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(Topic ID: 270759)

Stuck on 3rd Magnet Project...


By iamabearsfan

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 33 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 84 days ago by iamabearsfan
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 months ago

All:

Tried this on a different part of Pinside, hoping someone here may have the answer. A long time ago I purchased a "Third magnet Kit" at expo. In the box was a couple Optos. The pix are below. The problem is I am not positive which is the Kathode and Anode on the Transmitter, and which is the Collector and Emitter on the Receiving Opto. The interesting part is they are marked, but don't appear to be used. The wires (which are not labeled) are connected to other solder points on the board.

If I can't get this answered, here is my next question. Can I do any harm to these things if I put the wires on the wrong way on either side? I really don't want to assume though. There are a lot of changes to make this 3rd magnet work and would like to get this right so I am not chasing shadows. I guess another option would be to buy a new pair of optos.

Any info/ideas would be greatly appreciated...

Dave

Screen Shot 2020-06-07 at 12.28.08 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2020-06-07 at 12.28.21 PM (resized).png
#2 4 months ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

All:
Tried this on a different part of Pinside, hoping someone here may have the answer. A long time ago I purchased a "Third magnet Kit" at expo. In the box was a couple Optos. The pix are below. The problem is I am not positive which is the Kathode and Anode on the Transmitter, and which is the Collector and Emitter on the Receiving Opto. The interesting part is they are marked, but don't appear to be used. The wires (which are not labeled) are connected to other solder points on the board.
If I can't get this answered, here is my next question. Can I do any harm to these things if I put the wires on the wrong way on either side? I really don't want to assume though. There are a lot of changes to make this 3rd magnet work and would like to get this right so I am not chasing shadows. I guess another option would be to buy a new pair of optos.
Any info/ideas would be greatly appreciated...
Dave[quoted image][quoted image]

First, I believe you soldered the wires in the wrong place.
On the first pic, at the top of the board, is "K" and "A". "K" is usually the Cathode, and "A" is Anode. Seeing as how they're right there near some thu-holes, my guess is that is where the wires SHOULD be soldered.
Same for the board on the bottom - though the 'C' and 'E' are on the LED, and not the thru-holes.

#3 4 months ago
Quoted from Coyote:

First, I believe you soldered the wires in the wrong place.
On the first pic, at the top of the board, is "K" and "A". "K" is usually the Cathode, and "A" is Anode. Seeing as how they're right there near some thu-holes, my guess is that is where the wires SHOULD be soldered.
Same for the board on the bottom - though the 'C' and 'E' are on the LED, and not the thru-holes.

That is the thing. I bought the kit and these optos came pre-wired. I didn't do any of this work. So cut these off and solder them on the indicated holes? Just curious why they did what they did.

#4 4 months ago

Are there traces on the back of these boards that connect the soldered on wires to the correct spot?

#5 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Are there traces on the back of these boards that connect the soldered on wires to the correct spot?

Good question. I tried doing that except the optos are so big that you can't see anything. See attached pix...

IMG_4605 (resized).jpegIMG_4607 (resized).jpeg
#6 4 months ago

Yeah they are. Do you have a meter to ohm out to see if there is connection between the wires and the opto?

Although there is some other circuitry on the board, so maybe the wires aren’t suppose to go directly to the opto?

Possibly someone who is familiar with that kit will chime in.

#7 4 months ago

To make it a bit easier I would just buy an original set of boards....look at page 1-45 in the manual too..

https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-infared-led-opto-assembly-set.html

Here is a picture I also found for reference..

williams_optos_back (resized).jpg
#8 4 months ago

Don’t know who made that kit. It’s not the Pinbits one. From Pinbits website, their board has a circuit on it too. So the bare board recommended above is most likely incorrect. Suggest it should be hooked up the way it is currently wired.

See Pinbits board picture as evidence that the resistor and diode belong in the circuit.

Isn’t there a color convention for anode and cathode on these boards. I’m remembering there is but not which is which. Check the TZ manual and I think you have your answer.

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#9 4 months ago

Ok, here is the color code
17B2DB3A-285A-4D0F-B795-798D87AFF3C8 (resized).png

Double check me

Transmitter:
Anode = Gray
Cathode = Black

Receiver:
Collector = White
Emitter = Green

#10 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Ok, here is the color code
[quoted image]
Double check me
Transmitter:
Anode = Gray
Cathode = Black
Receiver:
Collector = White
Emitter = Green

Okay, that is huge. Someone was thinking ahead with the color wires they used for the kit. I didn't think about that. Thanks tons! I will report back how this worked out. Of course the other 82 things you need to do to make the 3rd magnet work had to be done correctly as well

We will see!

#11 4 months ago

I let you blaze the trail. I have the Pinbits kit and 3rd magnet repro playfield as a future swap project..

#12 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Ok, here is the color code
[quoted image]
Double check me
Transmitter:
Anode = Gray
Cathode = Black
Receiver:
Collector = White
Emitter = Green

Sigh, spoke too soon. So the Green/White wired opto I have is labeled RX for Receiver. Then the other one with gray/black wires are labeled TX for Transmitter. Completely opposite of the diagram you found.

I think I am just going to spend the $18 and have a set shipped to me that is correct. This hobby can drive ya batty sometimes! .

Thanks again for the help though...

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#13 4 months ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

So the Green/White wired opto I have is labeled RX for Receiver. Then the other one with gray/black wires are labeled TX for Transmitter. Completely opposite of the diagram you found.

Isn’t that exactly what the manual says, not the opposite?

#14 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Isn’t that exactly what the manual says, not the opposite?

Yes, until you get to the K/A & C/E. They are backwards right? I have only had two cups of coffee. Maybe I am looking at this wrong?

#15 4 months ago

Ah, I see what you mean. The letters K/A and C/E are on the wrong boards. BUT, the board labeled Transmitter is printed "OPT" and the board labeled Receiver is printed "OPR" with the correct wire colors.

When you compare the two devices, does the one labeled transmitter poke out from the housing more than the one labeled receiver? See the side view shown in the manual.

#16 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Ah, I see what you mean. The letters K/A and C/E are on the wrong boards. BUT, the board labeled Transmitter is printed "OPT" and the board labeled Receiver is printed "OPR" with the correct wire colors.
When you compare the two devices, does the one labeled transmitter poke out from the housing more than the one labeled receiver? See the side view shown in the manual.

The one labeled "TX" does bump out more. So that would lead me to believe it is the transmitter, the wires are good, but the board is then questionable? Maybe that explains why the letters are not used? Very confusing to me why they would have switched these, unless it was a simple mistake? There is clearly some different components on each board.

#17 4 months ago

Seems like the K/A and C/E are typos. Do you know the manufacturer to possibly confirm?

#18 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Seems like the K/A and C/E are typos. Do you know the manufacturer to possibly confirm?

I don't. Just ordered a new set. Simply not worth taking the chance of chasing my tail laster on. I have enough challenges with the rest of this project. As you can probably tell, I am just a little over my head

Thanks again for the help!

Dave

#19 4 months ago

Opened my Pinbits kit from its 2007 time capsule.

The transmitter side black wire labeled ‘E’ and white wire labeled ‘C’ on the board appears to have no electronics beside LED and it protrudes from the housing as illustrated in the manual. But really should be labeled K/A?

The receiver side white wire is labeled ‘+’ and green ‘-‘ has a resistor, diode and what looks like a small chip on the board. The receiver footprint shows where the flat side is oriented to the left (negative).

In all these pictures the Collector of the receiver is on the left and should be the White wire, not the green wire like it says in the manual?

Anybody use the Pinbits or this other kit successfully as wired?

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#20 4 months ago

Picture of the optos of the Pinbits kit from their website matches yours. So it looks like you have the newer version of the Pinbits kit.

DSCN1724_small (resized).JPG
#21 4 months ago

I think the boards are correctly wired. It looks to me like the same board is used for the transmitter and receiver. One side is transmitter. The other side is receiver. When you look at the board as it's wired you're looking at the SOLDER side. Usually silkscreening is done for the COMPONENT side. I bet (and I have no evidence for this other than suspicion) that if you unscrew the boards from the plastic mount you'll find that they're the same board. Just populated on the opposite side for the desired functionality.

The transmitter looks correct. It's a simple circuit that runs the power (gray) wire through the anode to the cathode and then to the ground (black) wire. If you connect this to a board connector you'll need a 270@2W resistor. You could run this in parallel with an already present wire to tap on the already current limited connection.

The receiver looks like a slotted opto switch circuit. It contains a current limiting resistor and a diode for switch matrix connection. Rather than place the switch directly on the matrix like other Williams slotted opto boards it appears to use a surface mounted transistor (wild guess - a 2N3904 equivalent) to switch the row to column current to act like a physical switch. With this wiring you don't need the additional "11th" switch daughter board that somebody documented as a "piggy back" to the custom 10-opto board in Twilight Zone.

Lo-and-behold ... the Pinbits documentation confirms the above.

http://iobium.com/third_magnet_project.htm

#22 4 months ago

Perfect. Appreciate the confirmation and very thorough explanation!

Good call on the reversible board theory. Saw this in the link you provided-

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#23 4 months ago

I have never been so confused on a project before. So here is where I went terribly wrong. I assumed (yes, that very ugly word) that there was one way of doing the 3rd magnet. I went to the Pinbits site and it didn't work, so I posted on here. Then someone threw out the German site. So I started down that road. What I did was use the German site to complete this project with the Pinbits kit. Huge mistake.

Now I have a hybrid between the two. I need to thank Dumbass and emsrph. They have opened my eyes to this. I think I am going to reach out to Dumbass to see if I can steal his handle

So this is where I sit. I did the high power board. I think that is okay. Pic attached. I installed the magnet. I think that is good. I need to UNDO the extra work I did to create the 11th Opto. I can't believe I did all of that work and spent the money on the components when I had the stuff all along! Sigh. I am at the point of this project where I am regretting ever taking it on. It is overwhelming to say the least. I decided to bite off more than I can chew (I think). BUT felt this way when I did my IJ many moons ago. I just need to relax, have a beer, and figure it out!

I may be posting more ?'s.....but thanks all. Sorry for all of the confusion. Having the instruction site http://iobium.com/third_magnet_project.htm was really the missing link for sure.
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#24 4 months ago

Hey iamabearsfan you don't have to remove your newly created 11th opto board if you go with bare optos like those pictured in post #7 above.

I think you do have to shim though to make them taller like the Pinbits ones.

Hang in there.

#25 4 months ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Hey iamabearsfan you don't have to remove your newly created 11th opto board if you go with bare optos like those pictured in post #7 above.
I think you do have to shim though to make them taller like the Pinbits ones.
Hang in there.

I decided to go with Pinbits because I trust his work on the Opto board MUCH more than my own!

3 weeks later
#26 3 months ago

Ok, I am going to revive this thread with a dumb question.
The third magnet kits are no longer listed as available on the pinbits2 website, so I have been piecing together my own kit.

I have the magnet setup, and the driver installed on the under playfield driver board. What I am missing is the Opto setup for the magnet.

Now it is my understanding that in order to drive the opto off of the switch matrix rather run through the opto board, you have to have a special high amperage opto setup, like the the ones pictured in the first post of this thread. If you try to use the bare Williams optos, they will work for a little bit, and then burn out.

Does anyone know where I could buy a set of high amperage optos to use in my 3rd magnet install?

#27 3 months ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Now it is my understanding that in order to drive the opto off of the switch matrix rather run through the opto board, you have to have a special high amperage opto setup, like the the ones pictured in the first post of this thread. If you try to use the bare Williams optos, they will work for a little bit, and then burn out.

Bare ("standard") opto boards just have an emitter (light emitting diode) and receiver (photo-transistor) on separate boards. The opto board itself drives the emitter and translates the output of the receiver to a form that is compatible with the switch matrix circuitry.

The emitter requires a current limiting resistor (prevents the LED from burning out). The output of the receiver is either full voltage (+12VU) or no voltage (0V).

You don't necessarily need an opto board (with comparators, etc). You can apply the same circuitry as the slotted opto boards. The slotted optos are an emitter and receiver in one package. See the excerpt following from the original clock opto board schematic.

Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Does anyone know where I could buy a set of high amperage optos to use in my 3rd magnet install?

http://iobium.com/opto_board.htm has the information that you need. Specifically the "left" image @ http://iobium.com/third_2.jpg shows the circuit and the "right" image @ http://iobium.com/third_4.jpg shows the layout.

The board is very small and is easy to make (for someone with board making experience). I recently re-did the Banzai Run interconnect board but only received a handful of requests. I had one run made and didn't need to order another. Unfortunately ... I think this board would fall under the same category of lack of demand after fabrication.

opto.jpg
2 weeks later
#28 3 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Bare ("standard") opto boards just have an emitter (light emitting diode) and receiver (photo-transistor) on separate boards. The opto board itself drives the emitter and translates the output of the receiver to a form that is compatible with the switch matrix circuitry.
The emitter requires a current limiting resistor (prevents the LED from burning out). The output of the receiver is either full voltage (+12VU) or no voltage (0V).
You don't necessarily need an opto board (with comparators, etc). You can apply the same circuitry as the slotted opto boards. The slotted optos are an emitter and receiver in one package. See the excerpt following from the original clock opto board schematic.

Ok, I am revisiting this subject after a bit more research. The wiring diagram linked above is a bit deceiving. J1 is not connected to the switch matrix. It actually goes to the minute opto board, which in term connect the Optos to the 10 opto driver board under the playfield. That board does not have any extra capacity. So this leaves be back into the same boat.

Screen Shot 2020-07-25 at 11.48.37 AM (resized).png

Looking at the wiring diagram on the iobum website, it appears they are running a small transistor connected to the receiving LED. I have no information on the transistor, so right now I am kinda stuck. I did find some information on the net about expanding the opto board, but that looks a bit onerous.

#29 3 months ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

J1 is not connected to the switch matrix. It actually goes to the minute opto board, which in term connect the Optos to the 10 opto driver board under the playfield. That board does not have any extra capacity. So this leaves be back into the same boat.

Sorry. Don't take this personally. The second part of your statement above is not correct. Yes ... the hour board connects to the minute board. The minute board connects directly to the switch matrix - not the 10-opto board. The switch matrix row wires connect at J3. The switch matrix column wire connects at J2 (along with the power and GI wires). The 10-opto board is NOT involved with these optos. The 10-opto board is used for discrete emitter/receiver pairs not slotted optos. The "output" (CE = the emitter side) of the slotted optos is directly connected to the switch matrix wires.

Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

Looking at the wiring diagram on the iobum website, it appears they are running a small transistor connected to the receiving LED. I have no information on the transistor, so right now I am kinda stuck. I did find some information on the net about expanding the opto board, but that looks a bit onerous.

Quoted from DumbAss:

The receiver looks like a slotted opto switch circuit. It contains a current limiting resistor and a diode for switch matrix connection. Rather than place the switch directly on the matrix like other Williams slotted opto boards it appears to use a surface mounted transistor (wild guess - a 2N3904 equivalent) to switch the row to column current to act like a physical switch. With this wiring you don't need the additional "11th" switch daughter board that somebody documented as a "piggy back" to the custom 10-opto board in Twilight Zone.

In summary for discrete emitter/receiver pairs:

1) You can only use "bare" emitter/receiver boards when driven by additional circuitry - contained on the 10-opto board.
2) You can put the additional circuitry onto custom emitter/receiver boards (can be combined into a single board like the Pinbits boards).
3) You can put the additional circuitry directly into the circuit and use bare emitter/receiver boards.

If you don't use the additional circuitry you will blow the emitter LED - i.e. it needs a current limiting resistor (270 Ohm @ 2W on the board or 470 Ohm @ 0.5W when a slotted opto is used).

Putting the receiver directly on the switch matrix wiring works because despite the current leakage in the "dark" state the voltage is low enough that the voltage comparators (LM339) on the CPU detect the correct state. The transistor is used to isolate the receiver from the switch matrix and remove the current leakage in the "dark" state. It's a cleaner solution from an electrical standpoint but due to the nature of the circuit is not 100% required - proof is the slotted optos work just fine.

#30 3 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Sorry. Don't take this personally. The second part of your statement above is not correct. Yes ... the hour board connects to the minute board. The minute board connects directly to the switch matrix - not the 10-opto board. The switch matrix row wires connect at J3. The switch matrix column wire connects at J2 (along with the power and GI wires). The 10-opto board is NOT involved with these optos. The 10-opto board is used for discrete emitter/receiver pairs not slotted optos. The "output" (CE = the emitter side) of the slotted optos is directly connected to the switch matrix wires.

Ok, I took a look at block diagram for the 10 opto board. You are correct. J5 connects directly to the switch matrix. It looks like the switch matrix wire is looped through J5 on its way to the CPU board.

Screen Shot 2020-07-25 at 4.06.46 PM (resized).png

#31 3 months ago

You got me thinking of an alternative solution to putting the circuitry on the emitter/receiver boards. The circuitry can be placed on an intermediate board. For those who have had security / cryptography experience ... think "man in the middle attack".

tz_3rd_magnet.jpg

It's a rendering / mock-up. I just placed an order for some prototype boards so this misses out on that order. It can be made in the next order if there's demand for it. With the board in place a "bare" emitter/receiver pair can be used. It's option #3 (above).

#32 3 months ago

I got it working this evening. I do admit to have cheated a little on the wiring for the emitter. Per Ed Chung's website: http://www.edcheung.com/album/album08/pinball/tz.htm I wired the emitter up in series with the right magnet emitter. I then hooked up the receiver to the white/red row and the green/gray column. I put the machine in switch test, and now have a working switch 82.

1 week later
#33 84 days ago

Thought I would update this thread and say thanks to all that contributed. I did get the Pinbits kit to work and now on to about 20 other issues during my PF swap

I do appreciate all of the help. Being a novice in this area can be fairly frustrating. This community on Pinside though is priceless. Hope to pay it forward someday when I am an "expert"

That will be a long time off for sure!......or simply never.......good to dream right?

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