(Topic ID: 65653)

STTNG Service/Menu Buttons Issue

By wizzardz

10 years ago


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#1 10 years ago

I recently moved my STTNG (not sure if related) and decided to run thru the switch test to remove the Borg switch errors (error dot because I never seem to get the ship loaded).

When I open the coin door, i get the normal door open/power message. However, of the four buttons, only two seem to be working correctly. The left (back/exit) and volume up button (3rd from left) work all the time. The volume down button (2nd from left) doesn't do anything. When I first open the door, sometimes the right/enter button will act like volume down...otherwise it does nothing.

Any ideas?

#2 10 years ago

This just happened to my TAFG today. First check your wiring to the buttons. I had a wire come loose which caused two not to work.

#3 10 years ago

My bad cats the switches are shot. So I just used alligator clips and hotwired it lol. Tapping each time to advance. I bet its a loose wire like Skyemont mentioned.

#4 10 years ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

This just happened to my TAFG today. First check your wiring to the buttons. I had a wire come loose which caused two not to work.

I pulled the bracket and looked over the wiring. All the wires looked attached and moving them around didn't show any as disconnected. I'll look at them again to see if any are almost disconnected.

#5 10 years ago

Is there any battery corrosion on the CPU board?

I swapped out a CPU board on my STTNG just a few nights ago with battery leakage on the board and it was causing some very erratic behavior in the menus.

Cheers,
Greg

#6 10 years ago

It has a remote battery and no corrosion.

Was playing with it some between games. I'm not sure its the switches as I've (without cutting) shorted the (exposed) wires with the same results. One thing it did this time that it had done once before - as soon as I open the door, it went into a high score reset countdown. Fortunately it didn't take out my GC score. I'd think ground if all of them went out or were acting funny...but its just vol - and Enter.

In the meantime, is there a way to manually reduce the volume? Since the Vol + works but Vol - doesn't, I managed to increase the volume by accidentally hitting +.

4 months later
#7 10 years ago

Any resolution to this? My STTNG has started doing the same. None of the buttons work. I tested voltage at the switch and have +/- 6v, but on WH2O (same year from Williams) I have +/- 12v. Not sure what voltage should be, but (knock on wood) no problems with WH2O.

#8 10 years ago

Check for continuity through the connectors.I found a bad connector on FH at the coin door board.

#9 10 years ago

I don't have any problems with the buttons on my sttng, but if you are having trouble loading the borgship, check the top diverter. Mine was stuck, the grease turned to glue. Completely remove, clean, and grease the whole setup.

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from Blitz7734:

Any resolution to this? My STTNG has started doing the same. None of the buttons work.

Check for battery damage on CPU first.

LTG : )™

#11 10 years ago

No corrosion LTG.

Just to update the post. While it doesn't affect play except for bong sound while playing, it would reset scores if I open the coin door while its happening. I disconnected the coin door from the board. Interestingly it still happens. So now I need to track the issue upstream from there.

#12 10 years ago

The swithches go bad - I had the same problem. Order a new switch bank and installed and they work great. Nice and smooth!

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from loanguy7171973:

The swithches go bad

And be sure the lugs on the back of them aren't shorting to metal.

LTG : )™

2 years later
#14 8 years ago

Reviving an old thread.

I'm having the same problems with my STTNG. Originally I couldn't get into the diagnostic mode to check a credit dot.

No acid damage, replaced the switch bank twice, and still have the same problem. Changing the switch banks only moved the problem to different buttons. And the problem moves around too. Sometimes I can get into diagnostic mode and scroll the menus, and then things go crazy as if I was holding the up or down buttons. Then I can no longer get back into diagnostic mode.

Game plays fine otherwise.

#15 8 years ago

You can jump the ground wire under the diagnostic switches to game ground. If they now work your problem is on the ground side going back to the CPU. If not then make sure you have 12 volts on the positive side of the switch. Actually I would do this first.
I recently found a broken wire on a coin switch which caused this problem

#16 8 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

And be sure the lugs on the back of them aren't shorting to metal.
LTG : )™

Check the diagnostic switches to make sure the metal bracket holding them isn't bent and shorting the switch(es) lugs against the bracket.

#17 8 years ago

Grounding the appropriate pin shown in the table at this link is equivalent to pushing the button.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Direct_Switch_Problems

One end of a stripped wire on the head ground braid.
Touch the other end to the appropriate MPU pin.
Don't worry...you can break anything by simply grounding these pins.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#18 8 years ago

I've run all the tests and everything checks out, except the 'enter' switch is not working.

So I replace the 'enter' switch. It works fine for two or three selections, and then starts scrolling through the menus like you're holding the switch, even though you're not. Shortly after that, the 'enter' switch no longer works. Back to square one.

It doesn't affect gameplay, and it wouldn't bother me so much except I can't go into diagnostics and I cannot eject the balls in order to lift the playfield. That and it resets the high scores.

#19 8 years ago

Played a few games last night. Everything seems to work, but ball lock is random and comes at any time. What's more, once lock is lit Mr. Data keeps prompting you, which doesn't happen during normal game play. I think STTNG is possessed.

Can I disconnect J205 without any other detriment to the game except for diagnostics (which doesn't currently work anyway) and volume control?

3 years later
#21 4 years ago

Anyone had the opposite of this where machine thinks button is pushed when it isn’t; even after disconnecting buttons it is still cycling through menu (Simpsons 1990)

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from icanswim70:

Anyone had the opposite of this where machine thinks button is pushed when it isn’t; even after disconnecting buttons it is still cycling through menu (Simpsons 1990)

Anything shorting on the main board causing this. Could be battery damage, solder bits, metal parts behind the board, crappy repairs on back side of board shorting to ground ?

LTG : )

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Anything shorting on the main board causing this. Could be battery damage, solder bits, metal parts behind the board, crappy repairs on back side of board shorting to ground ?
LTG : )

Thanks for the response LTG. I have done everything I could possibly think of; Tracing the entire wire, checking connectors, fuses and pins, confirmed there was no board damage (Seepage, burn marks, ETC) And now have confirmed all capacitors are good. Do you or anyone know what connector service button uses to talk to board?

- Nik

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from icanswim70:

anyone know what connector service button uses to talk to board?

CN14

#25 4 years ago

Thanks zaza!

1 year later
#26 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Check for battery damage on CPU first.
LTG : )™

Thanks, LTG - my "enter" key suddenly became stuck on, and just about everything is acting unpredictably. I just bought this STTNG knowing it was inop but only just now looked closely at the CPU, and sure enough, it's a mess. At glance it looked fine. I was so excited to buy it, but I should have looked closer and asked for a better price. Ah well. It's nice to at least have the mystery solved!

All right soldering iron, where you at?

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#27 3 years ago
Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

Ah well. It's nice to at least have the mystery solved!

Jumper on battery holder is a nice touch.

You have battery damage down into the first row of resistors. A lot of stuff to remove. Clean/repair, solder back on.

I don't know your skill level. So a new CPU might be a consideration.

LTG : )

#28 3 years ago

Yeah, a bunch of Scotch-taped jumpers on the solder side as well.

I'm actually pretty good at this kind of work, but I probably don't have many of these components on hand. The waiting is the hardest part, someone once said.

Looks like there was a previous leak, it was repaired, and now it has leaked again. I'm going to clean this up and mount a lithium 2032 socket.

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#29 3 years ago

You have corrosion on the back side of the board as well
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

1 week later
#30 3 years ago

Ok, here are the after pics... only slightly less ugly, but I think it's ready for action. Anyone see any concerns?

My service buttons all work correctly again. I only fired it up for a minute or two last night, but the switch edge test appeared to be in better shape. Was hoping the launchers would find their marks now, but no dice. I have a ways to go on this game!

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#31 3 years ago
Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

Anyone see any concerns?

I applaud your efforts at attempting to salvage this board, but it looks like you still have active corrosion on the board; the black areas in you picture is alkaline corrosion eating away at the copper under you solder mask, this is like a cancer that will continue to damage the board and spread.

I also have some concerns about the replacement parts you chose to install on your board for L1 and C32 ... you have a component labeled 1000J in your C32 position, this is supposed to be a 1000pf capacitor but based on its physical size I'm going to guess its not, for comparison both C32 and C33 are the same part. I'm also not sure what the specs are for your your L1 replacement but this part should be a ferrite core inductor for high inductance and low DC resistance, since your +5VDC for the entire board flows through this part its very important to get this one right. This inductor is essentially nothing more than a copper wire wound around a core.

Below is a link to a fully verified parts list for suitable replacement parts for nearly all components on the WPC89 CPU board:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C4znEqZd4K4eywhi__qDwI-3AsX6Y5qdw9Pzb0p178A/edit#gid=1430569459

This is what they look like on the board...the L1 I use is slightly larger than the original as its speced to provide a 4A continuous load instead of 3A.
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#32 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I also have some concerns about the replacement parts you chose to install on your board for L1 and C32 ...
[quoted image]

Hey Pin Guy - thanks for taking the time to evaluate.

I also found the parts I used strange looking compared to what they replace, but unless I'm missing something, they are of the correct (or better) specification:

L1: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XMCKMY6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s01

C32: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/23PS210

I have used those 1000pfs in a couple other places, including a Space Shuttle MPU, (machine is fully operational at the moment), and have had no signs of trouble. Does the dielectric make a difference??

Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I applaud your efforts at attempting to salvage this board, but it looks like you still have active corrosion on the board; the black areas in you picture is alkaline corrosion eating away at the copper under you solder mask, this is like a cancer that will continue to damage the board and spread.

Interesting - makes total sense. I was of the mind (or maybe just hoping ) that now that I've cleaned up the excess, further damage would cease. Also, most of it is situated on ground mesh, that isn't necessarily relied on by a specific connection. But I'll pull it out and give that corrosion more attention.

Thanks again for chiming in.

Paul

#33 3 years ago
Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

I have used those 1000pfs in a couple other places, including a Space Shuttle MPU, (machine is fully operational at the moment), and have had no signs of trouble. Does the dielectric make a difference??

The main difference is that MLCC capacitors are UL listed for use in commercial devices, are flameproof, exhibits no change in capacitance with respect to voltage, and have a minimal change in capacitance with reference to ambient temperature. The capacitors you are using will likely work fine in in this application most of the time.

Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

I also found the parts I used strange looking compared to what they replace, but unless I'm missing something, they are of the correct (or better) specification:

L1: amazon.com link »

The specs for the inductor seem woefully inadequate, I don't believe the MPU will boot at all with this part installed.

The power specification for this inductor is listed as .5W and as I mentioned previously, the original part is speced to handle 3A of continuous current; at the operating voltage of 5V this equates to the original part being able to handle a continuous load of 15 Watts (Watts = Voltage x Current). To calculate the current capacity of the inductor you installed you would have to use this formula (Amps = Watts/Voltage) this would mean the inductor you have installed is rated for a sustained current of only 0.1 Amps.

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

The main difference is that MLCC capacitors are UL listed for use in commercial devices, are flameproof, exhibits no change in capacitance with respect to voltage, and have a minimal change in capacitance with reference to ambient temperature. The capacitors you are using will likely work fine in in this application most of the time.

The specs for the inductor seem woefully inadequate, I don't believe the MPU will boot at all with this part installed.
The power specification for this inductor is listed as .5W and as I mentioned previously, the original part is speced to handle 3A of continuous current; at the operating voltage of 5V this equates to the original part being able to handle a continuous load of 15 Watts (Watts = Voltage x Current). To calculate the current capacity of the inductor you installed you would have to use this formula (Amps = Watts/Voltage) this would mean the inductor you have installed is rated for a sustained current of only 0.1 Amps.

Interesting -- I wasn't looking to save a few pennies -- I was going for tolerances that met or exceeded what was called for in the manual. The spec shown on Amazon for the inductor reads "Maximum DC Current:7.96A". This seemed more than safe compared to 3A called for. I couldn't find a wattage rating for the original to compare it to.

The capacitor I used has a better tolerance than the KEMET you suggest, (5% v 10%), but I do see that the max temp rating is way less, (+85C v 150C).

#35 3 years ago

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the specifications on this; I would be interested in knowing if the CPU will boot with that inductor installed.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

The capacitor I used has a better tolerance than the KEMET you suggest, (5% v 10%), but I do see that the max temp rating is way less, (+85C v 150C).

Yes it's a high temp device but realistically 85C is a sufficient max operating voltage for this application, I put he initial parts list together a long time ago and tried to have as few different manufactures as possible, with the prime goal being to not have any parts with China as the country of origin.

#37 3 years ago

<disclaimer>

I am NOT an electronics expert. I do NOT have a degree in electrical engineering.

</disclaimer>

I think you want a power inductor. I generally only buy components where I can find a matching datasheet that provides specifications and ratings. If you trust the merchant's information rather than the manufacturer's information you might get into trouble.

When browsing a favorite merchant of mine I see they have these kinds of inductors. When I open up the datasheet I see an interestingly similar number but it's not the maximum current rating. The maximum current rating is much lower in the datasheet for this kind of inductor. When I look at the power inductor I see much higher current ratings. Also notice the gauge of the lead for the inductor. The kind in the cut/tape strips has small leads much like a 0.25W resistor. The power inductor has a much larger lead much like a 5W power resistor.

The inductor you installed might work but unless you have the datasheet and the part specification you can't be sure.

datasheet.jpgdatasheet.jpg
#38 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the specifications on this; I would be interested in knowing if the CPU will boot with that inductor installed.

Yep, it does boot and seems to go through attract mode just fine, but I'll probably stick your chart for parts going forward!

#39 3 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

...with the prime goal being to not have any parts with China as the country of origin.

I am definitely on board with this.

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

<disclaimer>
I am NOT an electronics expert. I do NOT have a degree in electrical engineering.
</disclaimer>
I think you want a power inductor. I generally only buy components where I can find a matching datasheet that provides specifications and ratings. If you trust the merchant's information rather than the manufacturer's information you might get into trouble.
When browsing a favorite merchant of mine I see they have these kinds of inductors. When I open up the datasheet I see an interestingly similar number but it's not the maximum current rating. The maximum current rating is much lower in the datasheet for this kind of inductor. When I look at the power inductor I see much higher current ratings. Also notice the gauge of the lead for the inductor. The kind in the cut/tape strips has small leads much like a 0.25W resistor. The power inductor has a much larger lead much like a 5W power resistor.
The inductor you installed might work but unless you have the datasheet and the part specification you can't be sure.
[quoted image]

Those specs do look suspiciously similar to the part I have here. But I don't see any common part numbers.

This label inspires great confidence though

IMG_1329 (resized).jpgIMG_1329 (resized).jpg
#41 3 years ago
Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

Those specs do look suspiciously similar to the part I have here. But I don't see any common part numbers.

<disclaimer>

I have no proof of the following.

</disclaimer>

It might be a case where one factory produces the actual part and different manufacturers or companies buy the same part and re-brand it with their own marketing. When they do so they use their own part numbers. I believe a company like Harbor Freight Tools does something similar to this.

My point is that you should consult the datasheet for a part to be sure that it will work. Of course ... that also assumes that the merchant sold you something that is actually the part or the part is an original and not a counterfeit.

Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

Yep, it does boot and seems to go through attract mode just fine, but I'll probably stick your chart for parts going forward!

<disclaimer>

The following is a contrived example but is opposite (over-rated) to exaggerate a point.

</disclaimer>

If you put a 10A fuse into a what is specified as a 5A fuse it will work. Until it fails. When it fails it may cause problems elsewhere in the system that a properly rated part would not.

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from AlonzoMoselyFBI:

Those specs do look suspiciously similar to the part I have here. But I don't see any common part numbers.
This label inspires great confidence though
[quoted image]

Hint....if there is Chinese symbols on the packing material = made in China and/or "repurposed/rebranded" from China.

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