either gate the points just run on til I turn it off. Should be 5000.

What happens if you activate the 5000 relay manually?

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

What happens if you activate the 5000 relay manually?

Got that fixed. Remaining problem is that inconsistent final 1000 Bonus.

Thanks!

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

nconsistent final 1000 Bonus.

Slow motion cellphone video could be helpful

#8 1 year ago

I think that the bonus relay is dropping out too soon or the outhole relay is pulling in too soon.
Bonus relay is held in with bonus unit zero position blade switch. Check switch that it opens properly at zero and not before. Adjust switch if needed.
The outhole relay pulls in when the bonus unit wiper disc reaches zero position. Check alignment of disc that the wiper isn’t touching or very close to the zero position rivet or pad when still on position 1. Adjust alignment of disc if needed.

#9 1 year ago

The big problem is that it is intermittent. It always collects all of double and triple bonus, likely because they are so deliberate, but can miss anywhere in single bonus countdown so I'm thinking the fingers on the bonus unit.

#10 1 year ago

The fingers all seem to be adjusted correctly, but full bonus collection is still intermittent.

#11 1 year ago

The bonus unit seems going too fast when it counts down. Still missing anywhere from 1-3 or even four depending on the starting number. I tried undoing the spring a rotation or two but no difference.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

The bonus unit seems going too fast when it counts down.

A single bonus count should have a regular cadence while counting down: 1-2-3-4-5-pause-1-2-3-4-5-pause, etc. because pulses are coming from the Score Motor Imp-2 (Inpulse-2) switch as highlighted in @howardr's schematic earlier.
Super Flite Bonus Count (resized).jpgSuper Flite Bonus Count (resized).jpg
If you're getting extra pulses, it might be because some of the double or triple bonus pulses from Score Motor switches 1B, 2B or 3B are getting through because the Make/Break switch on the Double Bonus relay switch might be gapped too close. If you block the normally open part of the Make/Break switch do things get better?

/Mark

#13 1 year ago

It sounds like the bonus subtract coil isn’t firing correctly on 1x bonus. On the score motor impulse cam switch A pulses the subtract coil. Check switch for pitted contacts and loose point to blade connections. Clean pitting with metal file if needed.

#14 1 year ago

It doesn't seem to be doing that countdown, MarkG. It's very quick. Springs a possible? I've cleaned and checked Imp-A several times.

HowardR: Slo-mo vid:

#15 1 year ago

Full speed. This collected 6/10.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

It doesn't seem to be doing that countdown, MarkG. It's very quick. Springs a possible? I've cleaned and checked Imp-A several times.
HowardR: Slo-mo vid:

The wiper doesn't look to be stopping on the rivet centers. The stepper mechanism may be dirty or otherwise sticking.

#17 1 year ago

I agree. It looks like some kind of mechanical issue where the stepper occasionally takes more than one reset step per pulse. I'd investigate the reset arm, its travel range, the escapement arm that should keep the gear from taking more than one step and the spring arrangement that drives them.
Williams Resettable stepper (resized).jpgWilliams Resettable stepper (resized).jpg
They could be bound up with old grease, there could be wear or extra play, or they may not have been reassembled correctly if they had been disassembled.

#18 1 year ago

The unit is nice and clean and moving freely; also talked with Steve Young who suggested increasing Imp-A gap. No change.

Hoping the spring set does something bc I'm out of ideas.

Double and triple bonus still score correctly.

#19 1 year ago

Since it sometimes misses a single bonus, the likely cause is one of these. Is one of these happening, or something else?
1) The bonus unit occasionally counts down 2 when it should count down 1
2) The score occasionally misses counting up when it should

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Since it sometimes misses a single bonus, the likely cause is one of these. Is one of these happening, or something else?
1) The bonus unit occasionally counts down 2 when it should count down 1
2) The score occasionally misses counting up when it should

It now does a single consistently but starts falling off starting at 2. I tested a bunch of '4's' yesterday and kept only getting 2. It EXTREMELY occasionally will score more by 1 or 2.

#21 1 year ago

Inconsistent is probably the operative word.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

It now does a single consistently but starts falling off starting at 2. I tested a bunch of '4's' yesterday and kept only getting 2. It EXTREMELY occasionally will score more by 1 or 2.

Can you post some pictures of the unit? gear teeth, armatures, springs, at this point it has to be a mechanical issue. The whole unit probably needs dismantled, cleaned, and adjusted.
Not sure if these pictures in this post will help compare but it might help:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-dy-no-mite-strato-flite#post-6632381

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

The whole unit probably needs dismantled, cleaned, and adjusted.

This has been done. There are two vids above, and the back matches the pix you posted. It ALWAYS scores correctly on double and triple bonus. I have ordered new springs and will see if they do anything.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

This has been done. There are two vids above, and the back matches the pix you posted. It ALWAYS scores correctly on double and triple bonus. I have ordered new springs and will see if they do anything.

I watched the videos but its only from the spider side, theres no view or pictures of the other side where all the parts are.

#25 1 year ago

You could try turning off the score motor service switch. Manually turning the cams to see if the subtract coil is pulling in strongly or fluttering. I would adjust the impulse A switch so that it closes late near the top of the cam point and after impulse B closes.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I watched the videos but its only from the spider side, theres no view or pictures of the other side where all the parts are.

Those slow motion videos would be beneficial from the mechanical side so you can see if the coils sticking or if the springs are flopping around or if an arm is snagging or if a gear tooth is being jumped. The Double and Triple bonus doesnt advance as fast which is why its probably scoring properly versus the BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM of the single bonus.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Since it sometimes misses a single bonus, the likely cause is one of these. Is one of these happening, or something else?
1) The bonus unit occasionally counts down 2 when it should count down 1
2) The score occasionally misses counting up when it should

(Quoted from PM: ) It can do both

Then you have 2 separate problems which will almost certainly require 2 diagnoses and 2 fixes.

1) The bonus unit occasionally counts down 2 when it should count down 1. This is likely a mechanical problem with the stepper but a combination of a light bulb tester and slow motion video will help diagnose the exact cause.

2) The score occasionally misses counting up when it should. This is likely an electrical problem in the circuit that drives the 1000 Point relay or score reel, especially if it can happen to either player.

#28 1 year ago

New springs arrive today. I'm going to put them on and see if there is any improvement.

#29 1 year ago

OK, here is one of the other side. It got 7/10. Can't upload the slo-mo vid for some reason.

I can see that it just kind of cuts out at the end.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

OK, here is one of the other side. It got 7/10. Can't upload the slo-mo vid for some reason.

I can see that it just kind of cuts out at the end.

How many wraps is the main spring around the gear? Usually its 3 times, it might be too tight or too loose.

#31 1 year ago

ok I just went down and loaded up my bonus to 10 and drained. When I watch the bonus unit mine counts 1,2,3,4,5, pause, 6,7,8,9,10
When I watch yours, it goes 1,2,3,4,5,6, pause
The pulse is being activated 6 times on the count down instead of just 5 and its rushed instead of even time. Which I think would mean a switch is misadjusted on the score motor. The fellas above pointed this out and the video of the mech side is confirming. You can change the play back speed on YouTube to 25% and see its clearly pulsing 6 times.

Its actually doing a little stutter on the second pull going 1, t-t-two, 3,4,5,6, pause

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

How many wraps is the main spring around the gear? Usually its 3 times, it might be too tight or too loose.

I've been changing it between 3 and 4 and it makes no difference. The new springs did seem to tighten things up though.

Quoted from mrm_4:

ok I just went down and loaded up my bonus to 10 and drained. When I watch the bonus unit mine counts 1,2,3,4,5, pause, 6,7,8,9,10
When I watch yours, it goes 1,2,3,4,5,6, pause

There is only a pause if I do 10. Let me do another vid with 8 or 9. Thanks for noting playback speed can be adjusted; I didn't know that.

#33 1 year ago

Now there is a pause. This got 6/9.

#34 1 year ago

It looks like you're getting an extra pulse after the 5th pulse. There should be a pause after the 5th pulse, but yours gets another pulse and the solenoid plunger pulls in and holds in instead. Have you tried blocking the double and triple bonus score motor switches to see if that changes things? Turning the score motor by hand might help reveal where the extra pulse comes from.

#35 12 months ago

I'm wondering if that reset coil is magnetized. Going to swap it out.

#36 12 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I'm wondering if that reset coil is magnetized. Going to swap it out.

It’s pulling in because it’s getting power. I bet the switches are adjusted wrong in the stack. Like the bottom blade of your switch is touching the top blade of the one below it or something. It’s not firing with the correct logic which means the contacts are touching when they shouldn’t. Your focus can move to the score motor stack. The actual unit is fine.

#37 12 months ago

Yes!! I swapped the Bonus reset coil and it ALWAYS scores all points except the last one. I am correct in seeing that bonus will always start on 1000 after reset, ya?

#38 12 months ago

I swapped the Bonus relay too, but no difference. Very occasionally will get the 1000 if it is the total.

#39 12 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

bonus will always start on 1000 after reset, ya?

Yes, through this circuit.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#40 12 months ago

Very, very occasionally getting the last 1000, or single 1000.

Doesn't appear to be getting 10th pulse.

#41 12 months ago

After reset.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#42 12 months ago

I think your bonus countdown problem is purely mechanical. Looking at the videos of the coil side, the small pawl (A-6490, in red on your earlier drawing) looks bent. The leg I see just below the coil appears to be twisted upward. The leg should be a flat 90 degree bend so it is parallel to the bushing hole. At rest, that leg should be very close to the ratchet. In action, it must contact the ratchet before the long pawl releases. It limits the ratchet to less than 1 step until the coil drops out and the main pawl re-engages. If it is not engaging at all, the stepper can move 1 or 2 additional steps each pulse.

The extra movement at the 0 end might also cause intermittent failure of the normal step-up back to 1000.

#43 12 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Very, very occasionally getting the last 1000, or single 1000. Doesn't appear to be getting 10th pulse.

Can you post some up close pictures of the score motor switch stack? So we can see the gaps and closed switches. You’re saying it’s not getting a tenth pulse but the problem is it’s pulsing wrong all together.
The fact that it pulses strong 6 times and HOLDS IN during the time it’s supposed to be resting is your clue.
It is supposed to pulse when the tooth on the cam lifts the stack.
Each pulse is a lift.
Each lift pulls in the B1-26 800
It’s supposed to go
Pulse pulse pulse pulse pulse PAUSE(let go during the rest)
pulse pulse pulse pulse pulse.

Yours goes pulse, p-p-pulse, pulse, pulse, pulse, PULLLLSE (hold in when supposed to rest) pulse, pulse, pulse, pulse

Your pulses are opposite of the teeth on the cam of the score motor. It has to be a switch stack issue

#44 12 months ago
Quoted from Ace-of-pins:

The extra movement at the 0 end might also cause intermittent failure of the normal step-up back to 1000.

There is a bit of play but the Bonus zero pt switches are adj to account for that.

#45 12 months ago

Until you acknowledge that your pulses are opposite of what they are supposed to be you're going to be chasing your tail man.
Your coil is firing wrong because your switches are making contact when they arent supposed to.
Focus on the score motor.

#46 12 months ago

Since the score motor impulse cam is last in the row, removal of the switch stack screws should help with the switch and contacts inspection.

#47 12 months ago

Second stack from the right
IMG_7554 (resized).jpegIMG_7554 (resized).jpegIMG_7555 (resized).jpegIMG_7555 (resized).jpeg
Notice the top 2 switches (4 blades) are normally open when it’s resting. They close 5 times when the motor spins.
IMG_7556 (resized).jpegIMG_7556 (resized).jpeg
Show me that yours looks like this then I will go shut up somewhere…

#48 12 months ago
Quoted from Ace-of-pins:

Looking at the videos of the coil side, the small pawl (A-6490, in red on your earlier drawing) looks bent.

You'd be hard pressed to bend one of these, and I see nothing wrong here. If it was, why would it only affect the final 1000?

pawl (resized).jpegpawl (resized).jpeg
#49 12 months ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

Can you post some up close pictures of the score motor switch stack?

Why would only affect the final 1000? If the switches are off it should affect all of them.

stack (resized).jpegstack (resized).jpeg
#50 12 months ago

Other end.

My thought is that something is cutting out early, which is why it only affects the final 1000. Also, double and triple bonus ALWAYS score correctly.

stack (resized).jpegstack (resized).jpeg
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