The Parts express one you linked is a dual voice coil. Not what you want.

The Amazon one might be OK, but it has a very low efficiency (90dB) so it is not a great choice either.

Are you set on an 8" woofer? I just put a 12" one from MCM in my No Fear. It sounds very nice and was not expensive.

Here is a link to the one I used:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-3212?t=2&utm_expid=8634549-14&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Felectronics.mcmelectronics.com%2Fsearch%3Fcataf%3D%26view%3Dlist%26w%3D12%2522%2Bwoofer%26x%3D0%26y%3D0

By the way, the one I linked is rated at 96dB efficiency - that means it takes 4X as much power into a 90dB speaker to make the same volume level as the 96dB speaker. Since the amp in No Fear is rated at 35 Watts - you would need a 140 watt amp to make it play as loud as the stock amp with the MCM woofer.

I did not add an amp to my No Fear. It does not make pounding bass sounds, but the bass is present and full sounding compared to the stock speaker which barely had any bass at all. It does now rattle the glass a bit, which it never did before.

I picked up Goldwood GW-8024 8" Butyl Surround Woofer 4 Ohm - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-356 for my TRON PRO...

I started a thread about 10 months ago...
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stock-stern-speakers-vs-ff-frequency-response

RacerRik has some really good information here and is pretty much in the money. Except the amp data. The IJ (and no fear) uses tda2030a amps which run 18w at 4 ohms and 12w at 8 ohm. I think a 12" sub is a bit too big for an 18watt amp even if its so extremely efficient. Actually, the efficiency of a 96db speaker on an 18 watt amp is similar to a 90db speaker on a 72 watt amp. So it might be worth a try. But if the mcm 10" or 8" is similar efficiency I think I'd go that route. The DCS is already crossed over so no need for inductor. Add some padding to the backbox like 20 ohm resistor to lower the vol and get more bass.

I think if it were me I would grab this:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-3211?t=2&utm_expid=8634549-14
It's the same thing just a 10" version. Basically same efficiency. Should do better on lower power.

The cut out is for a 6.5". Just center the speaker over the cut out hole and you'll be ok.

Without getting too technical, you want to pick a subwoofer driver with a mid to high "Q",or Qts.

Low Q subwoofers work best in ported cabinets. (Q of .2 - .3)

Mid Q subwoofers work best in sealed cabinets. (Q of .4 - .5+)

High Q subwoofers prefer large "lossy" cabinets or no cabinet. (Q of .6 or higher)

People usually end up buying a low Q driver for a pinball cabinet because they are more expensive and usually have larger magnets. Don't. Use a mid or high Q driver. They will give you far more output for the same power in a pinball cabinet. Because of the cabinet's large internal volume, the driver will usually run out of usable excursion before it runs out of power in a pinball machine.

Sensitivity is very misleading when it comes to subwoofers. It really only determines output above 100 Hz. Below this frequency the cabinet size, tuning and driver specs determine it. Do not buy according to sensitivity.

The Boss CX8 is a perfect candidate for a pinball cab. It has a very high Qts and good power handling. It also has a 4 ohm load which works well with that Dayton amp. I just can't find any xmax (excursion) specs so I don't know what its limits are.

The Dayton 8" is also a good candidate. You can wire the two coils together in parellel to get a 4 ohm load. It also has a great excursion capability for an 8 inch driver. However, it has a little lower Q than the Boss.

If you don't mind using a larger driver and you wanted the most bang for your buck, I would use this:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-366

The high Q, low resonance frequency and large cone area would result in amazing performance in a pinball cabinet with very little amplifier power.

If you give me a day or two, I can model up bunch of drivers in my speaker simulation program for you. There are a few cheaper Parts Express drivers that might even work better. Let me know if you're interested.

Those are mono subwoofer amps, so they are actually just 70W x 1 and 25W x 1. I honestly don't think you will need 70 watts. The size of the cabinet is the great equalizer here. Normally you are throwing in a bunch of power to overcome the size of the box. Pinball cabinets are huge, so the rules are different. Plus, the difference between 70 watts and 35 watts is only 3 deciBels.

I will model up some of the drivers with different power levels in the next day or two and let you know what might work best. This will be fun to compare!

Those are actually ok. They are 8 ohm but very efficient. I used them quite a bit before.

Hang on there. The post I made in the other thread was related to adding an amp in order to try to work around your blown up internal cabinet amp. If you're using the speakers I have been recommending in this thread or even the wh88, the 25 mono sub amp I pasted in the other thread was just fine.

Markmon, can you explain how a woofer can be too big for an amp. I don't get that.

And yes, you were correct about the stock amp power - I was looking at the data sheet for the tda2030a and looked at the wrong section - it is only 18 watts into 4 ohms - but that is still quite a bit unless you are trying to play it really loud.

There is no such thing as a woofer being "too big" for an amp. A larger driver with more surface area and higher sensitivity will typically be more efficient than a smaller driver with the exact same power. Again, no such thing as a driver being too big for an amp.

Yea, its bad wording. It cant be too big. But bigger speakers are generally need more juice to really start moving some air. I know the specs for that speaker you pasted shows great sensitivity, but well, I'm not sure I trust that stat. I guess best is to just get a couple of each and see for myself.

This is all great info... as I would like to upgrade 6-10 standard B/W base speakers, w/o breaking the bank.

Plus, I didn't want to purchase an amp either. They don't need to sound like a concert. I would be most interested in hearing the best set-up ie; 6.5'' vs 8" vs 10", then 4ohm vs 8ohm, from approx $15 -$25 a base.

I've been window shopping at MCM Electronics. They appear to have some great bang for the buck speakers.

Thanks!

This is just another one of those old audio myths. Efficiency is efficiency. Larger speakers typically need less juice for the same output because of the larger surface area and greater efficiency.

Hi Ditto just a few observations on your desired upgrades. The 25 watt dayton amp is not enough for the type of boost you are looking for. I have the same amplifier on an 8 inch subwoofer in a surround sound system in the den and it is just adequate however...The Dayton 75 watt is great. I have it on 2 machine set-ups and it is much more than enough. One is a dual 8 inch woofer installation and the other is a 12 inch woofer set-up. Here are some links to my installs.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dr-who-12-inch-subwoofer-upgrade
http://www.youtube.com/embed/PyYY620C1Fg?autoplay=1&rel=0

Any questions I'm happy to answers : )

No I don't think it's a myth. A bigger speaker generally has a lower resonation frequency. It takes more power to generate equal dbs at lower frequencies because the speakers have to move more to loudly reproduce lower freqs. The problem is exasperated by the unreliable specification measurements by the manufacturers. So you can't trust the efficiency ratings or know what they are against. 96db at 1 watt 1 meter vs 87 db sounds like a huge difference. But if one is taken with white noise and the other with rap music, the db readings can be vastly different.

You just pop that whole square wood piece out and put the bigger speaker on the floor of the cabinet. That Dayton amp is fine. That infinity speaker might be too tall. Stick with the mcm stuff posted above with that amp. That's my recommendation.

Great thread. can someone send me the link to the thread someone started about best external subwoofer. Thought it was about a month ago and thought i was about $100 and you could actually hook 2 games up and share one. It had a link where to purchase on amazon I believe

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/polk-psw-10-external-sub-for-pinball-on-sale-80

Those amazon subs go on sale often and they sound amazing connected to a pin!

I can't wait to see where the internal sub discussion ends up, I'd love to go through all of mine with internal rather than keep adding externals.

I just ordered one of these. http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-2982-/55-2982?t=2&utm_expid=8634549-14&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcmelectronics.com%2Fbrowse%2F12''-Woofers%2F0000000261

The specs on it look better than the other MCM woofer. Of course it is more expensive but still very reasonable cost. After I get it, I can let you know how it compares to the other one. As Markmon indicated, you can't really tell what a speaker will sound like from the specs - you gotta try it out with your ears.

Comparing the specs - the Goldwood has a good Qts figure, which means it should work well in the large cabinet of a pinball machine. Its sensitivity is only 90dB/watt which is significantly less than the MCM speaker. Its Xmax is only 3mm which seems very limited for a 12" woofer and makes it seem unlikely that the speaker really produces significant output at the claimed 30 Hz low end.

Based on specs alone, the $40 MCM speaker I linked above blows both of the other two out of the water. I can't wait until it gets here and I can test it out!

That said, without listening to each of them it is hard to pick which one is going to sound the best. And even then, that is a subjective judgement because some people love big, boomy bass and others like a smoother natural sounding bass.

Yeah - sorry, I linked the wrong one. I ordered the 4ohm version.

Here is the correct link.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-3242?t=2&utm_expid=8634549-14&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcmelectronics.com%2Fproduct%2FMCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-2982-%2F55-2982%3Ft%3D2

I have a flipper fidelity speaker system in one of my pins-I am not that impressed. Sounds good but not great. I am getting ready to blow up my speakers in my Tron. I am leaning towards Polk Audio external sub and Infinity speakers and then adding LED speaker kit? Anyone else done something high end on Tron?

Woodworker is right on with his analysis in this thread. I have designed and built many speakers and amps for that matter. Everything he has said fits into the traditional thiele parameter models that govern modern speaker physics / theory.

There are some real basic books on speaker design that are available for the DIY type of person on Amazon. I recommend picking these up for additional reference.

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-System-Engineering-Third-Davis/dp/0240808304

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Speaker-Enclosures-David-Weems/dp/B0011QB8E4

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=500-044&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

Be careful with Infinity speakers - they tend to sound very nice but have terrible sensitivity. Just check the specs and don't even consider anything less than 92 dB / watt sensitivity.

Pinball Pro installs easily and presents good bass.

Can agree with this. I installed their kit into my ID4 and it feels like I installed a shaker it moves so much air.

Dito... this is an awesome thread.

I'm hoping a couple guys will chime in on your 7 choices above.

I have many B/W titles I'm looking to upgrade. My buddy Martin recommends the MCM speakers as a great bang for the buck.

I'm also interested in seeing what others are putting in their backbox. I would really like to improve the mid's & high's there too.

I have 5 of my games with full speaker swap's and internal amp (GNR's / ACDC / Corvette / TZ / Tommy). They sound awesome. I just don't have the $$$ to improve another 6-10 that way.

Thanks for posting.
Kerry

Late to this thread but if you put in a speaker larger than the hole, you need to make the hole bigger. Korn answered this question back in 2006:

http://www.thekorn.net/speakers/cutcabinet/

viperrwk

I have a couple of those I picked up at a show. I put one in a Tron and one in a TAF. Neither with an amp and both crossed over. The TAF sounds great, the Tron awful. I pulled the one from the Tron and went with external sub. I don't know what the difference is, but would not recommend for your Tron!

I also tried a couple of the cheap but high sensitivity subs before and I couldn't tell any increase in volume. I figured the sensitivity numbers were bs, but woodworker's explanation sounds reasonable.

For the folks who want to go EXTREME.....and no for Centaur this is not overkill.

I put this in my Centaur with a 75 watt amp and cleaned up the sound board by re-doing the circuits to reduce the noise. IT ROCKS beyond belief. The only thing you have to do is make sure you add an additional box to isolate the glass because it will blow apart the backglass and blow out the playfield glass. You have to buy the APT-50 tweeter and the 2 way cross over for the match (The recommended cross over is 3,500 Hz @ 45 watts with a 18 db/oct). Do some mods to the cabinet and it is a beautiful thing. Took it to the Texas pinball festival a few years back everyone was blown away. Plenty of bass and plenty of power.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-502

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-530

MCM 55-3242 came today! I installed it in my No Fear replacing the 55-3212. Once agin I learn the same lesson all over... Speaker specs don't mean shit! By the specs, I thought this woofer would have significantly more low bass. Nope - can't hardly tell any difference at all. If anything the cheaper speaker sounds a bit better.

Maybe it is because the sounds in No Fear don't have enough low bass content to make a difference. Or maybe it is because I only have the stock size hole in the cabinet. All I know is it sounds way better than stock with either speaker, so I just wasted some money on the new speaker as an experiment - at least I had fun doing it!

I will say the 55-3242 is a beast! It feels about twice as heavy as the 55-3212. The magnet is significantly bigger and the frame is very heavy duty. Too bad I can't recommend it!

Still not sure I believe that the small hole makes that much difference. If it does, how do the car stereo guys get around that problem with their bandpass enclosures? Either way, I am not cutting a 12" hole in the bottom of my pinball machine. It sounds good enough the way it is.

Based on re-learning my lesson about judging speakers by specs, I can't recommend any of the 8" speakers that Dito was asking about. You just gotta roll the dice and pick one then try it out. I will say that for the money, I really think the MCM speakers offer a lot of bang for your buck. $18 for the 55-3212 seems unbelievably cheap for how nice the speaker is. And even $40 for the 55-3242 feels like a steal considering how super nice it is. It looks like a very expensive competition car speaker. And it might even sound as good as one, I just don't think my No Fear with the small hole and the small amplifier and quesitonable music content is a very good test for the speaker.

But as a pinball sound upgrade - this whole process was succesful and fun.

Rick,
How about an upgrade to your Getaway? The ZZ Top riff would sound great through one of your speaker upgrades.
Don

I might do that someday! I have a few other pinball projects ahead of that though... I finally got around to putting the shaker in AC/DC last night. Pretty cool mod that is!

I am going to build a shaker from scratch and put in my STTNG next. Plus I need to replace the wiring harnesses on the cannons. And troubleshoot Flash which I think is having a switch matrix problem. And mod and install the toy cannon I bought for AC/DC. As you can see I have a ton of pinball stuff to work on plus I need to get back to my bathroom remodelling project and finish that up. There just never seems to be enough free time to do all this fun stuff!

So what did you do to lower the backbox volume? Screwing in the new speaker is only part of the task. Lowering the vol of the backbox to better balance the bass is the next step. My no fear has decent bass. I have a wh88 in it.

To get optimal air movement you need to cut the hole to match the speaker. But that doesn't mean a 10" on a non cut hole doesn't out perform a 6" on the same hole. It only means that a 10" on a 10" hole outperforms a 10" on a 6" cut hole. This does not translate to "you need to cut the hole".