I was suprised to see a nice Cactus Canyon at a local movie theatre the other day. Everything worked and it was relatively clean.

As you know, Stern doesn't publish how many they build/ship (which is unfortunate). If it's true that "only" 50% are sold for home use, it's still a huge number.

I understand why someone living in a densely populated area would be more upbeat about public places to play. I'm sure you have more opportunities in the bay area (which is true for lots of things including better food, music, etc.). The reason we don't play in public places is simple: there aren't any good places to play. Sure, there's a pool hall down the road with a Scared Stiff, however it's filthy/dark and plays very slow. I still pumped 5 bucks into it and tried to encourage the owner. There's an arcade 10 miles away, however the pins are in lousy shape (several turned off). We've tried to "reason" with the owner and failed. An uphill battle that isn't worth my time.

From my perspective, there are many facets to non-commercial pinball ownership (nostalgia, art, fun, projects, license, etc.). OTOH, commercial pinball ownership is purely about $$. In the right location, they may earn their keep. I do think you (and others) are right to be hopeful in more populated areas where people actually still make eye contact and socialize. In the suburbs, everyone is plugged into their cell phone 24/7

I'm off to a tournament...fwiw, I've had fun chatting about this.

I rely on location machines to be able to play at all (for now - collection to begin soon) and I really wish they were kept up better, but they're at least kept mostly working. There are about a dozen places around here that have single machines. A few are in pretty good condition and I tend to play those the most (go figure right?) but I still play the others. Most of them are reasonably functional at least but have many long-standing issues like bad switches and lamps.

I called the operator of a couple of them once before to tell them of the issues (they put a sticker on the machine with their phone number). The woman that answered seemed annoyed that I was telling them of a problem but they did send someone to fix the flipper that wasn't working on a TAF. What was disappointing was that no other maintenance was done while there including leaving the other flipper pretty weak (which I mentioned also).

There's another operator (I think - no stickers) that basically does the same thing. If the flippers stop working they will get fixed but nothing else is done. Some of them have switches and lamps that have never worked since I started playing the machines and I know a tech has been there to fix the flippers on most of them at least once. The sad thing is that it doesn't take long to see what all of the issues are (I could recite the list from memory on most of them) but I guess they just don't think its worth the effort to fix them.

I think they assume most people that put money in don't know the difference beyond whether the flippers work. I don't think that's always the case though. I know that I would both stop more often and play longer if everything worked so I have to assume there are others. I'm not talking about machines being in pristine condition, just everything functional and maybe the playfield could get cleaned once in a blue moon.

It just seems like these operators are stuck in a place where it doesn't seem worthwhile to invest in the upkeep of the machines. So they'll probably only get worse unfortunately, which is too bad since they have some good titles.

I think the frustration with pinball comes when the operators are looking at it as a business to generate revenue. The operators get angry because they have to fix machines constantly to keep them working and the players get mad because the games are often left in complete disarray in order to keep profits up.

When the people operating the machines are people that love pinball, then the motivation to make money is either secondary or (in the case of our arcade) non-existent. We installed invisiglass on our Metallica LE because we thought it looked awesome not because it will in any way impact profit. When our LOTR had a flipper that was a little sluggish, we rebuilt it right away because we want to be able to destroy the ring not because it means it will get more plays. This just isn't how a traditional operator thinks...

Ops have crap games on location who don't understand or appreciate them. Private owners do. More people need to step up to the plate and start putting their games on location. Reciprocal Skateboards in NY beng a prime example. People will NOT get a good impression of this hobby if these "prized possessions" don't leave your basement. If you place them they will play.

I wish people would stop hogging their 911 turbos in their garages and put them in a place I can enjoy as well, but that likely ain't happening

I'm not buying and investing not only money but tons of time into something to let some jackhole on the street carve their name into it. Their are all kinds of logistics involved in this as well that one needs to be aware of, contracts with owners of property, liability insurance, routine visits, *more time and more money*.

No thanks. I'm in this to play pinball. I have a job and it pays real money. I buy for my basement so I can find a way to play pinball to enjoy in the downtime from work, not so I can find more ways to waste money and time. I have a wife and kids that do that two fold.

The thing you and others need to keep in mind is that now is a really good time to look for new locations, no matter where you live. Thanks to things like video games and phone apps, pinball is in the public eye much more now than it was just a few years ago. If you put clean working games out there, people will find and play them. No matter how small the town.

Secondly, the economy is still recovering. Many businesses, like pizza parlors, are still struggling for customers. If you go into a business and tell the owner that you can increase his profits, he will listen. Business owners always want to hear how they can make more money.

As I mentioned earlier, don't make any promises on earnings. Every location is different. Do promise clean and working games. Start looking close to home. The less you have to travel to get to the games, the better. If you can get 3 or more games in a location, then you can start talking about a regular league.

Pinball is not a Porsche 911, it is more like a taxi. It is an industrial machine built to be placed somewhere and make some coin.
Only in recent years has pinball gone from a game that was played on location, with people paying for credits, to a game that people collect, play dress up with mods, and every game now has a limited edition version (wtf?).
It is no longer a game that players play, but a game that people will buy examples of and put in their home before even playing game one on said example. Look at all of the posts here where people are about to buy a game that they have never played, and they want opinions. Pinball has largely gone to the collectors. Which I find very sad. But I am a player and not a collector. I own some games, yes, but they were mostly bought to put on location.
And like many others, I would never have bought any games if there was playable pin in my area. At the time when I first bought pins, in Norfolk in 2001, location pin had just about dried up. I had played location pin through the late 80s and the 90s, but by the early 2000s, it was all but gone.

If someone carves their name into one of my location pins, I will be a little upset about it, but I'll get over it. I did not buy the games to keep them valuable. To display them like an exhibit at a museum.
It is a game to be played. It has slots to take money. It eventually pays itself off if an op grinds it out and keeps it running. And if ops do not put games out, pin sales will drop even further and pinball innovation will slow even more than it already has.

Pins on location need to make money for the operator, period. Even if you love pinball the money has to come from somewhere to provide the pins you place on location, and to buy parts to fix the games, and to provide money to buy more new pins. Sounds like your arcade must be getting money from some other revenue driver to fund the pins.

Correction tons of people appreciate pinball now that did not prior to me collecting.
I cannot count how many friends and family are over and how regularly. Mostly to have fun and play games. The public on the other hand will not know. On this matter I really am torn as I used to run route of mostly arcades. People treat nice things in public like Trash no respect for others property. Also unless you have an amazing location you will lose money to share with strangers. I will keep them home until the market really is booming again then I will revisit this.

I couldn't agree more.

I have tried to place my machines (one at a time), in my restaurant to give others the opportunity to play pinball on location. Yes, people loved playing; many couldn't even believe what they were seeing....I had comments stating amazement in seeing a beautiful, working pinball! Though it seemed cool to have people play, I had to cringe when I would see a kid using the glass as a ramp for his dinky car, or somebody using it as a table, a chalk board...etc.
With the STUPIDLY high price increases in the hobby, why WOULD I keep putting machine somewhere that they take ridiculous abuse by people that could care less about them?

I am all for the rebirth of pinball (and arcades) on location, but until the cost of a machine comes WAAAY down, count me out for having a machine out there. I am not rich. I work hard and long hours for my money. To even have a 2k machine out there is not viable to me. To make the money back to pay for the game itself could take up to 2 years. Perhaps there should be a way that these companies sell me a game and let me pay it off in monthly intake. I don't have the finances to buy a game and wait for it to "pay-off", all the while watching it get beat on - sorry. If I am a detriment to hobby for hoarding my games in my basement - sorry.

If the games are being maintained and played, you are certainly not a detriment to the hobby!

Home collectors not only saved pinball, but have elevated to an art form. I recently had someone over who loves pinball, but only played it @ the Jersey shore (back "in the day"). When he played my pins, he was blown away with how smooth/fast they played and how beautiful they were. From my perspective, this is the bottom line...when you introduce (or re-introduce) people to pinball, you want them to have positive experience. Public pinball that offers a less-than-great experience does more to harm than help.

My machines are beautiful! LOL! It gives me great pride to make them look and play their best.

What? You mean people aren't putting their HEP machines out there?

I too have gotten others into pinball. People that played my machines at my restaurant offered to buy them...even for inflated prices! I turned them down, not wanting to take advantage of their "innocence"! Rather, I sold them to friends at less than I paid - just trying to further the hobby and create a little pinball network in my area!!

I'm glad there are people trying, but that is a business with risks I'm not willing to take. As per my posts on the last page at the end, I have ideas on how I think it would work, but I'm not a business person, and I know that I don't have the experience to even come close to pulling it off.

I actually had tried to route a machine a couple years ago, but the one distributor in my city seems to be a strong hold on every spot around me, contracts in place with people where there are not even one machine!

I commend anyone trying, but let's not point the finger at people hording in their basement. Without this aspect of the hobby, there would be no pinball left, as truly no one would be interested, and these would be rotting in barns as we speak.

Interesting you mention HEP machines. A couple years ago, HEP restored an AFM for me. I played it for 9 months and decided I wanted to make room for another title (at the time, only had space for 7 or so). Decided to "sell" it to a trusted collector/player with an informal "buyback" agreement. After a year, he decided to get something else and I had more room so I bought it back. It was returned in precisely the same condition...he took great care of it.

Since most people have space limitations, I think "trading" with trusted collectors/players is a different model that might expand over time. Even though money was exchanged for the HEP AFM, it could have easily been a pinball exchange. This allows the higher end machines to circulate locally without sacrificing them to the public. Food for thought...

Owners of routed pins need to learn that they will lose money out in the field, but they will lose money on resale value as well. Just wax playfield and make sure the bolts are tighted up well.
Get $50- $100 more a month and $1000 better resale.

Were any of your games actually damaged? These are commercial machines, meant to be out in the public. If you can't take a kid rolling a toy car down the playfield glass, then operating isn't for you. I regularly see people attempt death saves on my games and I do them too. Doesn't hurt them.

It doesn't have to 'pay off'. Games are retaining their value. I recently sold a Stern I bought NIB 5 years ago for 25% more than I paid for it. It was on route the whole time and more than paid for itself in earnings alone. Ask your accountant how many businesses he knows of where the equipment actually appreciates over time. You have 9 games. That's all you need.

That's partly why I'm encouraging folks here to put games out. You don't need to put your best games out, just keep them clean and working. That's it.

No one is pointing fingers at anyone. Just trying to get more folks to contribute to the hobby in bigger ways. And it's not selfish either. I very much enjoy operating games and I want others to experience what I have as an operator. Come get some!

That's simply not the case. If you put your games in a good location and maintain them properly, they will hold their value, if not increase in value. You do have to be careful about buying new titles, but that's no different than buying as a home buyer. As always, patience is a huge virtue when buying NIB.

I have a handshake deal with the owner of the business where I have games and have never had insurance. The only incident we've had over the years was a couple of guys in trench coats who pried open the door to a game (on league night no less) and ran out with about $35 in quarters. They left way more in the bill validator. I put another lock on the door that night and the game was good to go. This is the same Stern game I mentioned above, that I later sold for 25% more than I paid for it 5 years earlier.

There is no better way to support the hobby than operating games. If you can't do it, for whatever reasons, please try to support the good operators in your area by playing on location. That's the second best way to support the hobby. If you don't have any good operators in your area and you don't want to put your own games out, then move somewhere that does have good location games. That way we won't have any more of these mostly pointless threads. d

No one is pointing fingers at anyone. Just trying to get more folks to contribute to the hobby in bigger ways. And it's not selfish either. I very much enjoy operating games and I want others to experience what I have as an operator. Come get some!

Oh I know, that came out wrong, you know what I mean...

I would love to put machines somewhere that worked, and be able to keep them up in great shape, and have people respect them, and gain further interest. Hell, I do this in my home with parties, and work things through family members and their businesses.

I just fear for that which is out of my control, and again, the time is something I don't have.

I always refer back to the great underpants gnomes question.

underpants-gnomes.jpg

Sure the games were damaged. Cosmetically, the cabinets get chipped, dented, scratched, worn faded...you name it. I understand that they are built for commercial use.....but that doesn't stop me from cringing when they are damaged. Much the same reason I'd be pretty upset if I loaned my truck out and it came back beat-up. Yes it's a truck, but it is still MY truck and I don't want others damaging it.

Location Pins do have to "pay-off" if your last name isn't Rockefeller. There is no point in me paying to put a machine out there if I cannot get the money back I spent. Like I said, I am not an OP, nor do I have the financial resources to wait the 5 years that it took you to re-coup on a game. Many games (as advertised on this site that are routed), don't sell for what people are hoping. Many people actually buying are looking for HUO or Collectors examples...

I don't know if putting games on location is the best way to support the hobby. Perhaps you mean it's the best way to grow the hobby by bringing it to the masses? I support by buying from Stern, Spooky, Ben Heck, SkitB, PBL, Marco, etc. I attend the expo's near-by and visit locations when possible. I agree that getting games out there creates interest (interest by many who could never afford the newer machines anyway - that is the shame in it all, and the reason that will eventually discourage people from pinball in the long-run). I have sold my games to friends for less than I paid just to create interest and have others to talk to in my area about pinball.
There are no good operators in my area....save a friend of mine who has all but sold all of his pins off. To move because of the lack of operators to somewhere that has good location games...I really hope I detect a hint of sarcasm. I mean, my children's school district is more important....
I do agree about pointless threads...

With respect to playing games on location to support the hobby... just saying, I have gone to three or four different arcades/bowling alleys looking for playable games where I live. Basically, 7/10 games were unplayable due to incredibly bad maintenance, flippers actually coming loose from the play field (and likely grinding up the wood underneath... great), weak flippers that cannot even get a ball 1/2 way up the play field , 2/4 flippers non functional, missing/non functional targets, etc... not even talking about working display, lights and polished play fields. I mean really, how the heck does this work for the arcade/alley/movie theater- I went up to the counter at each place and NICELY explained that I actually knew how the game was supposed to function and that it was broken- I even had one person come to play it... they said yeah its broken but the guy who operates it won't care.

So whats the angle here....

Put in a game, let it die, never fix it, watch basically any one who would actually really spend money on it play it once maybe twice and walk away... is this a business model? Do enough people who wish they could play, want to play, or just don't know what its supposed to do actually dump enough money into broken non-playable games to make it even worth the gas spent to bring them onto location?

Its REALLY sad... even trying to help by pointing out exactly whats broken, even stating that its a 10 minute repair, maybe 40... and seems like all the guys/gals running the show out here just look at you like you have two heads for expecting a game to actually work...

Just seconding earlier experiences noted here... I am amazed that someone who runs an arcade and presumably is doing so to make a living, just could not give a rats ass about if the games I came to spend money on- actually work!!!

Needless to say, I have spent essentially zero dollars playing games and probably 30 bucks driving around trying to find games... The ratio could easily be 4 the other way if only....

I hate seeing route games in bad shape as well. This year on vacation I went around Myrtle Beach SC looking for pins, and only found a couple that you could even play. I found a busted up Corvette, JP, FH, Dr. Dude (actually played ok), ES, Data East Simpsons, TAF (Played for a few games), RBION (balls stuck in ramps), FGY (destroyed PF), Jokerz (played Ok), Roller Coaster Tycoon (Sort of played), POTC (probably best working) and Stern IJ.

I own a bar with 5 pins and we maintain them all the time. All our games play and if something breaks it's fixed asap. If everyone that had them out in public cared like I do there would be a lot more enthusiasm for the game. It's hard to introduce someone or a young kid to pinball when the machine doesn't work. I'm glad to have games available for the public to play and I do the work to make sure it's a good experience.

Good Thread.
I mostly agree with Phish (and Newsome), but would say route play/exposure helps "pinball', not the "hobby" of collecting them.
Truth is we all need each other.
The Op needs the home buyer, to give him good "out" money on a game that has been routed.
Then he can get the next new Stern.
The home guy needs the Op, to help Stern sell enough machines to stay afloat.
The Op and the collector BOTH need the route player for it all to keep happening!

Ops that have broken, filthy games have:
1-Given up on Pinball
2-Not made money off pinball in ages
3-Found new ways to make money, and moved on
Not to mention, some are owned by large companies, and the tech is being ran ragged with tons of calls, every day, and he gets paid the same no matter what.
So if it flips, it's good.

Support good Ops, with nice games.(the little guys)
Don't play crappy ones.
I think the quality, and quantity of route machines has gone up in the last few years!
But people always gonna Bitch.

And that "traditional" op is no longer making a dime on his pins. Broken pins = no money. Doesn't matter if a pinhead or non pinhead is playing it. point is, a lot of those older ops aren't seeing insane bucks on pins anymore so they got lazy to maintain them. Now they require work such as regular cleaning etc to make money and they dont want that

This JY looked so sad. All of the GI was out, and there was a thick black film over everything.

photo.JPG

Aw man, I wish some of you guys would just step back from this "all location ball sucks" thing and try to shift to "I support good location pinball". It's so damaging to see over and over how many of you seem actually excited to call location ball dead; what good does that do? There are killer locations opening all over the world at this point! Location ball may have been on life support ever a few years ago, and some places take longer to catch up, but I went to a movie yesterday and there was location pinball in both previews AND in the feature...it's got a good fire going!

It's just a thought, but it really isn't too much of a jump to leave room in your bashing for a little good operator love. In other words say "bad location ball is dead" not "all location ball is dead". I've been busting my ass for several years now putting out decent games; not getting crapped on by my fellow hobbyists would be so nice!

Reading over this thread, I am just shocked there are still pins on location at all. There are pretty much zero in Indianapolis. Think about that - a city with over 800,000 people, and no place to play.

If we want to play on location, it's up to Lafayette we go.

I love you Molly
Truthfully, I am sorry if you think I am saying "location ball sucks". I would love to play on location...unfortunately, there is no where near me to play (in Canada that is). I do have a lot of love for good OP's, I just don't know any! Anyone that takes pride in their work (be it Pinball machines, Art or anything) is pretty darn good in my books!

Yeah.... me too. This was not intended as a rant a out on location games. Its a lament if anything, a lament to the sad exposure most people get, to poorly maintained games that are not really pinball any more than a car with three wheels and no engine is a form of transportation. I would love to go dump 20 bucks on pinball and another 20 on beer and have a great evening, or popcorn and soda... but thats simply impossible so far as I can tell. And I live in an area with over a million people. Seriously. I may be missing a golden find, but I have looked and looked on line and it dont exist.

I think whomever said that the ops have found another way to make money, without pinball... was right. The places I know that have 6 + machines also have 60 + other machines with a ton of ticket reward type games, and people stack up to dump nickels or quarters into these to win 30 tickets so they cab go buy a 10 cent piece of candy at the end of the day... I bet they bank on that.

I don't think any of us are "crapping" on you or location ball. Anyone who loves pinball understands the upside of location ball. Unfortunately, in many locations, the reality is "bad location ball is still on life support" (which reflects poorly on pinball in general).

In any event, I'll be in LA in November...would love to support your pins while I'm out!

Molly, we are all aware there are "places", but for some of us that is no where in a day's drive. I've heard of many spots where they have machines in great shape, and if I ever venture there for whatever reason, I would check it out. I used to want to plan a Vegas trip just for the PHOF, but after hearing how the games are kept there, and hearing an interview with Tim where even he said he has no intentions of using some of the money for repairs, I lost interest.

I've seen your vids. If I'm even in your neck of the woods, I would most definitely check your place out, as I would Lloyd's and some others.

That black film protects and comes off better than mylar to reveal a super clean and new looking PF underneath.

How about some experiences with good operators then? Has someone found a new pinball OP they got a chance to talk to?

What an interesting thread.

I played an AC/DC at the mall in Harrisonburg, VA that had exactly the same problems you describe above. I still had fun with it though as was my first time playing it, and don't find many arcades anymore. Seemed to me the pin was set up kind of low too, but that may be to accomodate kids.

It is pretty sad to see! I had this happen to me while vacationing with my family in Pensacola, FL last year. I got on the Pinside map and found "Hellenbach" in neighboring Ft. Walton Beach which was about 40 miles away. They had a Twilight Zone, Bride Of Pinbot and Rollercoaster Tycoon on site. All three were horribly maintained! All three were VERY dirty, numerous lights out, bad displays, broken functions, etc...

Hellenbach pretty much summed up the experience.

That's the one. I haven't noticed anything off about the height though.

I find most places that have 1 pin do not take care of their machine. Any place with a line up of 2+ usually has their sh*t together.

We all started as players. To me, the base of the hobby is the player. If you're a semi-regular player, you're in the hobby. From there, it branches down to the collector, location player, restorer, tourney player, operator etc. True casual players, which are becoming even more rare these days, aren't hobbyist. But the rest of us are all in. One awesome big ass hobby.

As an operator and a regular location player, that's the way it came across to me.

We've all seen dirty and broken games on location. Complaining here accomplishes nothing. If the location situation in your area sucks, do something about it. Talk to the operator. If that doesn't work, talk to the business owner. I've done it and had good results. Location play is picking up all over the country. Please keep things going in the right direction.

I feel ya, I have many machines on location and they are constant work to maintain clean/working... the money I make doesn't even cover my time let alone parts and such...

If I had the space to put them somewhere else I would probably take them off location, but I enjoy sharing them with others

Good idea! There are a bunch of good "new" operators. Bobby C up in Washington comes to mind first for me...good guy, nice games, hard worker, engaged in maintaining a healthy local community.

Please don't lecture me. I'm not complaining, I'm educating folks on the state of public pinball in South Florida (and comments are 100% in line with the spirit of this subject/thread).

I'm very proud that you have good results. Atta boy!

At this point, I'll sign off this thread...chow.

Pretty wild that I guessed the exact machine and city/state just based on your description. Can't believe the lightning bolt is still on the playfield. I played it 3 weeks ago or so, and they haven't fixed it yet??? Really loved the AC/DC pin though. I don't know why the height of the pin struck me as off that day. I must have been feeling tall.

I agree. Nothing worse than seeing nice game on route and nobody playing them.

LTG : )

I went to Pinball Pete's in Ann Arbor and it was shameful. I don't mind it when pins are broken or turned off, even when 6 of the 18 games were. These are very complex mechanical and electronic machines. Faults happen. What makes me upset is when my father told the person working there that LotR's left flipper wasn't working and he DIDN'T turn the machine off. I went to get some more quarters, and came back to see some poor kid struggling to play with one working flipper. That's slimy.

What really upsets me, though, is a dirty or worn playfield. A broken switch or plastic may have happened recently and is fairly easily repaired or replaced. A bad playfield, however, doesn't just happen in one day. It takes years of lax maintenance to let all the inserts wear off like on the Attack from Mars. Even longer for it to get worn down to the wood, like on their Funhouse. That must be why they are thrown in the back, in the darkness. Medieval Madness is only a little worn and is out in the light, which is handy because almost none of the GI is working in the back, and both flippers struggle to make ramps. That's three A-list titles that aren't doing much to make pinball more appealing to the masses.

you are assuming that they got them all NIB

also plastics are not always easily replaced, find me WCS94 plastics, or SMB plastics etc etc

I am a collector, operator, service tech (self taught, and pinside guided), player, and FAN of pinball. I have had pins on location for roughly 7 years, I started with one machine, then started adding more over the years. From an owner/operators perspective the investment in time, labor, and parts makes it hard to keep multiple pins up and running, a flipper rebuild at $50 plus a service techs hourly rate quickly turns into a massive investment into a machine that might bring in $200 a month(which is split between the op, and the location. With the op getting the worst of the deal as the op pays for the parts and tech out of their split or own pocket, the location gets their $100, and the op is possibly in the hole after all that) Bottom line is finding a pin on location is a pleasure, playing a mostly working game is still always better than not playing pinball at all. I will always have at least one pin on location, and will do my best to make sure it is as close to perfect as I can. The playfield may be dirty, some lamps may be out, and there maybe a cracked plastic or a broken switch, but it's still $.50 a game....

yep pretty much, I love the entitlement attitude here that all machines on location must look like they came out of the box and work 100%... get real, be glad people are letting you play them period, not many true "operators" out there, most are operator/collectors or collector/operators

Seriously had bad luck down this way lately on routed pins, been going from place to place to see which tittles I like more than others , and so many are unplayable, which makes so many people uninterested in the game.. And there not cheap to play on location to, they could at least have them running close to 100% if there going to ask the sort of money they do for credits, some Ive tried to play lately are not even running at 30%...

I don't think people are expecting them NIB condition. But a lot of games out there that are just wrecked and unplayable. If pinball is to remain it must get new players. It's hard to do that when the few out there are looked at as pieces of junk that don't do what they are supposed to.

I have 5 on location in my bar and they are kept in good condition. There are minor problems like you will always have with games, but by staying on top of maintenance I get a lot of new people involved in pinball because they can actually enjoy and see how the game is supposed to be played. But if pinball is to rely on collectors alone it will for sure die. We need operators out there that take the time to keep games up to get new players involved and grow the game.