(Topic ID: 148278)

ST:TNG - Resetting during Testing, where to start?


By GoDFaDDa

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 42 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by GoDFaDDa
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

#1 5 years ago

I've invested a lot of $$ in repairs and replacements for my lemon ST:TNG machine (if txpinball.com didn't go out of business while the machine was being shipped to me, I would tell you to avoid them like the plague).

Since the last time the machine was (very carefully) moved, it resets during boot-up testing. I turn the machine on, the lights come up, the display says "testing", and then it resets the machine. I'm used to relying on the test results to tell me where the problems are. None of the mechanicals are moving when it resets - it's just the lights, the display, then bam, reset.

A visual inspection doesn't show any obvious problems. Likely a voltage drop somewhere, but I'm not sure how to isolate the problem.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

#2 5 years ago

Follow this step-by-step and you'll figure it out:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets

Ask for help as you go, lots of folks here like to help in situations like this.

Marc

#3 5 years ago

or try a board from KHAN (not sure if I spelled that correctly)...for the possible quick fix

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from GoDFaDDa:

Any suggestions?

Have you replaced any boards?

#5 5 years ago

I battled mine for years and finally got rid of the connector between the cpu and driver board. Simply soldet the wires together and get rid of that connector.

#6 5 years ago

Usually a reset right after turning on the machine is an indicator if a bad thermistor. BUT don't take it as gospel. Follow the link the 2nd poster put up, and it WILL solve the problem.

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from cppinball:

I battled mine for years and finally got rid of the connector between the cpu and driver board. Simply soldet the wires together and get rid of that connector.

Wow, this is a quite brute approach and I do not think this is an appropriate solution (except you want to find your pin in the "worst repair hack" thread one day).
It also may lower the value of the pin if you want to sell it one day (I would not want to have a board with soldered connections and it normally tells you that the repair was not done by a professional and you are asking yourself what else has been done to the boards).

I can only repeat the advice from the others.
Follow the steps from the document and you will normally be able to fix the issue.
I had this once with the Black Rose and it was one of the capacitors.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Usually a reset right after turning on the machine is an indicator if a bad thermistor. BUT don't take it as gospel. Follow the link the 2nd poster put up, and it WILL solve the problem.

I wasted time replacing mine. They just don't go bad even though everyone says replace them for resets.

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

I wasted time replacing mine. They just don't go bad even though everyone says replace them for resets.

Mine was actually baked brown and brittle, it broke in 2 when I removed it. (So it had to be replaced.) It did not solve my immediate reset either, and am currently working through the pinwiki guide.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from flugs:

Wow, this is a quite brute approach and I do not think this is an appropriate solution (except you want to find your pin in the "worst repair hack" thread one day).
It also may lower the value of the pin if you want to sell it one day (I would not want to have a board with soldered connections and it normally tells you that the repair was not done by a professional and you are asking yourself what else has been done to the boards).

Flugs...you've misunderstood. This poster was simply removing the Z-Connector by cutting it out, and joining the wires, which is a completely acceptable action. The Z-Connector is only there to ease manufacture anyway.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

I wasted time replacing mine.

Replacing your thermister wasn't really a waste of time. It allowed you to rule it out as a cause of the resets.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#12 5 years ago

I know but it was just after the fact when I posted my progress I kept hearing everyone telling me don't bother. Unless it's visibly broken, they haven't had a high percentage of failures that would be related to resets. I could be wrong though, just my 2 cents.

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Flugs...you've misunderstood. This poster was simply removing the Z-Connector by cutting it out, and joining the wires, which is a completely acceptable action. The Z-Connector is only there to ease manufacture anyway.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Ok, thanks for the clarification.
Indeed I was thinking about the ribbon cable between the CPU and the driver board.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Usually a reset right after turning on the machine is an indicator if a bad thermistor. BUT don't take it as gospel. Follow the link the 2nd poster put up, and it WILL solve the problem.

That device doesn't solve the problem; but I know what you meant though. It really just bypasses the issue.

Resets occur because of a low +5VDC on the CPU. The +5VDC is generated on the power driver board. So anything that is part of or related to the +5VDC can cause the game to reset. I would say that if everything has been checked and addressed you shouldn't have any issues with the original design set-up. The only part that I can think of that can cause resets, even if replaced with new, is the voltage regulator. Iv'e switched to EZSBC regulators in favor of the standard LM323K.

The items most common to cause resets can be distilled down to these items:

Low power at the wall receptacle
Faulty thermistor
Failing BR2
Failing C5
Bad plated through holes between BR2 and C5
Failing C4
Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J101
Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J102
Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J114
Tarnished pins J114 to CPU Z-connector on some games
Bad voltage regulator

-2
#15 5 years ago
Quoted from GoDFaDDa:

Any suggestions?

Buy a new rottendog board and be done with it...

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Buy a new rottendog board and be done with it...

Except the problem might not be on the board. Better to troubleshoot and know for sure instead of spending 200 or so and potentially not fixing the issue.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Buy a new rottendog board and be done with it...

Nah...fix the OEM board. It's almost always better than any aftermarket board.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#18 5 years ago

I would start with measuring the voltage on the CPU board. What do you have at J210-5 on the CPU board? What do you have at J114-3 of the power driver board? What do you have at TP-2 on the power driver board?

-1
#19 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Nah...fix the OEM board. It's almost always better than any aftermarket board.

You're the expert obviously...but if it is a board issue and the OP spends X amount of hours troubleshooting and fixing the issue(trying to), at the end of the day a couple hundred for a spanking new board with modern tech might be a much better option. You'd be up and running in no time, instead of pulling your hair out for hours...and you'll likely be done with board issues for a very very long time.

#20 5 years ago

Or,,, you spend $ and find out after it was not the problem

#21 5 years ago

Wow...I didn't realize that the price of the RD power/driver board was up to about $300.
An OEM driver board can be fixed and bullet proofed for 1/3 of that, easily. And, the board will last a good, long time after that.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

and bullet proofed for 1/3 of that, easily. And, the board will last a good, long time after that.
-->

That is what I did via Rob Anthony and it's been working for 4 years at least.

#23 5 years ago

For what it's worth, my STTNG was randomly resetting from time to time and the Kahr daughterboard seemed to fix (or mask?) the problem. I installed it about 18 months ago, and haven't had a reset since. I suspect it doesn't fix the underlying issue, but it allows me to play STTNG trouble free. Hope that helps!

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from JimB:

That is what I did via Rob Anthony and it's been working for 4 years at least.

That's what I did via... Chris Hibler

#25 5 years ago

Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J101 (far right on driver board)
Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J102 (far right on driver board)
Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J114 (far left on driver board)
Tarnished pins/cold solder joints J210 (right side on MPU board)

~~~~~~
This I find most often with resets.
So if you reseat these connectors and it goes away, likely need to replace some or all the female wired connectors and resolder or possibly replace the male connector pins if tarnished.

#26 5 years ago

Had similar issues with a BoP here at work. We replaced all charred pins with new ones. (pins and header). Problem gone.
PinballManaic40 is likely on the right track.
BoP was resetting on knocker; not the same as OP. but still good advice.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Sammy31:

or try a board from KHAN (not sure if I spelled that correctly)...for the possible quick fix

They still aren't on pinwiki, but my daughterboards are still out there (www.kahr.us) and they are still $28.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

1 week later
#28 5 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

They still aren't on pinwiki, but my daughterboards are still out there (www.kahr.us) and they are still $28.
-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

Installed mine yesterday. Awesome product. I have been having trouble with my STTNG for just over two years now and it's been vertically unplayable for the last six months. Been playing it solid for two days and no sign of a problem. Thanks.

1 week later
#29 4 years ago

OP, any luck yet with your game?

#30 4 years ago

Check all of your fuse holders, the last time I had a similar reset problem I found one of the fuse holder was loose, tighten up the fuse holder and that problem was fixed and it did not cost anything.

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from greatmorra:

Check all of your fuse holders, the last time I had a similar reset problem I found one of the fuse holder was loose, tighten up the fuse holder and that problem was fixed and it did not cost anything.

If your fuse holders are loose, best bet is to replace them, since it is a sign of metal fatigue.

#32 4 years ago

Clay's method on pinballninja.com (membership required) of diagnosing problems with game resets ultimately caused by a voltage drop between the power driver board and the MPU board is very quick, precise, and methodical.

(He typically gives a reminder that replacing the bridge rectifier and capacitor is not a good first step.)

Before reseating any connectors, he measures 5V on the power driver board (test point TP2) and on the MPU board (positive bottom side of C31). Let's say we get 4.97 V on the driver board and 4.80 on the MPU board.

We already know that we don't have a bridge rectifier problem, as the voltage on the power driver board is respectable. We know that the voltage drop is occurring on the connection between the two boards. So we check out those connections one at a time.

Lift and reseat J114 on the power driver board, and measure both voltages again. TP2 will probably stay the same. Voltage on the MPU board may go up by a couple hundredths of a volt. Let's say we know have 4.97 V and 4.82 V. That means J114 was not perfect, but perhaps not the biggest culprit.

Now, lift and reseat J210. Measure again. If the voltage jumps up to nearly that on the power driver board, we just determined that this connector is the cause and we can fix the problem by replacing the female and male connector/pins.

If we still didn't increase the voltage much, reseat the Z connector and measure again. If this causes the voltage to increase significantly (which 0.1 V would definitely be significant), we will have identified that the Z connector is the problem. At that point, we will have definitely proven that it's problematic. Even though reseating it may temporarily fix the problem, the real solution in this case is removing the Z connector and permanently attaching the wires.

8 months later
#33 4 years ago

I'm back on the boards for the first time in a long time, and I'm happy to see a lot of other help posted after I last saw the thread. I don't have any news to report, as life has been crazy and I haven't had the luxury of time to work on this machine. I'll try to get to it soon and let you know what I find.

I'm also not wholly confident in my ability to fix traces. I'm not sure I have a good enough iron and I'm not sure that my soldering skills are up to par. I could probably fix a cold-solder, but I'd be a bit concerned about causing other damage in the process.

#34 4 years ago

Welcome back!

If you found time to make the measurements I suggested in this post https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-resetting-during-testing-where-to-start#post-2888423 I would be more than happy to assist in identifying the problem, and if it turns out to be a board and you aren't comfortable repairing the faulty board yourself, I offer those services as well.

I have to admit it makes me a little sad thinking of a STTNG pin that isn't working...it's such a great pin!

-2
#35 4 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

They still aren't on pinwiki, but my daughterboards are still out there (www.kahr.us) and they are still $28.

Just do this and be done with it.

#36 4 years ago

As far as I can tell from this post nothing at has been done yet and the problem started after moving the pin. It's possible that there is just a loose connection or solder connection to fix.

#37 4 years ago

If you work through this disciplined process, the problem will be solved.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#38 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

If you work through this disciplined process, the problem will be solved.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets

That's a great process, and I'll go through it all as soon as I can.

What I had time to do today was just a quick check of the ribbon cables in the backbox. I retouched all the ribbon cable connectors in the backbox, and found that the cable to the top-right board, the "8 Driver PC Board" was slightly loose. I made sure all were secure again.

When I started it up, it reset three times. When this happens, the LCD stays on with "testing", but all the lights, etc. turn on, then turn off, etc. After the third reset, it stayed on, and I was actually able to play a bit.

There are very likely still power issues, as the cannons are very sluggish. Also, I installed the LED upgrade kit a couple years ago, and while it always ghosted, it now seems worse than ever.

#39 4 years ago

Is there a z connector in STTNG? May be the issue.

#40 4 years ago

There is, and it could be; the OP will have to make some checks to isolate the issue

2 weeks later
#42 4 years ago

Life has been crazy, but I finally had a few minutes to start messing with this. I had tightened the connections in the backbox, but now I started going through the linked list. I actually got stopped at the very first one!

I tested a number of outlets in my house (Seattle area, built in the early 80s), and I was at 119.6-119.8. However, the outlet that the machiens were plugged into - even with the power strip removed and nothing on the outlet - was at 114!

I moved the power strip to another outlet, and the game was able start without issue.

I still have lots of other troubles - especially with ghosting on the LEDs I installed. The game still seems a little bit underpowered - the photon cannons are a bit slow. However, it's *much* better than it was, and it's not resetting on startup.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 12.50
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 369.95
Boards
PinSound

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside