(Topic ID: 125552)

STTNG too much maintenance for a newbie?

By kesselrig

9 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 29 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by pezpunk
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

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#1 9 years ago

Hi all, I'm looking for my second pin after a NIB stern. A STTNG has come up for sale within a few hours drive that I'm considering. The theme is a fit and it's a machine I think I'd like to own.

However, I'm still learning basic maintenance. I can build a PC from scratch, but don't have experience maintaining electronics. I'm happy to learn, but I don't want to get in over my head or overpay for a project machine.

It is difficult to tell condition from the poor photos supplied so I've requested a new set. The listing states:

- Playfield is in very good condition, small amount of wear on top right where ball leaves habitrail
- Machine is error free
- Translite perfect
- Cabinet original, good colors and condition, small nick on front of cab
- LEDs added throughout
- Cliffy added to Neutral Zone
- New legs
- New Playfield glass
- New plastics
- Mirror blades
- Red DMD cover
- No lines out on DMD
- Chrome backbox trim & flippers
- Under cab lighting added

I'm hopeful that the cosmetic additions indicate a well maintained machine, but not sure if this is a reasonable expectation.

From research here, I understand that STTNG requires a lot of maintenance. Common trouble areas appear to be the cannons, optos, eddy sensors and diverter coils under the playfield.
Given that I don't have any experience with Williams machines, I'm trying to determine if (with a bit of research) I'd be able to run the diagnostics and identify if any of these items have issues during an inspection.

From there, it's a question of whether I'd be capable of addressing any issues identified. Assuming the playfield is in good condition, I think I'd insist on working cannons as its been stated that the machine is error free (and I'd lose confidence if an obvious item like this wasn't specified). Also, any burn marks on the wiring or transformer would mean I'd pass. I understand that optos, eddy sensors and diverter coils could be replaced, but I'm not sure how technically challenging this would be for me. Ultimately, I think I'll need to build these skills over time with this hobby, so maybe a small number of issues would be acceptable?

So my big questions are, do you think that I'd be able to properly assess the true condition of the machine? And is this too complex a machine to maintain given my current level of knowledge?

Appreciate any input.

#2 9 years ago

You can handle it. Seriously. All of the known issues with the game are covered in depth all over the web.

#3 9 years ago

FWIW, Ive had mine close to two years and it has been relatively error free. I think the game gets a bad rep for its "on location" history. I love mine and dont even think of it as being a high maintenance pin at all. Now shopping it out...that is another story

#4 9 years ago

Personally I think playfield condition is the most important thing. Everything else is a relatively cheap fix. Bring a flashlight, look for planking, cracks, lifted inserts. Playfield wear is hard to fix. I would walk away if I didn't like the playfield. Make sure there are no boards damaged or hacks. Run through all the tests, make sure there are no errors. If lights are out, ask why? Don't just assume a bulb is burned out, could mean board work. I have no problem re flowing solder to fix a light or opto but you should take off $ to fix that. Read the manual before you look at it so you know what to expect. Most of the parts on a Wiliams pin from this era are easy to find and as dsuperbee said you can find a solution for almost any problem on this forum IF you're willing to troubleshoot. BTW I just shopped mine and it's not that bad. Rebuilt flippers and coils, removed subway to clean, all new silicone rings and bands. Thorough cleaning all around. Took a few weeks (a couple hours at a time) but now it plays like a NIB and there's nothing like the satisfaction of knowing you made that happen. It's a 4K game when all is good.

#5 9 years ago

The game is one of the most problematic games out of the 90's. The game is so good, I would recomend buying it anyways. Even at the going rate, you would have a hard time buying a better machine for the price.

#6 9 years ago

First machine that I purchased. I've had to troubleshoot some issues with my STtNG. I still really enjoy playing it and highly recommend it. It's my favorite. Like you, I really had little or no electronics background but was comfortable building a pc. If you need help, you've always got the forums full of knowledgeable pinsiders. Go for it.

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from Tripin:

First machine that I purchased. I've had to troubleshoot some issues with my STtNG. I still really enjoy playing it and highly recommend it. It's my favorite. Like you, I really had little or no electronics background but was comfortable building a pc. If you need help, you've always got the forums full of knowledgeable pinsiders. Go for it.

This.

As long as you dont overload the 12v with mods, ops check and clean/r2 the optos, and rebuild the flippers you will have one of the best pins ever made in your collection for years. As long as its not a basket case when you buy it; it shouldnt be any more or less trouble than any other pin of the era.

I almost got rid of mine last year but thought better of it. Best decision ive made pin wise. I still smile every time i fire it up.

#8 9 years ago

It's a fantastic game and, once you master maintaining and learning all of the ins and outs, your teeth will be cut to handle any future game you may pick up.

One recommendation though, if you've never played STTNG... Get these: http://www.pinbits.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13_36&products_id=306

STTNG is a masterpiece, but it's a notorious drain monster, and these lane extenders may alleviate a bit of the frustration. It's bad enough that the outlanes are so unforgiving, but it's exacerbated by the fact that the outlanes are difficult to see due to the cannons positioning on top of the slingshots. AND the game weighs a metric shit-ton so nudging a ball out of an already brutal outlane (that you can barely see) can just add insult to injury.

Incredible game though, with outstanding theme integration. Grab it and enjoy!

#9 9 years ago

And I would recommend to move the red starpost above the right outlane to the bottom. The ball tends to drain there very quickly...

#10 9 years ago

If it's someting you want get it. Play it and learn. That's the fun in owning these amazing pins, is that playing it is way more rewarding if you tweak and fix things yourself. Plus troubleshooting and fixing items is fun in itself. It's pinball...

#11 9 years ago

Was mine second too

Like mentioned in this thread, all the issues are documented here and on the web.

Plenty of insight here on Pinside to guide you in maintaining this excellent pin.

Go get it!

#12 9 years ago

STTNG is like learning to fix and maintain pinball 101. I have had burnt molex connectors, left cannon issues, optos go out, adding LED kit-pain in the ass, DMD issue, diverter adjustments, trough issue,and transistors on power driver board. It has taught me a lot but it is also one of the best machines out there and it is like two machines in one. It does require constant maintenance but it is worth it.

#13 9 years ago

I was in the exact same boat as you about 2 years ago. I'd built lots of computers, and done a very tiny bit of soldering before. My first pin was Black Hole and I lucked out in that I've never had a single problem with it. My second was STTNG and it has required a bit more periodic maintence, but nothing someone like us can't handle. Just try to find one that's working already and doesn't have a credit dot and doesn't throw error messages after playing it for a while.

the most common problem is dirty optos, and you can clean them with q-tips and windex.

#14 9 years ago

It was my 3rd game and my fav. It's a bitch to fix but it's not rocket science.

#15 9 years ago

Thanks for all the input guys. Sounds like I'm in for a bit of work, but that it will be rewarding as well. I haven't been able to secure better pictures which is a bit of a red flag, but I'll going down to inspect the machine next weekend.

In the meantime, I bought the pinball arcade STTNG pro table so I could learn the ruleset and better assess if everything is working correctly. It also gives access to the operators menu, which has shown me that running the diagnostics is much like with my current Stern.

How expensive are the boardsets for these machines? If I should find some battery acid damage or a repaired board, should I walk away or just reduce the offer?

#16 9 years ago

If the MPU board has battery damage and is faulty you could message Johnwartjr on Pinside and ask about having it repaired. He does oodles of board work. Otherwise you can get a bare MPU board here: https://ksarcade.net/rottendog-mpu-for-wpc-89-base-unit-mpu089-replaces-wpc-a-12742.html

If you get a bare board, also order the ASIC chip puller along with it and just transfer the chips from the old board onto the new one. Definitely don't try pulling the ASIC chip without the proper pulling tool though. If you damage the square ASIC chip it'll cost you about $60 for a new one.

Cheers,
Greg

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from kesselrig:

How expensive are the boardsets for these machines? If I should find some battery acid damage or a repaired board, should I walk away or just reduce the offer?

The MPU is typically the only thing that gets damage on these from a leaking battery. As Greg pointed out, they can be replaced for a couple hundred bucks assuming you salvage the working chips from the bad one.

Optos can be a huge problem on this machine because there are a lot of them and because the game tends to lose its mind when one isn't working correctly. They can be dirty as pezpunk mentioned but they can also fail and troubleshooting which one has failed on STTNG can be challenging. The GLM opto boards can help and are a worthy investment if it doesn't already have one: https://ksarcade.net/new-replacement-16-opto-switch-board-osb-16.html

The trough boards can save you some hassle as well:
https://ksarcade.net/ball-trough-opto-transmitter-for-wpc-a-16927-dcs-tt.html

Don't underestimate the maintenance on this title. I've rotated about a dozen different WPC titles through our arcade at the PinCrossing and STTNG is the only one in my collection I haven't included.

-Jay

#18 9 years ago

In the time I have had my STTNG, I wouldn't say it breaks down any more frequently than other machines of that era. However it is one of the most feature packed games of that era which means there are lots of moving parts and lots of things to potentially go wrong. The optos and aux board tieback seems to give some people trouble.

A truly fun, challenging game! The variety of shots and hungry outlanes will make you a better player... or totally frustrate you!

#19 9 years ago

I've had mine for 13 years. As others have said, it really is no more trouble than other pins of that era which means not much trouble at all! It has a lot of gadgets but those gadgets are pretty straight forward to service and were built tough for operation in the arcades. In the home environment, rarely will you have any troubles with it. My T2, Dracula and Getaway brake down more than STTNG.

Cool to see you are in Canberra. My daughter and son-in-law live in Canberra. I hope to come visit them someday but it is a long and expensive trip from St. Louis.

#20 9 years ago

The only thing I can add is its heavy as hell lol

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from Capper96:

The only thing I can add is its heavy as hell lol

Haha yes it is!

#22 9 years ago
Quoted from Capper96:

The only thing I can add is its heavy as hell lol

Very true! Must be one of the heaviest out there! It is certainly my heaviest game.

#23 9 years ago

If you want and have time to learn, buy it. If not, stay with Newer games.

#24 9 years ago

The subway and cannon system is the weak point on the game. If any one point on the subway fails then the game loses track of the balls or starts wrong modes and won't play right. None of the failures are hard to diagnose or fix but there are alot of them so many chances for the game to not play right

4 optos plus coil, bracket/coil stops and transistor for upper left subway exit
2 optos plus coil, bracket/coil stops and transistor for each of the subway cannon exits
opto, plus coil, plus transistor, plus wiring harness for each cannon wear from turning, plus the plungers like to wear into the coil bracket and stick in the fired position, and two switches under the pf for the cannon positions
optos x2, coils x2, plus transistors plus super weak diverter mech inside the subway
drop target entrance to subway and/or shooter lane coil not strong enough to get into subway entrance
tie back wire
Ribbon cable to extra transistor driver board in head if half off will lock on and melt diverter coils

1 week later
#25 8 years ago

Thanks to all for the input. Unfortunately, the machine sold before I got a chance to inspect it. Based on the feedback I've decided that I'll keep looking and go for it when I find one in nice condition. Thanks again.

#26 8 years ago

Not surprising that it sold. No one has mentioned that another positive of this game is that they move quickly. If you buy one and get tired of it or it doesn't interest you you can easily get your investment back as long as you have not sunk a lot in it after you buy it. Always nearly a top 10 or a top 10 and very desirable to own.

#27 8 years ago
Quoted from jrobinso99:

The MPU is typically the only thing that gets damage on these from a leaking battery. As Greg pointed out, they can be replaced for a couple hundred bucks assuming you salvage the working chips from the bad one.

Not for STTNG, the driver 8 board is usually a mess from the tie back voltage being broken at one point or people hacking this board.

STTNG, IMO, is the most problematic and difficult WPC to deal with. Despite some people's good luck with issues, I don't think there is another that is possibly more naggy. There are threads and threads of people that have sold this machine just because they were sick of dealing with the issues.

#28 8 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

STTNG, IMO, is the most problematic and difficult WPC to deal with. Despite some people's good luck with issues, I don't think there is another that is possibly more naggy. There are threads and threads of people that have sold this machine just because they were sick of dealing with the issues.

I agree they can be problematic (due to the sheer number of parts) and confusing to people to troubleshoot (staging of ball/optos in the subway and cannons) but the point I was trying make is once they are dialed in, they are no more problematic than any other machine. This is my experience and your mileage may vary...

#29 8 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

I agree they can be problematic (due to the sheer number of parts) and confusing to people to troubleshoot (staging of ball/optos in the subway and cannons) but the point I was trying make is once they are dialed in, they are no more problematic than any other machine. This is my experience and your mileage may vary...

Well, i do think they are slightly more high maintenance than most pins just because of the complexity. But problems like hacked up boards or battery damage, while common, are curable / preventable.

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