(Topic ID: 259769)

STTNG weak flippers *solved*


By ViperVS

76 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 44 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 65 days ago by ViperVS
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 76 days ago

I have an issue with weak flippers.
I have rebuilt all flippers. Coils (3x 11629), sleeves, bats, bushings, plungers+links.
Also checked the transformer jumpering. It's on 230V, which is correct. I also tried lower one (220V I think). No difference.

Super clean and waxed playfield at 6,5 degrees.

I can never make the left orbit. And rarely the Delta quadrant.
Any suggestions what to try next?

#2 76 days ago

Have you cleaned the optos behind buttons?

#3 75 days ago
Quoted from wellarmed:

Have you cleaned the optos behind buttons?

Well...They might need some cleaning

IMG-3343 (resized).JPG
#4 75 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Well...They might need some cleaning [quoted image]

Your missing the whole flipper board!

#5 75 days ago
Quoted from pinmike:

Your missing the whole flipper board!

Yes, I noticed

Thanks for the tips. I’ll order one.

1 week later
#6 67 days ago

Installed new flipper optoboard. Fixed connector. Both flipper buttons working correctly in switch test (2 phases in correct order).

No noticeable difference in power though.

Should I even be able to make the left orbit all the way to the upper flipper with stopped/cradled ball? It currently just goes to lanes.

#7 67 days ago

Have you tried cleaning the contacts on the leaf switches?

#8 67 days ago
Quoted from Butch2099:

Have you tried cleaning the contacts on the leaf switches?

Not sure if this was a joke or not?

#9 67 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Not sure if this was a joke or not?

He could be referring to the EOS which is most likely your issue...

#10 67 days ago

I had a problem with my Whirlwind after rebuilding flippers that was similar and is easy to check. Even if the leaf switches are brand new, you need to take a dollar bill and run it through the contacts on the leaf switches in the flipper buttons and in the flipper mechanisms themselves. When they ship them, they include a very thin chemical coating to stop rust. I give it a 50% chance this fixes your issue, and if not it is something you can try for free with little/no risk to your machine. Good luck!

#11 67 days ago

Did coil sleeves go in easy ? no swelling of coils. Set EOS switches so they don't close till flipper is at end of stroke. What voltage do you have @ coils? How are connectors a flipper boards ?

#12 67 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Well...They might need some cleaning [quoted image]

You posted a picture of the cabinet Leaf switches. I've had in the past where those were not making good contact

#13 66 days ago
Quoted from Butch2099:

You posted a picture of the cabinet Leaf switches. I've had in the past where those were not making good contact

He just replaced those switches with optos.

Is the EOS adjusted properly? Not making contact too early?

#14 66 days ago
Quoted from pintime:

Did coil sleeves go in easy ? no swelling of coils. Set EOS switches so they don't close till flipper is at end of stroke. What voltage do you have @ coils? How are connectors a flipper boards ?

EOS switches are adjusted so they close at the very end. Flipper plungers are moving easily, no drag.
Measured 54Volts from all coils and all terminals/lugs.

I still don't have a anything to compare it to. Can someone please test how far the ball goes with the right flipper around the orbit from full stop? Should the Borg ship lock be easy to make?
Maybe I'm just imagining the whole issue. I mean the game is completely playable, but I thought the Picard maneuver was a lot easier to pull off, like in Bower tutorial video. Maybe the real problem is that I'm not Bowen?

#15 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

EOS switches are adjusted so they close at the very end. Flipper plungers are moving easily, no drag. I guess I need to measure the voltages. Is it possible with multimeter? I thought it's quite a short pulse...
I still don't have a anything to compare it to. Can someone please test how far the ball goes with the right flipper around the orbit from full stop? Should the Borg ship lock be easy to make?
Maybe I'm just imagining the whole issue. I mean the game is completely playable, but I thought the Picard maneuver was a lot easier to pull off, like in Bower tutorial video. Maybe the real problem is that I'm not Bowen?

It should go all the way around the orbit to the upper right flipper to set up a Picard manoeuvre shot.

#16 66 days ago
Quoted from arolden:

It should go all the way around the orbit to the upper right flipper to set up a Picard manoeuvre shot.

Even from dead stop (cradled ball)?

#17 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Even from dead stop (cradled ball)?

Yes. 11629s are the strongest type of coil. You should be able to hit all shots from a cradled ball.

Are the coil lug connections solid?

#18 66 days ago
Quoted from arolden:

Yes. 11629s are the strongest type of coil. You should be able to hit all shots from a cradled ball.
Are the coil lug connections solid?

Flippers are not the issue for sure. I have rebuilt more than 15 pairs and I know when they are working correctly (no drag, correct vertical play, bended coil stop etc). I have learned all that the hard way...

I removed the spinner and it made a difference. Now I can make the full orbit on 2 out of 3 times. It feels normal when spinned with finger. Maybe I should replace it. Also I noticed a slight play in the flap in front of the Delta ramp. I temporarely taped it to the playfield and it also improved slightly.

But man is it frustrating with these williams games. Same with T2 ramps. Shots have to be 100% correct or ball won't make it. I can only imagine the struggle with these on locations back in the day with filthy playfields and warn balls.

On Sterns (Star trek for example) not only will you easily make all the ramps and orbits, you can also back hand them. Flippers feel a bit overpowered even.

#19 66 days ago

I'm not at my game right now - but does anyone know if the upper right coil is also an 11629? I can barely make the delta ramp most times. It will make it occasionally but I don't feel like it's really getting up as well as it should

#20 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Flippers are not the issue for sure. I have rebuilt and serviced more that 15 of them and I know when they are working correctly (no drag etc).
I removed the spinner and it made a difference. Now I can make the full orbit on 2 out of 3 times. It feels normal when spinned with finger. Maybe I should replace it. Also I noticed a slight play in the flap in front of the Delta ramp. I temporarely taped it to the playfield and it also improved slightly.
But man is it frustrating with these williams games. Same with T2 ramps. Shots have to be 100% correct or ball won't make it. I can only imagine the struggle with these on locations back in the day with filthy playfields and warn balls.
On Sterns (Star trek for example) not only will you easily make all the ramps and orbits, you can also back hand them. Flippers feel a bit overpowered even.

This isn't an equal comparison. Your Sterns feel like they are working better only because they are 20+ years newer.
Old games have old parts, and have20 years of people messing with them

#21 66 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I'm not at my game right now - but does anyone know if the upper right coil is also an 11629? I can barely make the delta ramp most times. It will make it occasionally but I don't feel like it's really getting up as well as it should

According to the manual, yes it's the same one as the rest (11629). Make sure that the ramp side protector metal is securely in place. If there is slight play, it will decrease the speed. Same with the lower flap, it has to be solid.
But even with these conditions, making it all the way up to Borg ship lock is super rare thing.

#22 66 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

This isn't an equal comparison. Your Sterns feel like they are working better only because they are 20+ years newer.
Old games have old parts, and have20 years of people messing with them

Even compared to home use only that has every moving part rebuilt, it's still night and day. I'm sure the coils on williams are just less powerful to begin with.

#23 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

According to the manual, yes it's the same one as the rest (11629). Make sure that the ramp side protector metal is securely in place. If there is slight play, it will decrease the speed. Same with the lower flap, it has to be solid.
But even with these conditions, making it all the way up to Borg ship lock is super rare thing.

Thanks! I will check the flap as well. Hello to Finland, my favourite country in the world!

#24 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Even if you try the home use only with rebuild/replaced everything it's still night and day. I'm sure the coils are just less powerful to begin with.

#25 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

Flippers are not the issue for sure. I have rebuilt and serviced more that 15 of them and I know when they are working correctly (no drag etc).
I removed the spinner and it made a difference. Now I can make the full orbit on 2 out of 3 times. It feels normal when spinned with finger. Maybe I should replace it. Also I noticed a slight play in the flap in front of the Delta ramp. I temporarely taped it to the playfield and it also improved slightly.
But man is it frustrating with these williams games. Same with T2 ramps. Shots have to be 100% correct or ball won't make it. I can only imagine the struggle with these on locations back in the day with filthy playfields and warn balls.
On Sterns (Star trek for example) not only will you easily make all the ramps and orbits, you can also back hand them. Flippers feel a bit overpowered even.

T2 is a special case because the original coils were just too weak. Most people upgrade them to 11629s so you can make the ramp shots easily.

#26 66 days ago

Did you check the flipper bat itself? I've had cracked ones that caused issues

#27 66 days ago
Quoted from Butch2099:

Did you check the flipper bat itself? I've had cracked ones that caused issues

Replaced all of them. Brand new.

After seeing that there are a thousand topics about the same issue, I'm starting to believe that it's just the way it is. It does not help that it's a wide body. And the orbit feels endlessly long.
I guess my expectations were a bit too high after getting used to modern stern games.

#28 66 days ago

How about reseating J101 to the power driver board? These can tarnish and build resistance and lower the current.

#29 66 days ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

How about reseating J101 to the power driver board? These can tarnish and build resistance and lower the current.

Reseated all connectors and fuses on fliptronics and power driver board. No difference.

#30 66 days ago

Then I have to believe the alignment of the flipper bats needs to be adjusted. If you lower the bottom 2 flipper bats by 1-2mm, it will allow you to hit the orbits a bit easier. For the upper right flipper, you would need to raise it 1-2 mm.

#31 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

EOS switches are adjusted so they close at the very end. Flipper plungers are moving easily, no drag.
Measured 54Volts from all coils and all terminals/lugs.

This is fairly low for 50V with no load; you may have lost part of your bridge rectifier on the fliptronics board.

#32 66 days ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

How about reseating J101 to the power driver board? These can tarnish and build resistance and lower the current.

I think pinballmaniac40 meant to type J102

Also check J104/J105 as this is where the Fliptronics board gets its transformer voltage; and check/reset J901 on the Fliptonics board (AC Power In)

#33 66 days ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I think pinballmaniac40 meant to type J102

Yes. J102. Thank you

#34 66 days ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

This is fairly low for 50V with no load; you may have lost part of your bridge rectifier on the fliptronics board.

This sounds like a thing. How much should I be getting to coils?

#35 66 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

This sounds like a thing. How much should I be getting to coils?

Somewhere around 70V - 75V, the flipper voltage should be nearly identical to what you measure on the coils.

#36 66 days ago

Testing procedure for fliptronics bridge rectifier:

1> With the machine OFF, disconnect J901 AND J907 from the fliptronics board
2> Set your meter to diode test
3> Place the RED test lead on ground
4> Place the BLACK test lead on J901-1 ... expected measurement 460mV
5> Place the BLACK test lead on J901-5 ... expected measurement 460mV
6> Ensure your fuses on the fliptronics board are good
7> Place the BLACK test lead on J907-1
8> Place the RED test lead on J901-1 ... expected measurement 460mV
9> Place the RED test lead on J901-5 ... expected measurement 460mV

#37 65 days ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Testing procedure for fliptronics bridge rectifier:

Finally something solid. Thank you so much!

I measured:

RED on ground:
BLACK on J901-1 = 592mV
BLACK on J901-5 = 582mV

BLACK on J907-1:
RED on J901-1 = 586mV
RED on J901-5 = 562mV

So I'm missing 20% of the power...
Ordered new one.

#38 65 days ago

I have to admit, with those readings I would likely not replace it. That being said, if you have the fliptronics board out to replace BR1, and have the right equipment for doing board repair, I would recommend replacing C2 as well; since this is NOT a snap-in cap, it should be relatively easy to replace.

What voltage do you read on your other coils, or at your 50V test point on the power driver board?
pasted_image (resized).png

#39 65 days ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I would recommend replacing C2 as well.
What voltage do you read on your other coils, or at your 50V test point on the power driver board?
[quoted image]

There is no C2 on my fliptronics board. There is a place for it, but component missing. Place is factory clean too. I would guess it was never there.

Other coils measure around 71V

Power Driver Board TP6(50V) = around 90V

I already ordered the BR1. Is the replacement worth the hassle? I'm comfortable doing the board work myself if there is at least some improvement to be expected.

#40 65 days ago

I just realized that I have more than one pinball machine home. So I borrowed Fliptronics board from another one and now I'm getting "whopping" 71V to flipper coils. This is a deluxe version with C2 cap and everything . It did't revolutionize the gameplay, like I was hoping for.
But now if the ball has a little bit of speed to begin with, I can make the full left orbit.

#41 65 days ago
Quoted from ViperVS:

I just realized that I have more than one pinball machine home. So I borrowed Fliptronics board from another one and now I'm getting "whopping" 71V to flipper coils. This is a deluxe version with C2 cap and everything . It did't revolutionize the gameplay, like I was hoping for.
But now if the ball has a little bit of speed to begin with, I can make the full left orbit.

I can smoke the full orbit on my game with an awesome spinner rip to accompany it from a full cradle (great way to load crew into the shuttle for Escape mode), if you're game won't do that something is wrong or maybe you have the game too steep. The Delta ramp is a tough shot but a clean one should easily make the diverted loop, if it won't it will not make it over the hump into the Borg ship when lit for lock. Fixing the power supply on the Fliptronics board is a good first step.

#42 65 days ago

So after just replacing the Fliptronics board...
I lubed the gate under the borg ship. Also replaced the small rubber ring under it. I think it was way too thick and loose. So the ball probably hit it before and slowed down a bit. Also cleaned and waxed the whole orbit route.

I can now make the full orbit 100% of the time easily with cradled ball!

Also I can make the Delta ramp with clean shot with slow ball. And if the ball comes from the orbit it will go all the way up to the Borg lock.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!

Case closed!

#43 65 days ago

Nice, glad you got this nailed down!

Since you know that the problem is the Fliptronics board, you may want to just reflow solder to the headers and bridge rectifier and see if your voltage improves, if not, I would replace BR1. If it was my board I would also add C2, but that's entirely up to you.

I just looked at your machine list...very nice collection you have there.

#44 65 days ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Nice, glad you got this nailed down!
Since you know that the problem is the Fliptronics board, you may want to just reflow solder to the headers and bridge rectifier and see if your voltage improves, if not, I would replace BR1. If it was my board I would also add C2, but that's entirely up to you.
I just looked at your machine list...very nice collection you have there.

Thank you very much! Yours isn't that bad either

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