(Topic ID: 92279)

Sugg: Final machine to compliment Sys11 lineup of a HighSpeed, F-14, Jokerz! ?

By Pac-Fan

9 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 40 posts
  • 24 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by iluvak9
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 9 years ago

I've been in video games for 13 years. Still own 24 of them with 18 in the game room and 6 other tucked away. Got a High Speed pin 6 years ago that was a hit. 1 year ago started to branch out and try others. Refurb'd a Vector, but really didn't like it. Tried a friend's Mr. & Ms. Pac-man and really didn't like it (even though I have tons of Pac-related video games and memorabilia). Got a Jokerz! and then a F-14, 6-9 months ago.

I like all 3 of the Sys11 for various reasons. Would be hard to get rid of any, but if I had to pick it would be HS first. (Jokerz is the best shape and like the complexity of the lane change, love the speed and flow of F-14 but PF not in best of shape, HS has been a solid game, good flow, but worst physical shape between PF and plastics, and owned for the longest)

Anyway, I might be able to squeeze in 1 more pin in the gameroom if I move 3 mini video games to storage. Trying to decide what game would be a good complement to these 3 that are wildly different. What else is there that would not replicate what these 3 already have? I can think of things like magnets, (DMD potentially), canons, under PF catches/troughs, ball accelerators, and a *bit* more rules (but not insane amount) as the main "don't have's".

I have tried a friends Whirlwind and like it, didn't care as much for Earthshaker. I tried BigGuns and Police Force and didn't find them as enticing as I thought they'd be. (However, I also tried about 9 games of F-14 on location and didn't care for it until I got mine fixed and working and now really enjoy it.). I have looked at Taxi and Rollergames and Diner online a lot when they've appeared for sale 300 miles away and seem interesting on video but so did Vector

So...any of you Sys11 fans that have played (and like) the 3 I have, have any suggestions as to something to look to finish off a collection for now given what I may be looking for? I have considered the first Data East Simpsons; Sys11 like (copy)/period, as well as a couple early Williams DMD games too, as that would stay in that 1984-1994 ish time period.

Granted here, it's what randomly appears on Craigslist that is worth a 3 1/2 hour drive to Minneapolis for that won't get sold from under you; so it's basically luck and you take what you can get, and on a $1000 +/- game, $450+ in shipping isn't worth it. And I don't have space to overbuy and really dislike selling stuff, so want to be sure I will own it for a while.

#2 9 years ago

Whichever one you find first in good shape at a good price. And if you find it is not the right choice, sell it. But I am partial EATPM and Pinbot.

#3 9 years ago

One of the best additions to my System 11s was to add a DMD game, chose Maverick as it is affordable in the $1000-$1500 range and packed with great features.

Taxi, as you mentioned is a good choice for another system 11. Pinbot too.

#4 9 years ago

I always considered myself a "System 11 guy"...until I wound up with a Starship Troopers - an affordable game packed with all the ramps and multiball mayhem I wanted out of my next System 11.

If you want to stick with a classy lineup of System 11s, Taxi, Diner or Pinbot would all add a touch of something new to your lineup. Or, ya know, Black Knight 2000...if it's your thing

#5 9 years ago

Add one of these: taxi or pinbot. Great classics. Whatever you do though, buy one in nice shape. Don't get a crappy version.

Like RyThom said, I too loved system 11 pins and that's all i'd buy. Then I got my first WPC DMD. Sold the system 11s as I felt they paled in comparison.

Now i'm stuck in the WPC DMD era of pins.

#6 9 years ago

I'm with Blackbeard: Taxi or Pinbot. Absolute classics.

Taxi is a little shallow, but makes up for it in music, sounds, and overall character. Pinbot's hardest goal(for me anyway) is to get to the Sun. I think I've only done it once, but still really enjoy playing that game. The music for Pinbot is way cool, too.

#7 9 years ago

I vote for Diner. Similar game play to Taxi but feels more refined IMO. Plus its a beautiful machine once polished up.

#8 9 years ago

I like the look of Taxi, but it also reminds me a bit too much of Jokerz! -- Two wide back arching plastic ramps, the 3 lanes (though are staggered) and 3 centered pop bumpers in back. Though I agree the rest is definitely different with the skill shot and the various catches. But was on my list. I need to go read the multiple "Diner vs. Taxi" threads now, as well as read up on Pinbot. Of course, as mentioned above, it's what appears closest resonably, and likely it won't be any of these.

So far the tally looks like:

Taxi: 5
Pinbot:4
Diner: 2
------------
EATPM: 1
Marverick: 1
Starship Troopers: 1
Black Knight 2K: 1

#9 9 years ago

I have repaired, shopped, or owned nearly all system 11's over the years. I learned a long time ago that Whirlwind is in fact the best system 11. Not even really my favorite sys 11 game but I recognize a system 11 masterpiece when I play it.

#10 9 years ago

Pinbot.

#11 9 years ago

I'd usually throw in a vote for Rollergames. You can get that game moving pretty fast. However with HS/F14 in the collection already it may be too much "Signature Ritchie" for you (upper right flipper, side ramp shot, kickback, etc).

How about Space Station? To me it stands apart from nearly everything in the System 11 lineup. Pretty unique. Maybe Funhouse, if you are willing to shell out Funhouse prices and can stomach Lawlor's distinct pre-TAF style...which ain't for everyone.

Good Luck!

Rob
creditdotpinball.com

#12 9 years ago

Swords of Fury

#13 9 years ago

Taxi. Pinbot transporter whirlwind

#14 9 years ago

I looked a Rollergames a few times last year (via video) when a couple popped up in the cities. It definitely has some unique things but almost too much 'noise' in artwork and more dead upper playfield (at least from what I saw other players doing; as compared with my other 3). I definitely like Whirlwind but fear it will be out of reasonable price range, but if one showed up for a good price I'd definitely snatch it up.

I do not care for Funhouse. My wife hates it (Rudy creeps her out), so that one is out of the question. I've glanced at Space Station, should take another look at it. I (and others playing mine) do like Ritchie stuff like the kickback, upper right flipper take or leave it. But yeah, may not want to go overboard in just his stuff, looking for a mix to even things out. RG would get me a magnet (not really used as a save though) and a few interesting things but would definitely repeat stuff I've got in the others.

Thanks for the lists and the additional feedback. It is solidifying what I kinda already knew! Oh yeah, one key thing--must have a multi-ball mode; everyone loves that! Jokerz is easy, F-14 is pretty easy, HighSpeed is quite hard (for newbies) to get multi ball. Updated tally:

Taxi: 6
Pinbot:6
Diner: 2
Whirlwind: 2
------------
Rollergames: 1
Space Station: 1
Funhouse: 1
Swords of Fury: 1
EATPM: 1
Marverick: 1
Starship Troopers: 1
Black Knight 2K: 1

#15 9 years ago

Considering you have 3 B+ titles, I'd go A / A- with your final system 11 - and that means Funhouse, Whirlwind, Diner, or Earthshaker.
You cannot lose with any of the 4, and people each prefer one or another for their own reasons, so no need to debate.

Whichever you like the best of these 4, that's the move to make.
All are reasonable price (except FH) - all hold their value - all are fun and deeper than the 3 you have.

And...all 4 are always in demand - so easy to switch up someday.

#16 9 years ago

I noticed the OP mentions they are not a fan of Whirlwind.

Also, for what it's worth, I HAD/have owned all three other OP games in the title for many years time...

Funhouse is not a System 11 pinball, it's WPC. (slaps forehead)

If you are talking "classic system 11" like taxi or "iconic and groundbreaking system 11" like high speed, that's an entirely different conversation all together.

The best designed system 11 layout and gameplay that exists is Whirlwind.

If not for the design and success of that game, TAF, TZ, Funhouse would have never been conceived.

In much the same way Ritchie changed the speed of pinball with the use of the "wireform" guides/ramps in HS, Lawlor did the same thing with Wirlwind, pushing pins to new places 5 years later.

EAPM, Diner and ES are all great iconic games but grow tired in a group of games much quicker than whirlwind.

Only annoyance I have with Whirlwind is it's sound is lacking "greatness". However, strictly judging a system 11's game-play and objectives, it's the clear winner.

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from ejg10532626:

Considering you have 3 B+ titles, I'd go A / A- with your final system 11 - and that means Funhouse, Whirlwind, Diner, or Earthshaker.
You cannot lose with any of the 4, and people each prefer one or another for their own reasons, so no need to debate.
Whichever you like the best of these 4, that's the move to make.
All are reasonable price (except FH) - all hold their value - all are fun and deeper than the 3 you have.
And...all 4 are always in demand - so easy to switch up someday.

I'd go with this. My vote was Pinbot, but this is a better idea. I think Diner is an acquired taste, but WW and ES are great games that are a lot of fun to play and they aren't as polarizing as FH (people either love Rudy or hate him) and FH doesn't count anyway (not Sys11).

#18 9 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

FH doesn't count anyway (not Sys11).

OP original post implies doesn't have to be a Sys 11, seems he wants something with a similar "staying power", similar rules/depth, but maybe something a little different to get some variety. I think an entry level DMD is a great option, in addition to the higher regarded Sys 11 titles.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

OP original post implies doesn't have to be a Sys 11, seems he wants something with a similar "staying power", similar rules/depth, but maybe something a little different to get some variety. I think an entry level DMD is a great option, in addition to the higher regarded Sys 11 titles.

Exactly, thanks for re-clarifying Wayout! Funhouse is a fair "compliment" even if WPC. I indicated looking for something to compliment (and not replicate) my 3 Sys11 games. I deeply enjoy the Sys11 games and so long as something newer even in WPC or Bally labeled stuff feel like a Sys11 or better, then it is fair game.

I just know I won't be able to justify a late 90's DMD both by cost and overall 'too much' feel of toys, rules, complexity (I don't care for things like TAF, WhoDoneIt, TwighlightZone and the like. However, I'd be open to an early DMD -- something that doesn't *rely* on the DMD but augments the game more than the alpha numerics could. But not sure if you can find Sys11 greatness with an early DMD in the WPC line.

So feel free to continue to throw up any early DMD game as well that adds and not detracts from the feel of the others Thanks for all the suggestions so far! Looks like Pinbot is leading with Taxi and Diner now neck and neck behind.

#20 9 years ago

I would say Taxi over Pinbot by a mile, but Whirlwind blows them both away. I have both Taxi and Whirlwind and I had Pinbot. Pinbot is a cool game but got old very quickly for me. The shots are very limited. Another system 11 no one has mentioned yet is Mousin Around. Probably has the best flow of any system 11 game. Lots of ramps, and the mouse trap ball locks.

#21 9 years ago

Elvira and the Party Monsters! Only System 11 I own, and probably will be the only one. I prefer my games a little deeper, but the charm and theme of EATPM is a winner. If it doesn't grab you theme-wise though then keep looking.

#22 9 years ago

Without a doubt, Black Knight 2000.

I am biased though.

Chris

#23 9 years ago

Whirlwind or Taxi. IMO a system 11 collection needs both.

#24 9 years ago

There is no such thing as a final machine...

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Without a doubt, Black Knight 2000.
I am biased though.
Chris

I second BK2K, It's not for everyone and it's not as fancy as some of the other games mentioned, but I love it. It's mean, it hates you, it's fast and colorful, no toys, just shots and ramps and loops back from a time when you actually had to earn multiball. It seems to be getting more popular since it's inclusion in pinball arcade.

I am also biased

#26 9 years ago

Just to throw a curve, I am going to suggest Radical as your next system 11 since my previous posts really were more to show the downsides of other more popular titles. And since it doesn't have to be a system 11, I am going to suggest DE's Time Machine as your next non-sys11, non-DMD title.

#27 9 years ago

If you're open to the idea of an early DMD, Terminator 2 is a decent way to go. It's essentially a glorified System 11. Simple rules, multiball, a cannon, and a great layout full of Steve Richie goodness.

Also, I'm loving all the recent BK2K support

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from NextoPin:

I second BK2K, It's not for everyone and it's not as fancy as some of the other games mentioned, but I love it.

Art package always had me sold on BK2K. And then I played it at a few shows and the PHoF...and was really underwhelmed. It creates quite a mood with the overall package of lights, sound and art, but I was really surprised how lacking it was in gameplay at the expense of focussing on speed. Maybe its just not my cup of tea. I like my stop and go too much...squeeze in a sip of beer.

Glad to see FH getting some love...I suggested it because the OP wasn't strict about it being a true Sys11. Funhouse is a Sys11 in spirit though....and still think it would be the ultimate cherry on top for your collection.

Rob
creditdotpinball.com

#29 9 years ago

- Transformer The Rescue
- Mousin' Around
- Black Knight 2000
- Swords of Fury

#30 9 years ago

Answer: Whatever sys11 you can pick up for $1000-$1500 in very good condition.
I have seven system 11s, and I recommend them all.
Best system 11s: Diner/Whirlwind *honorable mention Taxi
Best bang for buck: F14/Grand Lizard/Rollergames/High Speed/Space Station
-mof

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

I noticed the OP mentions they are not a fan of Whirlwind.

Nope, I do like it:

Quoted from Pac-Fan:I have tried a friends Whirlwind and like it, didn't care as much for Earthshaker.

Though I realize it will probably be the most expensive. There is something about it that makes it feel different than other Sys11. Not being so balanced on the playfield, more like FH, where F14/Taxi/Jokerz is definitely mirror images left to right.

Looks like the current tally (though hard to keep straight with multiple answers from same person ) is this, where WW came up from behind, and Pinbot took a fall.

Taxi: 9
Whirlwind: 8
Pinbot:5
Diner: 5
Funhouse: 3
Black Knight 2K: 3
EATPM: 2
Mousin Around: 2
EarthShaker: 2
Rollergames: 2
Space Station: 2
------------
Swords of Fury: 1
Marverick: 1
Starship Troopers: 1
Radical: 1
Time Machine: 1
T2: 1
Grand Lizard: 1
Transformer The Rescue: 1

Thanks everyone. You have pretty much came up with what I thought was my plan. I think Taxi will be a bit too basic/close to my Jokerz in some aspects, especially compared to WW. Pinbot looked different, (but so did Vector and was disappointed there). Diner has some neat stuff but I think it's way too busy, and for nearly typically equal price, WW would be the better buy. FH definitely off the list due to dislike from family. Feel free to provide any other tips!

1 week later
#32 9 years ago

You mentioned Taxi as being basic, but remember, this is system 11. Most, if not all system 11s are very basic.

I have owned both Taxi and WW, arguably the kings of system 11 pins. I miss my taxi much more than my ww. Taxi had clear objectives to obtaining the jackpot (and the crazy bell buzzer). The shout outs are classic imo. Overall I found it better than ww, which I found a tad overrated. Just a tad though.

I'd love to own a taxi again, but it would have to be with a cc'd playfield installed. Pinbot stranded....

#33 9 years ago

Ugh - I only have one pin and it's Whirlwind. Can I vote for it?

#34 9 years ago

Taxi is also way different feeling from Jokerz, in my opinion. Yes, they both have two plastic ramps, but thats where the similarities end. Taxi's ramps can be reliably combo'd where Jokerz dumps the ball in the lanes/pops everytime.

And like Blackbeard was saying, the theme is fantastic.

The yellow cabinet would look good contrasting the black and blue you've already got, too...

#35 9 years ago

Yeah, earlier I mentioned that it felt similar with the wide arches and the 3 lanes with the lane change function and the 3 centered pops. That was a lot of similarity at the top of the playfield, and clearly was closest to Jokerz over anything F14/HS has. Right now all 3 of mine don't look anything similar: Different # of flipers, different ball delivery point, different upper levels, different pop placement, different # of multi-balls, kicker vs. no kicker, etc...

I realize Sys11 is always going to be simpler than later DMD, but I don't want "extremely basic" that say EM or early SS gives. I want something that can be easily taught to a child for the rules, fun to play above all, but hard to master. (my 7 yr old learned F14 rules in just a few days and actually is quite good, 1-3 million games commonly enough, I only range 2-5 on EX Easy settings). If he can learn them, then friends over on game nites can as well.

I know Taxi and WW would be on top of my list, but if the opportunity for a good enough deal on almost any Sys11 shows up I'd take it. (e.g. Rollergames, Pinbot, Earthshaker, Space Station, Diner, even lowly Millionaire if cheap enough) I was just curious about what I'd be willing to spend more on / be more actively looking for to make a set of 4 until I get more room for others in the future.

Thanks for the continued feedback. For sure I will load up Taxi on VirtualPin and do some playing and get a feel instead of just watching videos. (Though Vector felt like a good game emulated but much much harder on a real table).

PS: One interesting thing I looked at was comparing the # of actual switch matrix assigned switches some of the Sys11 games have over others. F14 uses all 64 of them, Jokerz! is 56 of them (8 unused) same as Whirlwind, High Speed is 52 (12 unused) and Taxi is way down almost at the bottom with only 43 used (21 unused). So, one wonders why Taxi is such a good game with significantly fewer scoring targets / ball positioning sensors than the others have? I realize switches <> good game, but just an interesting observation. (in otherwords -- great rules, building on previous shots make a better game not just targets apparently)

#36 9 years ago
Quoted from Pac-Fan:

PS: One interesting thing I looked at was comparing the # of actual switch matrix assigned switches some of the Sys11 games have over others. F14 uses all 64 of them, Jokerz! is 56 of them (8 unused) same as Whirlwind, High Speed is 52 (12 unused) and Taxi is way down almost at the bottom with only 43 used (21 unused). So, one wonders why Taxi is such a good game with significantly fewer scoring targets / ball positioning sensors than the others have? I realize switches <> good game, but just an interesting observation.

That is very interesting info.
-mof

#37 9 years ago
Quoted from RyThom:

Taxi's ramps can be reliably combo'd where Jokerz dumps the ball in the lanes/pops everytime.

Thanks for pointing that out. That is something I love about F-14--looping the loop with the upper flippers to increase the multiplier, and same thing with High Speed, doing a long loop from the bottom flippers around and after 5 times ready to get the free ball.

Quoted from mof:

That is very interesting info.

Here's the whole list in case you're interested. Pulled from the manuals, think I counted correctly:

Switches Switch % Game
69 107.8% Banzai Run * (Two playfields, relay switched matrix, theoretically allows up to 128 inputs)
64 100.0% F-14
60 93.8% Millionaire
59 92.2% Fire, Riverboat, Space Station
57 89.1% Bugs Bunny, Mousin Around
56 87.5% Big Guns, BK 2K, Jokerz!, Whirlwind
55 85.9% Dr. Dude
53 82.8% Pinbot
52 81.3% Elvira, Earthshaker, High Speed, Rollergames,
50 78.1% Cyclone
49 76.6% Police Force, Road Kings, Swords of Fury
47 73.4% Gameshow, Grand Lizard, Radical
46 71.9% Diner
45 70.3% Pool Sharks
44 68.8% Bad Cats
43 67.2% Taxi
41 64.1% Transporter

#38 9 years ago
Quoted from Pac-Fan:

Thanks for pointing that out. That is something I love about F-14--looping the loop with the upper flippers to increase the multiplier, and same thing with High Speed, doing a long loop from the bottom flippers around and after 5 times ready to get the free ball.

Here's the whole list in case you're interested. Pulled from the manuals, think I counted correctly:

Ha, you should post this in the sys-11 club!
-mof

#39 9 years ago

Whirlwind, Black Knight 2000, Road Kings, Space Station, Rollergames, and Cyclone would be at the top of my list (not necessarily in that order).

2 weeks later
#40 9 years ago

Before addressing System 11's, you might also want to consider World Cup Soccer (WCS). It's a lower priced DMD with a rule set a little deeper, but similar to FH and the System 11's. It's a great family game with the sports theme, cheering crowds, etc. and basic rules that are easier to explain than other DMD's from that time frame or since then. Has two great multiball modes (Final Draw - you try to win your way up in rank from current seeding position by beating teams to the point where you get to play the #1 ranked team, and World Cup - traveling through the cities to make it to LA to play in the World Cup against Germany)

As to System 11's, I owned several and have played all of them a lot. The ones I would consider adding, in order of personal preference: WW, Taxi, Pinbot, Space Stn. And, to reinforce what others have said, WW is the BEST system 11 unless you don't like games that are very challenging with multiball that is very difficult to start and with hard to score jackpots during multiball.

WW and ES are similar in rule set, but I'd place WW over ES because ES has rules that are flawed and WW also has cooler (literally - get it?) toys. Taxi and Diner are also similar games, and, although Diner is prettier to look at and has slightly deeper rule set, Taxi is just more fun to play (and usually less $). Space Stn is similar to Space Shuttle with some added rules and a very cool (especially with LED lights) special light show for multiball - Condition Green. There are several other fun System 11 games, and I can see why they might also be preferred over the ones on my list by others, but just providing my preferences here.

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