(Topic ID: 47092)

St:tng owners welcome aboard the uss enterprise

By Pinballgeek

11 years ago


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Topic index (key posts)

7 key posts have been marked in this topic

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #2194 Fix for low 12V voltage and slow cannons. Linked to ColorDMD Install. Posted by mavantix (6 years ago)

Post #2578 Hallmark Romulan Warbird modification Posted by Pin_Guy (5 years ago)

Post #2659 canon gearbox; detail photos of innards Posted by scooter8416 (5 years ago)

Post #4774 Tubing used for ends of flipper return lanes. Posted by Gogojohnnyquack (3 years ago)

Post #8277 Disable Officer's Club from the high scores in attract mode. Posted by ingo333 (1 year ago)

Post #8653 LX-8 ROM Release with link and description. Posted by ingo333 (1 year ago)


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#6032 2 years ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Has anyone run into the opto issue referenced in this service bulletin and done the mod to the eddy boards? I don’t recall seeing this mod on the boards in my game. Looks pretty easy to do and since it was a recommendation right from Williams I’ll probably do it on my boards at some point.

Presumably it implements the change made in later boards (included in machines Road Show and later).

proximity_sensor.jpgproximity_sensor.jpg

I have (currently untested) bare reproduction boards that implement A-18543 (which is compatible with A-16922).

1 week later
#6205 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

Not at all - I (and I'm guessing others??) haven't shopped out a STTNG, so can't offer advice on those specific questions you've ask. But we chime in when we see a question that we can answer

This.

Quoted from Mathazar:

Support isn't real-time around here....as much as we try not to, most of us do have lives outside of reading pinball forums. Might take a few days or more to get answers you're looking for....sometimes never if no one simply has a good response to share.

And this.

I see a lot of impatience for FREE advice. You can exercise your impatience if you pay for it. IMHO: If it's free you have no right to complain.

Quoted from Robotworkshop:

They are high that is why I hope that others will post some sources for replacement cables. I may end up making my own set when I go to replace them.

Here is what I did. I fixed (replaced) the left harness on one side to get the machine to a baseline where it was 100% working.

01_sttng_harness_replaced.jpg01_sttng_harness_replaced.jpg02_sttng_harness_original.jpg02_sttng_harness_original.jpg03_sttng_harness_under_playfield.jpg03_sttng_harness_under_playfield.jpg

I'm pretty sure this is the original harness and it has been previously repaired. I understand that this is common which is why I just rebuilt the whole thing and added extra protection with the use of the tubing. I got the tubing from a home improvement store.

04_sttng_harness_removed.jpg04_sttng_harness_removed.jpg

Then I rebuilt the entire machine. Stripped the playfield, cleared it and cleaned EVERY part of the machine. Except for the cabinet it was completely restored. It is the most hated machine (drain monster). My buddy and I wanted to put a secret camera to record all the profanity uttered from people who played the game. I have since changed the FL-17636 back to FL-11629. I did not like the performance of the FL-17636.

05_sttng_rebuilt_top.jpg05_sttng_rebuilt_top.jpg06_sttng_rebuilt_bottom.jpg06_sttng_rebuilt_bottom.jpg

#6235 2 years ago
Quoted from Lostcause:

I have an issue with both right flippers, on hold/up I can push them down too easily. A fast ball can push it down a bit then it fires back up or it drops halfway ish maybe, the left flipper is good and cannot be push back easily. Holds strong.

I have no proof other than a hunch. It sounds like your right flipper solenoid is FL-17636 and your left flipper solenoid is FL-11629 (or perhaps FL-11630).

The FL-17636 has a strong "power" stroke but very weak "hold" power. I think the power resistance is ~4.5 Ohms and the hold resistance is ~300 Ohms. The FL-11629 has a strong "power" stroke and good "hold" power. I think the power resistance is ~4 Ohms and the hold resistances is ~150 Ohms. This is the reason why I removed my FL-17636 solenoids and replaced them with FL-11629 solenoids.

You can either post images of the flipper solenoids (assuming the flipper solenoid wrapper is correct) or more precisely measure the resistance to be sure of the flipper solenoid that is actually installed.

#6254 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Correction: The regulated 12VDC is derived from the +18V source and is fused thru F115. This voltage powers ONLY the CPU for the switch matrix, the Fliptronics board for a similar function, and the DMD controller board.

Correction: The DMC is powered by +12VU (unregulated from J116/J117/J118) not by +12VR (regulated from J114).

Quoted from Pin_Guy:

You would put a logic probe on the 8 outputs to see if they are producing your column drive pulses.

Is it possible to do a simple static check for continuity to ground? Not sure if that would be a valid test.

Quoted from RellikJM:

Looks ok visually, which is promising.

IMHO: Visual inspection is inadequate when it comes to assessing electronics ... unless you have electron vision. Superman had x-ray vision but not electron vision. I wonder what the world would like look in electron vision.

#6272 2 years ago
Quoted from radium:

Where is the 'right ramp flasher' for solenoid #42? Is it this red dome on the backboard? The wire is hanging loose under my playfield but not sure where it goes.

sttng_solenoid_flasher_location.jpgsttng_solenoid_flasher_location.jpg

Check the wire colors. The wire colors will tell you exactly what you are dealing with.

1 week later
#6343 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

The Slam Tilt and Coin Door Closed switches (that are on the same switch matrix column as those 5 PF switches) go via the coin door interface board, so there is an association but if the issue is there I'm unsure how/why it leaves those 2 switches working but knocks out the 5 PF switches. I'd be interested in hearing what your techs find is causing the issue

Bear in mind that there are two switch column headers on the CPU board. They are J206 and J207. The header at J212 is for the cabinet and also has connections for switch column 1 and 2. There are two separate column 2 wires that leave the CPU board. One at J206 or J207 that goes to the playfield and the other at J212 that goes to the coin door interface in the cabinet. This is why the cabinet switches work but the playfield ones do not. It indicates that there's probably nothing wrong on the CPU board and the problem is in the playfield. Of course ... not having done any further investigation and only with briefly reading the information provided this may not be a correct assessment.

2 weeks later
#6497 2 years ago
Quoted from Brewchap:

What does LED 3 on the driver board used for and how should it be lite? Mine is off and on in no pattern at all.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#LEDs_and_test_points_on_WPC-089_Power.2FDriver_Boards

4 weeks later
#6582 2 years ago
Quoted from bbulkley:

I restored the game several months ago. The flippers got new bats, rubbers, coil sleeves, linkages, and coil stops. That shot was much easier until recently.

Consider checking the DC voltage output and AC voltage ripple coming out of the Fliptronic-II board. If half of the bridge rectifier has failed (half wave rectification) you could conceivably get enough voltage for a somewhat decent power stroke but not enough for a strong power stroke. Expect some AC ripple. The amount will depend on whether your Fliptronic-II board has the 100uF@100V capacitor installed. That was initially installed when the board was released but Williams cut costs and removed this capacitor during the usage life cycle. In all likelihood the board does NOT have one installed.

Quoted from bbulkley:

Should that shot be so hard? Do I need to adjust my angle or maybe replace my flipper coils?

You can also check the resistance of the solenoids to make sure they are within specification. The correct resistance will depend on the flipper solenoid you have installed. It should be either a FL-17636 or FL-11629.

1 month later
#6812 2 years ago
Quoted from BriannaWu:

Is it worth redoing all the pins? Those look like new harnesses. Is it worth all the work?

You will find lots of differing opinions on this kind of topic. Most everything is opinion. Not fact. Even this is an opinion. Do you own research. Ask questions if you're unsure about pros and cons. This advice also applies to board work - such as replacing the headers. If the connector (housing) and wires are burned then that is something that obviously needs replacing. Wholesale "preventative" replacement may not be necessary.

If you're going to do the work yourself make sure you're comfortable with figuring out problems should they arise. Otherwise I would recommend "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Many people do more harm to their machines by doing "preventative" work.

I don't know your experience and skill level. If you attempt to do something beyond your experience level and you make a mistake you will be asking for help or asking for a technician to do a home visit and this can get expensive. I also realize that with learning to fix your own problems you have to start somewhere.

This is my opinion. Not fact. It is based on my experience having to clean up and fix other people's introduced mistakes.

1 week later
#6842 2 years ago
Quoted from Eric_Manuel:

show it for an example of what is typical in the STTNG pinball machines.
Note, the red and black jumps were put in by me (before I decided to replace the board completely)

[quoted image] ("normal jumpers suggested to install")

You could find something similar in any WPC-89 machine. The problems here are not confined to STTNG.

There is no such thing as "normal jumpers suggested to install". The "normal" board has NO JUMPERS. Jumpers are an indication that someone who worked on the board (and probably should not have worked on the board) pulled through holes. It amazes me that it looks like 1/3 - 1/2 (33%-50%) of the through holes were pulled by the technician doing that work.

1 week later
#6916 2 years ago
Quoted from mtadams29:

I am in the United States and my country voltage is 120V. Attached are the 2 9pin connectors coming off the transformer, I wasn't sure which one you meant.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Early_WPC_Transformers_.289_pin_connection.29

The connector doing the primary winding input voltage selection is the one connected to orange/brown/black/white wire bundle. It is difficult to tell due to the image angle but it is possible that you have a low line voltage selection. The following arithmetic should be able to confirm this.

  1. Ratio of nominal 120VAC to 100VAC is 1.2
  2. Nominal (RMS) output from solenoid secondary winding is 70VDC
  3. Applying primary winding ratio difference is 70VDC * 1.2 = 84VDC
  4. Nominal (RMS) output from lamp matrix secondary winding is 18VDC
  5. Applying primary winding ratio difference is 18VDC * 1.2 = 21.6VDC

Seems possible. Use the Pinwiki as a guide to correct primary winding input voltage selection or if you are unsure then post additional images from different angles of the connect. The important one is the "head on" image (like shown in the Pinwiki) so that a proper assessment can be made.

1 month later
#7149 2 years ago

The STTNG manual lists A-16922 as the proximity sensor board. I have seen STTNG machines with A-18543-1 and A-18543-2 instead. Presumably either Williams switched to A-18543-1 during production or some operator installed the A-18543-1 or A-18543-2 to keep the machine running.

Note that there are value differences between the components on A-18543-1 and A-18543-2 and they cannot be directly interchanged.

01_A-16922.jpg01_A-16922.jpg
02_A-18543-1.jpg02_A-18543-1.jpg
03_A-18543-1.jpg03_A-18543-1.jpg

1 week later
#7198 2 years ago
Quoted from oradke:

[quoted image]

What's with the breadboard and the 2W resistors?

#7225 2 years ago
Quoted from Eric_Manuel:

When you install it, be sure to run a wire called the Tie Back Mod from the target into the backbox.

This is strictly not correct. The small (third) VIO-GRN wire attached to one of the lugs of the solenoid on the assembly is factory. The "Tie Back Mod" is described in the PinWiki.

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation#Diode_.22Tie_Back.22_missing_causes_8-Driver_Board_transistor_to_fail

I have a small set of boards that provide an easily reversible solution for those that may not want to modify their original connectors and wiring. See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-test-and-reproduction-pcbs/page/13#post-6637329 for more information.

#7226 2 years ago
Quoted from Nacman:

Sends up first, diverter send it to left farther back popper. Second ball, apparently goes to same location because it then pops out the previously just load first ball. Repeats continuously. I assume the loading logic loads in an order and it is not seeing the first ball loaded properly, so it continually tries over and over again. But as I said all optos work in test mode.

I don't believe this is correct. It has been a long time since I spent any time on this machine. I seem to recall that it loads the balls in the following order:

  1. Left cannon staging
  2. Right cannon staging
  3. Left lock (popper) staging

The default (if no subway diverter engages) is to end up in the left lock (popper). The behavior you describe is either:

  • Failure of the left cannon opto signal
  • Failure of the left cannon diverter to engage
  • Failure of alignment of the left cannon diverter to physically divert the ball

There are probably other causes but those seem to the most obvious things to exclude first.

3 weeks later
#7389 2 years ago
Quoted from Eric_Manuel:

A-16100-2 Driver Board

You are using the wrong board unless someone has changed the configuration on the board. Double check the configuration on the board matches the configuration specified in the parts list and verify it against the schematic.

01_A-16100.jpg01_A-16100.jpg02_A-16100-2.jpg02_A-16100-2.jpg

Quoted from Eric_Manuel:

It's possible the absence of a resistor at location R36 may be the issue.

Consult the schematic that is documented in the manual.

03_schematic.jpg03_schematic.jpg

2 weeks later
#7445 2 years ago
Quoted from mtadams29:

Im now going back and forth with Marcos about returning the cards and they wanted me to verify that I am getting 12V at the plug the optos run on. To quote them directly: "12V is supplied to the opto boards from plug J904 on the fliptronic board(top left board in the head, plug J905)"
So are they asking me to check if i'm getting 12V at plug J904 or J905? Also, doesn't is stand to reason or logic that if my old optos are working, that I am getting the correct voltage?

Support is one of the least considered aspects when purchasing products. Most products probably don't have issues that require support - i.e. IJW=it just works. This is not always true from some manufacturers but those manufacturers typically don't last long or develop bad reputations. When the product requires support this is where manufacturers and merchants often separate themselves.

  • J904 is digital logic power. That is +12VR (regulated +12V and used for digital logic comparison).
  • J905 is switch state input to the Fliptronic board.

The manual often contains the information that is required but most people do not read the manual. Pay close attention to the left flipper cabinet board. Specifically pins 6 and 7. There is a something subtle there.

Edit: Not all manufacturers test all their boards prior to shipping to merchants. Often the merchants has to deal with the issues. Often this is coordinated with the manufacturer. Just because the board is brand new does not necessarily mean the board works when you receive it.

flipper_cabinet_circuit_diagram.jpgflipper_cabinet_circuit_diagram.jpg

Quoted from Eric_Manuel:

Unlike the STERN machines, which the OPTOS are identical (same on both sides), the Williams Opto Sets are different. One is a Transmitter and One is a receiver. Typically, one of them is Blue and the other one is Green. There should be a matching set for each location.
I replaced all (16) sets in my system, with no issues at all. I will mention I replaced them one at a time. And I also keep the RECEIVER Opto on the same side as the old one. Old transmitter replaced with NEW one. Not certain that would be your issue, just a thought.

This is not relevant. The flipper cabinet opto switches are slotted optos that contain the transmitter and receiver together as a unit. They are also direct (grounded) switches and not part of the switch matrix.

1 week later
#7468 2 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I feel like the TDA is probably bad.
that said; I haven't had one go bad in my machine. I used a bunch of TDA based prox sensor on my mirror universe project.

Definitely have to agree with this. No evidence for my opinion other than looking at the schematic. I would doubt that any of the passives are out of specification. Better odds with a guess that the active components are the problem.

A-16922.jpgA-16922.jpg
#7471 2 years ago
Quoted from PinHigh1:

My eddy proximity sensor isn't working. LED on the board stays lit. Potentiometer adjustments don't turn it off. I see there is a guy in AUS selling the board. Just curious though...anyone figured out what is going wrong? Is it the pot going bad? Wondering if I can just repair this. I've ready about changing the R1 resistor...just curious if anyone knows. Otherwise I'll just buy a board. Thx!

Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Aren’t there at least two different boards? That schematic doesn’t look like the ones in my Star Trek game.

User posted a WTB with an image of a board that I assumed is the board that is in the machine.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wanted-eddy-proximity-sensor-board-a-16922

3 weeks later
#7502 2 years ago
Quoted from radium:

then the smart people can help you fix it.

Hey. Some of us dumb people try to help from time to time.

#7519 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

Yep that’s very interesting - looks like columns 3 & 4 aren’t working. These are all optos and they are showing open, when they should be showing closed. It’s like the main opto board isn’t working.

Yep. Well spotted.

Quoted from radium:

Thehipster did you check your fuses? Remove one side of the fuse from the holder and check for continuity.

Thehipster : Check F116 for continuity. Pull one end of the fuse or disconnect J112 to be sure. The 16-opto board is powered by the +12VU circuit.

Quoted from Manny65:

Sorry I can’t think straight atm to tell you the next steps (currently in Emergency at hospital & struggling to focus through the pain).

Get well wishes here too!

#7527 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

Fuse F116 is okay.

Is LED7 on the power board illuminated? If not then BR5 is probably open.

Otherwise ...

Measure for +12VDC at J5-12. You can measure red lead to J5-12 and black lead to J5-13 or black lead to ground braid. If voltage is missing then measure for +12VDC at J116-2 (or J117-2 or J118-2). You can measure red lead to J116-2 and black lead to J116-3 or black lead to ground braid.

The voltage is unregulated and often measures higher than +12VDC (typically up to +14VDC or +15VDC).

There is also an LED on the 16-opto board and that should be illuminated if power is present.

#7529 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

I've never had opto before so am I correct in assuming that the 16 opto is the large board on the upper left when playfield is fully up?

The manual knows all (well ... mostly all).

sttng_lower_playfield_parts_locations.jpgsttng_lower_playfield_parts_locations.jpg

Quoted from Thehipster:

Oh and what is BR5 (is it bridge rectifier?) and what does it do.?

Yes. It's on the power board at the top left (near J112). It is a full wave rectifier than converts the AC from the transformer secondary to DC for use by electrical components or DC motors. Don't touch the board unless there's evidence that indicates you need to go there. Simple things first.

#7536 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

Okay so I couldn't find J5 doh.

Sorry. That's J5 on the 16-opto board.

Quoted from Thehipster:

I was in a rush but I managed to read J116,117 and 118. Pin 1 5v pin 2 0v and pin three 14v on each of those.
Is this correct?

You have the pin numbers backward. They are numbered from the right to left.

  1. KEY
  2. +12VU
  3. GND
  4. +5VR
Quoted from Thehipster:

The main16 opto led is lit when powered on

Weird. If the 16-opto board has power but it's not registering ANY optos in the matrix you definitely have a problem on the 16-opto board. The one point I can see in the schematic that would take out both columns is a problem with U5. I would take the board out and post some well illuminated and in focus images of both sides of the board. It might be something visually obvious (e.g. leaky capacitor causing a break in the trace) but otherwise if it's electrical you will need to make a further assessment as humans do not have electron vision.

#7553 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Measure for +12VDC at J5-12. You can measure red lead to J5-12 and black lead to J5-13 or black lead to ground braid. If voltage is missing then measure for +12VDC at J116-2 (or J117-2 or J118-2). You can measure red lead to J116-2 and black lead to J116-3 or black lead to ground braid.

Quoted from Thehipster:

I was in a rush but I managed to read J116,117 and 118. Pin 1 5v pin 2 0v and pin three 14v on each of those.

Quoted from Thehipster:

The main16 opto led is lit when powered on

Quoted from Thehipster:

LED7 is NOT lit.

Something must have changed since your voltage readings and now. What did you do? An LED that is not illuminated does not necessarily indicate that there is no voltage (potential) present. The LED could be non-functioning. Very low odds of that happening but still not 0. The only way to be sure is to MEASURE. Measure the voltage at TP1. If not present then test BR5.

Quoted from Thehipster:

And now this.....

Those looks like ground shorts on rows. You did something to the machine while the power was on. You will need to elaborate on what happened. Things like this don't normally happen spontaneously.

#7561 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

No reading at TP1. Do I have to take the board out to test BR5 or is there a test point?
I just tested F116 again and it has failed. Swapped fuse. Power back. Now F116 blows each time I power up. I am using 3A sb fuses.

Disconnect J116/J117/J118. Power on the machine. If F116 blows you have a shorted BR5. If it does not blow you have a short on the playfield somewhere or there is a shorted drive transistor drawing too much current through the circuit causing the fuse to blow. Isolate the board and make an assessment after that. This follows the electrical central or peripheral part of the diagnostic flow chart.

Quoted from Thehipster:

I don't think I did much when it was on. I checked the ball trough opto sensors.
To be honest the led on the opto was on then went out. Could I have shorted the opto against the metal of the lock bar mechanism?

You could have done something without realizing it. It could have spontaneously failed (possibly age related failure). Without history the cause will probably remain unknown. Knowing potential causes helps prevent it from happening again but it doesn't affect how you repair the current failure. Often people don't mention what they did (typically due to embarrassment). I'm not saying that's what you did but there are plenty of examples of failure to mention self-inflicted problems on this forum.

#7564 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

I disconnected the j116 thru 8 and the fuse did not blow.

Quoted from Thehipster:

Fuse ok with connectors off the board.

Reconnect each of J116/J117/J118 one at a time until the fuse blows. You can insert them so that only one is connected at any one time or you can sequentially insert them until the fuse blows. It doesn't matter. The last one inserted will point to where the potential problem is. There are three connectors and one goes to the cabinet, another to the DMC and the other to the playfield. The highest odds by a LONG shot is the playfield.

If it is the playfield then you will need to isolate each assembly that draws from the +12VU to find the assembly that is causing the problem. Unplug them all and go one by one. There is no fast way to find this (such as a binary search) because there is no order to the wiring (other than proximity and sequence). A potential (but not reliable) quick and dirty is to measure for continuity between the power pin (+12VU) and the ground (GND) pin on the assembly that requires the power.

This is work that you have to do. No amount of Pinside kibitzing is likely to help you. If I am wrong someone please kibitz so I can learn something.

#7568 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

So tested all connectors and F116 is still intact.
Switch edges test is back to showing the missing opto rows. Would this indicate an opto problem or a short somewhere?

Things keep changing and with the delay of days and posts between each response I get confused quickly. Are you saying that the missing opto columns (all optos not showing up in switch tests) is back? Or are you saying that the entire row short (all rows in switch tests are showing closed) is back? These are two different problems but may be a manifestation of a problem from the 16-opto board. Or they could be coming from two completely different causes anywhere in the machine.

Quoted from Manny65:

You can sometimes have a fuse blow for no apparent reason but vast majority is caused by a short, whether this be be due to a failed component or a shorted wire.

If things change without an obvious cause it is sometimes "positional" in that it may be related to the playfield position where an exposed wire is bent or contacting a grounded part of the cabinet. I have no proof/evidence for this because this is not stated anywhere but it is something that should be considered at the back of the mind because this kind of detail is often left out when people ask for help.

#7570 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

We are back to this switch test.

Ok. So the same thing applies (as previously recommended).

  • Check the LED on the 16-opto board is illuminated.
  • Test for +12VU at the 16-opto board.
  • If not present then go further up the chain as previously recommended.
Quoted from DumbAss:

Measure for +12VDC at J5-12. You can measure red lead to J5-12 and black lead to J5-13 or black lead to ground braid. If voltage is missing then measure for +12VDC at J116-2 (or J117-2 or J118-2). You can measure red lead to J116-2 and black lead to J116-3 or black lead to ground braid.
The voltage is unregulated and often measures higher than +12VDC (typically up to +14VDC or +15VDC).
There is also an LED on the 16-opto board and that should be illuminated if power is present.

Quoted from DumbAss:

If the 16-opto board has power but it's not registering ANY optos in the matrix you definitely have a problem on the 16-opto board. The one point I can see in the schematic that would take out both columns is a problem with U5. I would take the board out and post some well illuminated and in focus images of both sides of the board. It might be something visually obvious (e.g. leaky capacitor causing a break in the trace) but otherwise if it's electrical you will need to make a further assessment as humans do not have electron vision.

#7579 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

The trough thinks that there are only 5 balls there because led1 is showing open although a ball is in the switch at that position. I have re-checked the leds on the trough opto board using a smart phone and I think led1 is not working.

So the previous image of the trough state you posted is now different? You posted this image with all the balls loaded. This is correct (as far as the ball trough optos are concerned). The jam switch (67) is open (shows as closed because it is an opto).

sttng_ball_trough_loaded.jpgsttng_ball_trough_loaded.jpg

What is the state now? If you cannot accurately describe the state then you cannot expect people to be able to help you and I would advise just posting images instead of words. We want to help but if you cannot provide accurate and consistent information we will just be chasing our (and your) tails. Please don't take that personally but rather as advice on how to better get advice.

I don't know what LED1 is and even if I did it would depend on the board that you are using. For an opto pair to be recognized by the software as a valid switch the IR LED must be transmitting, the phototransistor must be detecting, the comparator circuit must be operating and the switch matrix wires must be connected and continuous with the CPU board. Any failure in that path will cause a problem. All but continuity with the CPU board are directly related to the ball trough receiver board. OEM boards have NO diagnostics on them (other than a possible power LED). That means you will need to do the diagnostics.

Quoted from Thehipster:

The game does not stage 3 balls as it it should.

If the ball trough state cannot be accurately determined by the software AND the ball subway state cannot be accurately determined by the software or the diverter solenoids in the subway do not work then it will NOT correctly stage the balls and get confused very quickly. The software in this game appears to not be very tolerant of any ball switch state or travel inaccuracy. This is both good (you cannot start a game without the correct staging) and bad (the game does not work properly and therefore makes $0).

#7589 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

the IR LED (aka opto emitter) isn't working.

<opinion>

Nomenclature or terminology opinion.

I would avoid using the term "emitter" for the IR LED. The reason is that it can be confusing when referring to the phototransistor leads. Those leads are collector (C) and emitter (E).

For the IR LED I try to use the term "transmitter" and for the phototransistor I use the term "receiver" - in line with Tx and Rx. I do this to avoid the aforementioned confusion with emitter. When trying to help people with the wiring of their receiver board you will have to refer to the emitter and that can be easily confused with the transmitter board where there is only the anode (A) and cathode (K).

The manuals refer to them as LED PCB and Photo Transistor PCB.

</opinion>

Back to the regularly scheduled exploration of the galaxy in the name of the United Federation of Planets.

#7629 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

So ALL switches are working now.

Including the switches in column 3 and 4? You specify ALL switches. This means that column 3 and 4 all register as closed (they are optos so they are physically "open"). Is this true? I get confused by your statements as they seem to constantly shift back and forth.

Quoted from Thehipster:

Just no staging happening. Very frustrating. I will check the 16 opto board voltages and reseat the connectors at the weekend.
When switched on the cannon spin for a while and the vuks fire so the game is trying to locate the balls.

Please see above. Ignore whatever the game is doing when powered on. Get the switches to read correctly (ideally with NO balls in the machine). Once you have this known good starting point you should proceed from there. If you try to do everything at once you will just confuse EVERYBODY trying to help you.

Quoted from Manny65:

You will get there but you just need to be quite methodical when troubleshooting

Quoted from radium:

Also still seems we are throwing darts here, need a more systematic approach since you have many things going on.

Agreed. A lot of people want to solve all their problems at once. It's true that when troubleshooting you should ideally look for one cause that explains all the symptoms but this should not be an assumption. This is a general principle for diagnosis in the field of neurology. Any one lesion in the nervous system causing all the symptoms and signs is ideal but not always the lone cause. Sometimes one issue masks another and the secondary issue is only revealed once the primary issue is resolved. If one potential cause can adequately explain everything that is seen then that's great but it is not always the case.

Quoted from Thehipster:

Should all of the mini opto leds be on when power is on?

All the transmitters (green boards) of the opto pair are always transmitting when power is applied. They are not pulsed or switched. They are always transmitting.

#7631 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

When I have posted these will you be able to take me to the next step of testing please.

I work on information posted. When someone posts enough information for me to help (and nobody else has jumped in) then I will try to help. I will also post if I think someone is going down an incorrect path or a path that will not provide a solution. The more information provided the better the odds I will take some time to help. Less information means I have to solicit the information and that means I have to spend more time. Time I often either don't have or don't want to spend. I also avoid requests for help where a simple search of this forum will reveal the answer (i.e. it's something that has been posted many times before).

Quoted from Thehipster:

Just for reference the power is going to the 16 opto board and is 12 vdc tested on J5 - 12.

If the power is reaching the board then it may be distribution on the board. With a simple ordered problem a binary search produces a result in the least amount of time but the power rail is not ordered so you will have to be systematic - in measuring (what and where) as well as reporting (posting results here).

Quoted from Thehipster:

(Just for reference if you mean that the red led should be on on the small optos they are not.)

What "red led" on what "small optos" are you referring to? If you mention something like this you can reduce turnaround time between posts by simply posting an image with what you are referring to. Same thing as previously mentioned ... the more information you provide the better your odds of getting a response.

Now back to your issue.

If NONE of the opto pairs are registering then it is most likely to be an issue with the power rail. A more central issue rather than a peripheral issue (i.e. closer to the source of the power rather than the distribution throughout the board).

wpc_16-opto_board.jpgwpc_16-opto_board.jpg

You mention that J5-12 has +12V (or thereabouts). Measure DC voltage at the highlighted points. Same deal as before. DMM set to DC voltage (V with straight bar over it). Black led to ground braid. Red lead to target point.

  • RED: Verifies continuity between J5-12 and blocking diode anode.
  • ORANGE: Verifies 1N4004 blocking diode is not open.
  • MAGENTA: Verifies distribution of +12V along the power rail. This does not cover all points but is a good starting point.

All the points should measure with some voltage close to +12V. Let's start here. Report back your findings.

#7633 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

Sorry about the small opto thing. It was the flipper opto.

The OEM boards do not have LEDs on them. You probably have an aftermarket board. Flipper cabinet switches are direct switches. They are NOT connected to the switch matrix. Not relevant to your problem.

Quoted from Thehipster:

All magenta are 12.14 volts approx. The red was 12volts and the red 11.7 volts.

The only other place that you haven't measured for power distribution is to the LM339 comparator but there is no reason to believe there's a problem there because your board looks clean.

Post an image of the J5 connector (playfield harness side).

#7635 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

Hope this is playfield harness side.

I was hoping it was going to be something (visually) obvious that would cause the entire TWO columns to be taken out. It should be something obvious as a single point of failure taking them out but it does not have to be a single point nor obvious.

The problem with electrical issues is that you often cannot "see" them. If after ruling out all the obvious non-board issues and everything points to the board then the path of least resistance is to replace the board. You can try to diagnose and repair the board but if you're not good with electronics I would not try to do this remotely.

Next steps:

  • Verify continuity of the GRN-ORG and GRN-YEL wires to the connector at the CPU board.
  • Post an image of the lower part of the CPU board (from the battery holder to the bottom of the board).
  • Post an image of the connector(s) at J206/J207.

Right now a lot of the simple easy things have been ruled out and you're fast heading to board repair or replacement.

#7642 2 years ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

I also checked the header pins on J207 and J209. They read 11.65v.

This circuit is pulsed and a DMM is typically not capable of a fast enough response to display the information.

To exclude the CPU board read https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Switch_Matrix_Problems and follow the directions there. If the switches in column 3 and 4 register using that test then the problem is going to be in the 16-opto board or the wiring. You can exclude the wiring by verifying continuity between the board headers and the transmitters / receivers. Given that there is a failure of both columns it is likely those will measure correct (continuity is present). As I mentioned many posts ago one single point of failure that will take out both columns is U5.

16-opto_U5.jpg16-opto_U5.jpg

Measure the voltage at U5-3 and verify it is +12VDC (in that range as this is unregulated).

#7652 1 year ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

I did the test attached in the pic and all switches are working.

This excludes the CPU board. The problem is going to be in the wiring or the playfield boards. I assume when you did this with column 3 and 4 that the switches in column 3 and 4 actually register. Seeing that definitively rules out the CPU board and most likely isolates the issue to the 16-opto board.

Quoted from Thehipster:

I also tested leg 3 (i hope that was the correct test point as im still learning) on the U5A on the 16 opto board which is reading 12vdc.

This means the comparator is getting the supply voltage (power) but it does NOT mean that it is working correctly.

At this stage the quickest, fastest, easiest way to get you going is to just replace the board. All the evidence points to a failure in the board. Doing any further diagnostics on the 16-opto board like this is just going to be painful. If you want to learn how to do the diagnosis that's a different thing but it won't be quick and easy. You might need to purchase additional diagnostic tools.

I have a 16-opto board that has been re-designed with LED diagnostics that I would love to sell you (not it is not a bridge) but that won't be a quick solution. Shipping to the UK from the US will take time. Your best bet for a quick solution is to purchase one from Pindora Box as they are located in Europe. I'm happy to provide you with my solution but it will likely be weeks (maybe a month or more) before you get it. Depends purely on the postal service.

The Pindora Box product @ https://www.pindorabox.com/product/opto-16-board-a-16998/ is the correct configuration for this machine (A-16998). Do NOT confuse with A-22019 that is electrically compatible but "upside down" and used only in very late WPC-95 machines (such as No Good Gofers).

2 weeks later
#7700 1 year ago
Quoted from Jeff1960:

Would anyone have a photo of how the wiring goes under the cannon cover I’m not sure on the new looms.

opto_wiring.jpgopto_wiring.jpg

The wires are labeled.

  • A/K (anode / cathode) are for the IR LED transmitter (the green opto board).
  • C/E (collector / emitter) are the for the phototransistor receiver (the blue opto board).

The colors of your replacement wiring are not standard - hence the reason why they are labeled. They are close to standard. I assume:

  • gray=anode
  • black=cathode
  • white=collector
  • orange=emitter

If you are unsure you can match colors on the Molex connectors. Knowing the original color (on the playfield harness side) and the replacement color (the new wiring) will help people tell you what goes where.

I can't see the label on the other wires so I cannot say anything further.

#7702 1 year ago
Quoted from Jeff1960:

Is there a positive and negative for the optos?

  • The IR LED (transmitter) has an anode (positive) and a cathode (negative).
  • The phototransistor (receiver) has a collector ("positive") and an emitter ("negative").

Some aftermarket boards have A/K labeled on the green board and C/E labeled on the blue board. I don't believe OEM boards are labeled. You will have to remember which pad is which when you remove the wire.

  • For the IR LED the GRY-XXX wire is the anode and the BLK wire is the cathode.
  • For the phototransistor the GRY wire is the collector and the ORG-XXX wire is the emitter.
#7725 1 year ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

My engineer friend thinks that it may be this connector in the picture. Any thoughts?

Those are the switch rows. It looks like you are highlighting rows 1, 5 and the key. If you are having a problem with these rows then this could be the cause but the problem you originally reported is the absence of columns 3 and 4. If I recall the last status is there is no problem with any of the rows so what you highlight seems unrelated to the problem you are trying to address. You can certainly re-pin the connector but it may not resolve your problem. If those pins are the problem you should either be seeing no switches in rows 1 and 5 registering or perhaps registering inconsistently.

4 weeks later
#7807 1 year ago
Quoted from Manny65:

If crimping two 22G wires to a molex crimp terminal, depending upon the terminal/housing series some have 2 crimp terminal sizes available, so you can use a larger 18G crimp terminal to help cater for the additional wire. Of course putting 2 wires into a single crimp is not what Molex recommend or test

The 0.156" pins for 18AWG are big enough to fit 2x 22AWG wires into the pin. It's best done by crimping one wire to the conductor of the pin and the other wire to the insulator of the pin. It's not ideal or recommended as you note. These pins are not big enough to fit 2x 18AWG wires.

The issue here is that the headers on these trough opto boards are 0.100" so you need 0.100" pins. These are tiny. No way 2x 22AWG wires are going to comfortably fit in the pin. That's my $0.02 (opinion).

This is not a trivial problem to solve in a straight forward manner. You will likely need to use one of the many suggestions for ways to get around this problem. There is no right or wrong as along as electrical connectivity is correct.

1 month later
#7913 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

This is what greeted me on the largest lamp board, over a dozen cold solder joints like these. Must have been the Friday before a three-day weekend at the Williams factory.

Quoted from Zitt:

Common, not a wms mfg defect.
Years of heat from those lamps will do this.

^^^ THIS ^^^

It's probably a combination of the radiating heat from the incandescent and the current that's actually heating up the joint.

Quoted from Eric_Manuel:

Of course you can reflow those connections.

These lamp boards are SINGLE sided boards without through holes. There is only the solder pad. Most people recommend "reflowing" solder (whatever that means in this context - see the Pinwiki article). If you want to repair the cracked joint put some flux at the joint and reheat the joint. Do NOT add more solder to a single sided board pad. There is nowhere for the extra solder to go except to pile up and make the mountain of solder even bigger. If you want to put some fresh solder down remove ALL the old solder first. If you just add solder you will end up with Mount Everest at the joint.

#7923 1 year ago

I generally don't push my boards. If people are interested they will do the reading and pursue their desired option. There are other 16-opto boards available.

The following boards are not listed in any particular order. The order is not an endorsement and should not be understood to be an endorsement in any way.

I also have a board but it's not advertised (other than information posted in my thread). See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-test-and-reproduction-pcbs/page/4#post-5867818 if you are interested.

Note: The Homepin and Pindora Box boards are based on A-22019 and mount "upside down" when used in A-16998 and A-17223 orientation. The barakandl, GLM and my board are based on A-16998 or A-17223 and mount correctly in most machines except when used in NGG and CP which originally used A-22019 and therefore these boards mount "upside down" in those machines.

EDIT: For completeness I should mention that the board is also available from another manufacturer/merchant but given the circumstances and controversy surrounding that manufacturer/merchant this option has not been listed.

#7929 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I think you are hinting at mounting holes on the bracket? If some boards will be upside down I suppose that means I just need to mirror the holes on each side so the bracket can go on either way. I will look into this the next time I ordered more boards.

I went back to take a closer look at fitment. The Pinwiki (https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#WPC_16_Opto_Board_.28A-16998.2C_A-17223.29) has an image for comparison and shows the difference. The later board (A-22019) can be installed in either orientation but the original board A-16998 can only be mounted in one orientation due to the lack of two sets of holes.

The number of machines that use A-16998 and A-17223 is many more than the number that use A-22019.

A-16998 and A-17223

  • Star Trek: The Next Generation production count = 11,728
  • Dirty Harry production count = 4,248
  • No Fear: Dangerous Sports production count = 4,540
  • WHO dunnit production count = 2,416
  • Scared Stiff production count = 4,028
  • Junk Yard production count = 3,013

Total maximum available machines = 29,973.

A-22019

  • No Good Gofers production count = 2,711
  • The Champion Pub production count = 1,369

Total maximum available machines = 4,080.

2 weeks later
#7982 1 year ago
Quoted from SNES:

D19 and D21 light up but D20 stays off. I’m assuming those are the three diagnostic LEDs, right?

The CPU board is not booting (no POST = power on self test).

Quoted from Manny65:

Looks like the blanking circuit (D19) is not turning off after 1sec when the CPU board is booting - just double check the diag LEDs again when you power the game on (below is the description of how the 3 LEDs should behave). It could possibly be C2 on the power driver board has leaked https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#WPC_and_WPC-S_Games_With_No_Solenoid.2C_Flasher_or_Feature_Lamps.2C_A_Blanking_Signal_Issue - one way to double check if it's the power driver board would be to swap the power driver boards b/n STTNG and The Shadow, to see if the issue moves with the board.

The BLANKING signal is generated by the ASIC. U9 pin 34. It is distributed to the power board through the ribbon cable. The power board does not generate the signal. It is consumed (distributed) to the ~OC (output control) pin of each of the flip-flops. This allows the system to disable the logic of the flip-flops and prevent damage to the system when the software crashes (hangs).

@SNES:

I would start with the basics. Power off the system whenever you disconnect or reconnect cables / connectors between each step.

  1. Isolate the CPU board by disconnecting everything except the power connector (J210).
  2. Power on the system and see if the board POSTs. If the board POSTs then you have a problem on one of the other boards interfering. You can isolate the board by reconnecting the ribbon cables to each of the supporting boards one-by-one to find out which one it is.
  3. If the board still does not POST then press firmly on the ASIC (U9). Try again.
  4. If the board still does not POST then re-seat all the socketed ICs on the CPU board. These are the processor (U4) and ROM (U6). Try again.
  5. If the board still does not POST then the next easiest thing to do is rule out the processor and ROM. The easiest way to do this is to use a known good CPU board.

Unfortunately your list of games does not show a compatible game that you can swap the board with. After all this and you still do not have a POST then you probably need to send the board out for repair. Those steps are the basics. Beyond that you need to look at the signals to see what's happening.

1 month later
#8115 1 year ago

An alternative implementation for the tie back modification can be seen @ https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-test-and-reproduction-pcbs/page/13#post-6637329 for those interested in other options.

#8138 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Pinwiki shows STTNG power driver board as an A-12697-1. The manual also specifies A-12697-1.

The Pinwiki is a great source of information and you should trust it. Just like Williams manuals it is NOT error free. The best part of the Pinwiki is that you can change it to correct errors. The Williams manuals ... not so much. Just let someone like ChrisH or JimP know about the errors and they (or someone else) can fix them.

These are images from the Williams manual. Other than the one page that specifies A-12697-1 it specifies A-12697-3 everywhere else. The page that references A-12697-1 uses the -1 designation because the board layout is -1. The difference is the flipper relay components and F112. This game uses A-12697-3 = NO flipper relays and associated circuitry.

00_sttng_backbox_assembly.jpg00_sttng_backbox_assembly.jpg01_sttng_power_driver_bom.jpg01_sttng_power_driver_bom.jpg02_sttng_power_driver_layout.jpg02_sttng_power_driver_layout.jpg03_sttng_power_driver_connections.jpg03_sttng_power_driver_connections.jpg

Quoted from jibmums:

and the interlock switch only had two lugs on this. This differs from the usual 2-slot door commonly seen on domestic STTNG, IJ, TZ, etc. and its interlock switch with more terminals.
You can see the wire harness to the coindoor only had terminals for the two switch lugs as well.

I don't see an interlock switch at all. All I see is a Cherry SPST microswitch wired as switch 22 (GRN-RED + WHT-RED). This is a low voltage switch on the switch matrix to detect coin door open / closed state. It does not interrupt high voltage. The high voltage interrupt (interlock) switch is a DPDT switch.

Post an image of the transformer and the wiring coming off the transformer secondary. Odds are you don't even have the "tap" of the high voltage secondaries and those wires route straight to the backbox (J102).

#8161 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Any chance you have some clear photos of your ST's converted over to U.S voltage?

It's much better if you post an image of YOURS. If you wait for an image from someone else you might be waiting forever. You're also asking them to open up their machine, take an image, download the image and then upload the image. You should probably do the work because you want the help. Plus, if you post an image you'll get MANY more eyeballs looking at it. There are many people here versed in voltage conversion configuration.

#8163 1 year ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

You know what's better than pictures of possibly someone else's hack job?
Get the manual. The WPC manual to be exact not the game manual. You will have the correct setup for 120V. Which wires go where in the connector from the transformer.

I agree but from what I have seen if someone is asking for images they probably cannot easily read wiring diagrams. Not everybody understands how to read wiring diagrams, schematics and such things.

The Pinwiki also very adequately documents all of this and a lot of people don't know about or read the Pinwiki.

2 weeks later
#8214 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

For a game that is a re-import that has been converted to domestic voltage, do you keep the line filter's foreign fuse rating of 8A normal blow, or switch to a 5A slow blow fuse for a domestic game? (from the manual, pg. 1-39)

  • Domestic (US=nominal 120VAC) line fuse rating is 8A.line_filter_fuse_120VAC.jpgline_filter_fuse_120VAC.jpg
  • Foreign (non-US=nominal 230VAC) line fuse rating is 5A.line_filter_fuse_230VAC.jpgline_filter_fuse_230VAC.jpg

It is always safe to underfuse so using 5A with 120VAC is safe. It is never safe to overfuse so using 8A with 230VAC is unsafe.

#8219 1 year ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Looks like I transposed those two fuse ratings. So according to those drawings, the line filter, thermistor, etc. are all the same part numbers, save for the fuse? I was always under the impression that the line filter was a different part for domestic vs foreign. Is it then just a matter of difference in the way the transformer is wired that determines a domestic vs foreign machine?

Note that the diagram shows the later WPC power wiring. Earlier WPC power wiring is different.

line_filter_early_wpc-89.jpgline_filter_early_wpc-89.jpg

The three important things to do when switching from nominal 120VAC to nominal 230VAC (or vice versa) are:

  1. Change the MOV (metal oxide varistor) if present.
  2. Change the line fuse (5A to 8A or 8A to 5A).
  3. Change the jumper settings on the voltage select connector.

The transform is IDENTICAL from machine to machine (for the same machine). The difference is the voltage select connector that directs how many turns of the primary winding is used (and /or where it is tapped) to generate the voltage of the secondary windings. The physical transformer itself is wired the same way.

Check the specification on the line filter. I believe they are usually rated to 250V and a current rating probably > 10A. This means that it will work no matter where in the world it is because it exceeds either 110V/8A or 230V/5A.

1 week later
#8250 1 year ago
Quoted from mtadams29:

Replaced, blew again. No idea what's going on as it was working wonderfully until last night.

So what's blowing again? Is it:

  1. only F103
  2. all of F901, F902, F903, F904 and F103

Your description is not specific enough to allow someone to provide you directed help. You will only get generalized help unless you are more specific.

I am going to assume that only F103 is repeatedly blowing.

Here's how you use the manual to figure out where a possible cause is for yourself. I have a special highlighting manual that assists you. This highlighting manual is not for sale.

Look at the power schematic to see where the power is derived and what fuse is in the path of what header pins.

00_wpc-89_50vdc_supply.jpg00_wpc-89_50vdc_supply.jpg

F103 protects +50V at J107-1.

Then look at the solenoid table and see which solenoids are supplied by the +50V from the header pin.

01_sttng_solenoid_table.jpg01_sttng_solenoid_table.jpg

Look at the green box for the supply. Find the corresponding header pin in the red box. Note the corresponding drive connector in the orange box. Note the corresponding drive transistor in the yellow/gold box. For this game note the asterisks that clearly indicate the drive connector and transistors are on the 8-Auxiliary Driver board.

Here are some (not the only) diagnostic steps:

  • Disconnect J107 and power on. If F103 blows there's a problem on your board. This is unlikely.
  • Reconnect J107 and disconnect J4 (on the 8-Driver Auxiliary board). If F103 blows you likely have a short in the playfield. This is unlikely.
  • Test the drive transistors listed in the yellow/gold box. One of them is probably shorted.

You should also mention if you do or do not hear the sound of a "locked on" solenoid. If you hear a solenoid plunger energizing at power on this is more evidence that you have a shorted transistor. If you do not hear anything then it is more indicative of a short in the wiring rather than a short in the transistor. This is not definitive. You could have a short in the solenoid and a shorted transistor. This means no magnetic field is generated and current flows directly to ground through the shorted transistor.

The more information you provide, the more someone can give you directed help.

Note that for this game, this kind of problem is typically related to the tieback diode wire. Assistance with that issue is beyond the scope of this post at this time.

#8254 1 year ago
Quoted from mtadams29:

F103 blown, F901, 903, and 904 also blown, F902 was fine, assuming because it's not actually used. Short at the flippers somehow?

A few small pieces of advice.

  • I would not guess or ass-u-me. I would look at diagrams and try to diagnose the problem. If you want to guess then go follow your guess and see where it leads rather than asking the general audience to confirm your guess. Why wait for the audience when you go look for your guess yourself? If you don't want to guess then report your findings and ask for direction.
  • You should consult the manuals. A lot of the information you need is documented in them.
  • You should try to focus on one thing at a time. If you do too many things at once, you'll just confuse the reader and yourself when posts cross all the issues. If you present too many things at once, you may also put off people from replying. I know when I see a wad of issues I just ignore it. Too much and too complicated. Not worth my time helping.
  • You should probably try to follow the advice previously given and report your findings. There was advice given for F103 but I don't see any follow up on it. I only see more questions about F901, F902, F903 and F904.

Here is how to confirm that F902 is not related to anything.

This is the same information in the solenoid table.

00_sttng_flippers.jpg00_sttng_flippers.jpg

Notice the unused flipper is powered by J907-4. So what fuses this header?

01_wpc-89_flipper_power_supply.jpg01_wpc-89_flipper_power_supply.jpg

Quoted from mtadams29:

I have replaced the flipper opto boards, both sides, and left flipper was recently rebuilt, the old one broke.

Quoted from mtadams29:

I have also replaced the flipper board, the 8 driver board

Just because you replaced something doesn't mean it's working correctly. Just because you replaced a board with a "new" board doesn't mean the board doesn't have a manufacturing defect (new board != guaranteed working board).

  • Disconnect J902. Test for fuse blow. It should not blow. If it blows look for playfield short in the wiring.
  • Test drive transistors for the flippers (listed in the table above). Report findings.
  • Not sure about something? Post an image so someone (else) can see what you see in front of you.

EDIT: The purpose of the post is to help me (us) to help you.

#8268 1 year ago
Quoted from mtadams29:

So I turned it on to run tests again and now all of the solenoids EXCEPT those running on the 8-driver board are not functioning. Checking the manual says the run through J107 to J130 and J127 respectively. Those transistors on the power board Q64 through Q82 all read as failed.

A few things here:

  • When a group of solenoids (such as 1-8 or 9-16) do not work then first check the corresponding fuse. These are the fuses in F101, F102, F103, F104 and F105. Do not visually inspect them. Pull one end out of the fuse holder and test them that way.
  • If there is power then you can check the playfield wiring by momentarily grounding the transistor tab. With solenoids 1-8 do not ground the TIP36C. The tab of the TIP36C is already connected to ground.
  • If the playfield wiring verifies then check the transistors. You have done this. The problem is that you report transistors Q64 through Q82 as testing bad but these are TIP36C transistors. You must check them using PNP testing not NPN testing. Go back and test them as PNP transistors.
Quoted from mtadams29:

I do have a RottenDog power board that I am going to swap in when time permits, although I think it has bad transistors in the same spot.

Rottendog boards use MOSFETs. My understanding is that these do not test the same as BJTs so you should be aware of this.

Quoted from mtadams29:

If both boards have bad transistors I obviously need to replace them. But something caused them to blow initially, so how do I prevent it from happening again? Can I?

This is one of the issues that plagues diagnostics. You need to be sure that you have things correct before applying power otherwise you will end up in a lather, rinse and repeat cycle of replacing components.

Start with the fuses and correct transistor verification method first. A failure of a group of transistors is extremely unlikely. If a group of solenoids fails it is more likely to be a logic problem.

#8274 1 year ago
Quoted from mtadams29:

So, when I do this the solenoid DOES fire. Does that mean the wiring is "acceptable"? can you explain what I am confirming here?

For TIP102 (not TIP36C) configuration:

  • Current leaves the power board from a pin at J107.
  • Current moves along supply wire to one solenoid lug.
  • Current moves from one lug through the solenoid winding to the other lug = generates a magnetic field.
  • Current moves from other solenoid lug along drive wire to power board.
  • Current enters the collector and exits the emitter of the transistor to ground.

The base of the transistor controls the flow of current from collector to emitter. When you ground the tab, you are simply connecting the collector to emitter as the tab is connected to the collector. The legs are BCE as you look at them from the "front" and the center leg (collector) is connected to the tab. This proves that your playfield wiring is correct. It indicates the problem is at the control of the transistor (either the transistor itself or the cascade of control upstream).

Quoted from mtadams29:

Looking for a good youtube video on how to do this, everything I am finding shows the transistors alone, not in the board. Any recommendations?

Try this: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Coil_Locks_On

I suspect you will find that there's nothing wrong with the transistors. Multiple transistor failure is extremely unlikely. When you have multiple solenoid failures, it's most commonly the fuse and beyond that, the digital logic that controls the group of solenoids.

1 month later
#8401 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

when I booted up my switch matrix now looks like this.

Looks normal to me - assuming there are no balls in the ball trough.

Quoted from Deleenhe:

Until now, all switches were working except the gun home and mark switches, now suddenly two rows are on. I reseated J207, no change. Any ideas?

I don't see any row short.

Quoted from MrMikeman:

Optos are all out. Check the associated fuse (12v). I don’t remember off the top of my head which one.

Looks normal to me - assuming there are no balls in the ball trough.

sttng_switch_matrix_chart.jpgsttng_switch_matrix_chart.jpg

I must be missing something obvious and living up to the username that I am using.

#8405 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

Just slings and everything after them in the test menu are dead.

sttng_solenoid_flasher_table.jpgsttng_solenoid_flasher_table.jpg

  • Everything in YELLOW (gold) works.
  • Everything in ORANGE does NOT work.
  • Everything in GREEN does NOT work. Or does everything in GREEN work?

Please clarify. The details will allow differential diagnosis.

#8408 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

Yellow works, orange and green do not work.

There are a few different possible causes to take out an entire group of 8 solenoids. Since all 8 are out, it is more likely to be central (board) than peripheral (playfield). More likely but not absolutely.

Quoted from Deleenhe:

PI don’t see any blown fuses, are these all on a commen fuse?

The orange group are fused by F104. The green group are fused by F103. It is unlikely (but not impossible) that both fuses blew at the same time. Check them both. Pull one end of the fuse out of the fuse holder and measure continuity (resistance). Do NOT visually inspect them. Measure.

If the fuses are good then measure for voltage at each of the solenoids in the string. Since all solenoids in a string are out, it is likely that if there is a break, it is at the head of the daisy chain. If all the solenoids have voltage then ground the drive transistor tab to verify your playfield wiring.

Start there. No need for further diagnostic steps that may not be relevant and only confuse the situation even more.

#8411 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

One other issue that is likely unrelated, none of the gun position switches are registering. I have traced the violet-white wire all the way back to the board and it has continuity so not sure where to go next.

These switches do not show up in the switch matrix tests (T.1 through T.3). They are in switch column 9 and processed through the 8-Driver (Auxiliary) board. Use the machine specific gun tests to see whether these switches register.

Quoted from Deleenhe:

Update, after replacing fuses, now Yellow and Orange work, Green does not.

Those solenoids are driven by the 8-Driver board. If the fuse tests good, check for voltage at the header on the PDB and then the solenoids. If the solenoids have voltage, ground the (corresponding) drive transistor on the 8-Driver board to test your wiring. This will differentiate central versus peripheral.

#8413 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

So I’m clear on this, do I ground the outgoing drive pin, eg for solenoid 37 I would ground pin J4-2?

https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Coil_Fails_to_Work

Specifically section 6.25.6.3 (Coil Power is Not Finding a Path to Ground). Grounding the drive transistor tab (subsection 2). This is just to verify that the power is present (it should be as you measured voltage at the solenoid) and the path to ground is available when the drive transistor is "enabled".

It is extremely unlikely that all your drive transistors and/or wiring are broken. For a failure of the entire group of solenoids, it has to be something more central but ruling out the peripheral problems is good so you know you are chasing down the (potentially) correct path.

#8422 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

she’s up and running.

So what was the cause of the power problems and what was the resolution? The purpose of providing help is so that future readers of the thread will have something to reference about issues and resolution.

#8426 1 year ago
Quoted from Deleenhe:

I had missed a pin on J103 so only one of the grounds was connected.

This won't cause a problem. All the pins on this connector are ground.

Quoted from Deleenhe:

The fuses installed were also fast-blow fuses instead of slow-blow, I'm not sure if that just made them more sensitive but once I fixed the connector and replaced F104, F105 and F111 with slow blow, it as been ok.

Fast blow fuses should not be used with inductive loads. Solenoids are inductive loads. Use a slow blow. You figured it out!

Quoted from Deleenhe:

I also found the ribbon cable to J1 on the 8-driver board was not aligned properly, I think that was why the solenoids 37-40 weren't firing.

More than likely. This ribbon cable is easy to mis-orient or install off by one in the X or Y axis.

Quoted from Deleenhe:

Interestingly I could not get my multimeter to read proper voltage on any of the solenoids in the solenoid test mode. I would read ~2.5V but they all work fine.

This game has an interlock switch at the coin door for the transformer secondary high voltage windings.

1 month later
#8616 1 year ago
Quoted from frodak99:

Here’s hoping the opto is the only problem.

Empty all the balls from the trough. Enter switch test (either edges or levels). Post an image of the DMD (8x8 switch matrix status). Everything in column 3 and 4 should be closed. Most of column 6 should be closed. Switch 24 should be closed.

#8619 1 year ago
Quoted from frodak99:

Here’s the picture, any help interpreting would be awesome.

sttng_16-opto (resized).jpgsttng_16-opto (resized).jpg

Switch 37, 38, 47 and 48 are not registering.

  • Differentiate between opto pairs and state detection logic.

    • If state detection logic then you will need to investigate electrically.
    • If opto pair then you will need to differentiate transmitter versus receiver. It is usually the transmitter. It is unlikely that 4 opto pairs have simultaneously failed. It is more likely that you have a 16-opto board (electrical) problem.

Since you have an unusual 2x2 failure, you should consult the 16-opto board schematic and look for paths that are common to those switches. Focus on rows 7 and 8. Probably the LM339 comparator.

2 weeks later
#8691 1 year ago
Quoted from Hammerhead:

Can anyone post photos of the trough board connectors on their STTNG. On mine, the LED PCB connector is chewed up pretty bad and the photo transistor PCB connector has been reconstructed, but on both connectors the +12V and ground wires don't match the manual.

You can post images of your wiring as well. The wiring in the manual is correct.

sttng_ball_trough_wiring.jpgsttng_ball_trough_wiring.jpg
#8717 1 year ago
Quoted from Hammerhead:

Nope, that wasn't it after all.
This switch matrix glitch is kicking my ass!

Sorry. Got distracted. The wire order looks correct. What is of importance is that there is no "loop" for the GRY-YEL wire. It is supposed to be wired in parallel but with each individual wire going into the connector, there is no "loop" and therefore it is not wired in parallel. The parallel wiring is achieved by the connection on the board. This means that if you remove the connector you break the parallel wiring.

This appears to apply for both the transmitter connector (5 pins) and the receiver connector (12 pins). It does not explain whatever your problem is if the connectors are inserted into the headers. I have no clue what your problem is since it doesn't look like you have actually specified what it is.

#8719 1 year ago

Ah. I see. Those date back to two to three months ago. Sorry. I have recently had a lot of "senior moments". It also looks like nobody else in this club thread has made any suggestions.

Quoted from Hammerhead:

Following up on an older post, hope someone can help.
When all balls are in the trough (not yet staged) the six standup targets register double hits corresponding to the ball trough optos - switches 51 and 61, 52 and 62, 53 and 63, 54 and 64, 55 and 65, 56 and 66. As the balls are staged into the game and the trough empties, some of the double hits go away.
The trough opto boards were replaced by the previous owner with the Pinball Haus boards, not sure if this is a contributing factor.
Anyone ever experience something similar before?

Quoted from Hammerhead:

Yes, the pin came with new homepin boards, its the connectors that are suspect.

The reporting that you provide leads to a potential conclusion that there is something wrong on the board. A "new" board does not mean a "good" board. It could have been good at some point in time but was damaged by something that happened in your machine's history. I believe the Pinside member pins4u is fond of stating that this manufacturer has a lifetime warranty of their products. I would contact the manufacturer to see if they will honor that warranty.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/no-flippy-on-one-flipper-was-working-well-now#post-7217675

1 month later
#8978 1 year ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Can someone confirm this is the correct wiring for the 5pin trough connector ?

It's a detail ... but ...

wiring1.jpgwiring1.jpg

!= (or <> or "does not equal")

wiring2.jpgwiring2.jpg

2 weeks later
#9047 11 months ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

... Pin_Guy (welcome back!) ...

200% agree. Welcome back @ Pin_Guy.

Quoted from bobukcat:

... you should check Q15 and Q16. If the voltage on R15 toggles when you turn the GI on and off in test mode you probably have a bad SCR at Q16, if not check the voltage on the base of Q15 and make sure it toggles when turning GI on and off. Assuming you have good continuity to Q16 it's almost certainly one of those two are bad.

  • Q15 is a PNP 2N5401 transistor in a TO-92 package.
  • Q16 is a 4-quadrant triac in a TO-220 package.

The software rapidly toggles the triac to control the amount of current flowing through it resulting in incandescent brightness. I have never seen a bad triac on any power driver board that I have repaired. I have only seen really bad repairs and attempted repairs of the headers.

Quoted from math08:

I do not see any burnt wires/connectors. I have 5.25 v on the good playfield GI line and .3 v on the bad line. Wire is white with green stripe.

<disclaimer>This is NOT a personal attack. I do not know your experience and knowledge.</disclaimer>

I have seen many people post that "I don't see any obvious problem" or "I don't see any battery alkaline corrosion" (when dealing with the CPU board not the power driver board). When pushed to post an image, there is an obvious problem (or obvious problems) to people with more experienced eyes.

Please post an image of the board (headers at J115/J120/J121) and the corresponding connectors. I could be 100% barking up the wrong tree here but I have seen a few too many instances where a person asking for help says one thing but the actual situation (not seen by everybody else) is different. A picture (image) is worth 1,000 words.

One other thing to verify is that you are measuring VAC, not VDC and that you are measuring it correctly. You should get ~6VAC on every other GI string. If you don't get the same measurement on the other strings then you are probably measuring incorrectly. Note that you should measure the VAC when the GI strings are fully illuminated (not dimmed).

#9049 11 months ago
Quoted from math08:

I have taken pictures of the board at H115,J120 and J121, and the connectors as you asked.

Looks like there is prior work at J115 and J121. Always suspect prior work - including your own (if you did it).

Quoted from math08:

Yes, I measured VAC. It was approx 5.3V on the playfield GI line which works. On the other line, only a nominal .25V. All of the playfield GI lights on the white/green stripe line are out.

The best way to measure GI VAC is header pin to header pin. Pull the connector out and just measure what the board is outputting. If you have the connector inserted in the header and measure that then you are measuring a circuit with a load. Exclude the load as the cause by removing it from your measurement.

Quoted from math08:

Please look at the pics and let me know if I am in fact not seeing something right, or if I should try looking at something else with regards to the problem.

First, easy thing to try is to swap the connectors between J120 and J121. Unlikely to cause a change but quick and easy to try. All the traces at J121 except the VIO wire are on the solder side of the board.

After that, the next most likely thing I would suspect is J115. That header has been replaced and quite a fair number of those traces originate on the component side of the board. If the through hole has been pulled there may be a lack of (or reduced) continuity. A view of the solder side of the board would be nice to have. You will have to remove the board in order to acquire this image. It will certainly allow a better assessment of the prior work since the work is mostly on the solder side of the board and hidden when installed.

You could avoid this by measuring continuity between points but you will have to consult the schematic to determine which points to measure between.

#9053 11 months ago

First up. Let me apologize. Some of this might sound terse. It's not personal to you. It could apply to other forum members. I am somewhat easily frustrated by people who say one thing (i.e. I know what I'm doing) and when challenged to explain it (or just describe it without the challenge), it is shown that what they are doing is, in fact, incorrect. Either that, or they have not expressed what they did with adequate enough detail to discern exactly what is going on.

Quoted from math08:

I took off the connector and tested voltage at pin 10 and 11. 10 is the white wire with green stripe (bad GI strip) and 11 is the white wire with purple stripe (good GI strip). The voltage at both was 7.7 VAC.

This is NOT how you measure VAC. VAC is measured point-to-point in pairs from what is considered "hot" to "neutral". Often, neutral is tied to ground but not always. In this case the pairs are:

  • BRN / WHT-BRN
  • ORG / WHT-ORG
  • YEL / WHT-YEL
  • GRN / WHT-GRN
  • VIO / WHT-VIO

When you measure the AC, you measure between those wires. Since it is AC the color of your DMM lead does not matter. Put one lead on the BRN wire and the other on the WHT-BRN wire while you DMM is set to VAC (V with the tilde line above it). Proceed for all five pairs. For the J120/J121 header the pins are:

  • 1 to 7
  • 2 to 8
  • 3 to 9
  • 5 to 10
  • 6 to 11

Pin 4 is the key pin. You can measure these pins on both J120 and J121. They should measure identically (if the GI is fully illuminated - i.e. not dimmed). If you don't measure the same across the circuits (strings) then check the corresponding fuse first then check the connection at J115. The fuse is the much more likely cause for the lack of VAC. Since someone has done work on J115, the odds are good that that is the probable cause. I have repaired quite a few of these headers where someone has pulled most every through hole. They are often repaired with jumper wires on the back of the board. Those who don't verify their repair work just assume that everything works.

Note that I have no actual evidence for the above speculation. Only my experience and the "odds" game. Sometimes, people replace the triacs and cause damage there as well (pulled through holes and pads). The only real way to see this is for you to remove the board from your game and post images of the back side of the board.

Again, apologies if that's terse and unfriendly. I've seen plenty of these issues and I've seen plenty of posts of people "measuring VAC" and reporting it "good" when they aren't measuring it correctly.

#9064 11 months ago
Quoted from math08:

The yellow wire is coming off of J 115 and goes to one of the Triacs.

That YEL jumper wire is for the transformer secondary servicing the VIO / WHT-VIO string. The GRN / WHT-GRN string is serviced by pin 10 and pin 5. I thought someone had posted the link but I must be confusing it with another thread. There seems to be a lot of posts (not just this thread) asking for help with troubleshooting tips and solutions well documented in the Pinwiki. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#General_Illumination_Problems for more information. See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/File:GIBuzzGreen.jpg for specific information on the GRN / WHT-GRN string.

Quoted from math08:

I have no idea what the two red wires are for. The larger one comes off of J 102 and goes to one of the two components under the large rectangular aluminum heat sink.

Someone probably replaced J101 in an attempt to "fix" resets. In doing this, the through hole for the 13.3VAC transformer secondary on the header pin pads was removed. This restores continuity.

Quoted from math08:

The smaller red wire seems to come off the other component under the large rectangular aluminum heat sink and goes to something else on the board.

Again, someone replaced BR2 and C5 in an attempt to "fix" resets. This was common mantra. I don't agree with this. In my experience, the most common cause for WPC resets is header and connector issues. If I'm playing the "odds" game then I would put my money on headers and connectors before BR2 and C5. Often more damage is done trying to replace BR2 and C5. Damage that often causes WPC resets due to the poor board work. This RED-YEL jumper wire restores continuity from the (probably) pulled through hole at C5 or pulled through hole at the positive leg of BR2. VERY common in prior repair work. Seen plenty of these.

Quoted from math08:

The last pic is the back of the header on J 121.

Aside from the excessive "mounds" of solder and the lack of cleaning off the flux, this "looks" good. Since I don't have electron vision, the ultimate way to know is to test continuity with a DMM.

Quoted from math08:

Is the board toast?

No. This board has been "molested" but it can be fixed. If you are inexperienced with removing headers, you don't necessarily have to remove them. You can just add more jumper wires to restore any lost continuity. For your GRN / WHT-GRN issue, if you test for continuity between the indicated points in the Pinwiki image from zaza, and don't find it, then you can restore it with a jumper wire. The repair may be as simple as that.

If you are uncomfortable with board work then you should send the board out for repair. There are many reputable repair technicians. I recommend Chris Hibler but there are others (Coin-op Cauldron comes to mind).

#9071 11 months ago
Quoted from math08:

This is on his website: NOTE: My queue at this time is about 90 days deep.

I think the site has said that for years or so. He probably doesn't update his website. It's probably advisable to email/message for current estimates. I don't publish my estimates because it fluctuates.

1 month later
#9241 10 months ago
Quoted from Axl:

Actually, that board is brand new!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that board is NOT new. It is possible someone got a hold of a bare OEM board and populated it but it looks like someone has either replaced a whole bunch of components or "reflowed" them on a used board.

  • The capacitor at C2 is a ceramic radial. They didn't use ceramic radial capacitors when this board was manufactured.
  • The 74ALS576 looks to be dated from 1987 week 48.

The least they could have done is cleaned off the flux from all their work.

#9245 10 months ago
Quoted from Cudaman:

Sorry for being dense, but what is the absolute best way to do the tie back fix? I have read the different info and am slightly confused. Do I cut the small purple wire on the drop target near the rear of the game, pull that all the way through to the backbox and attach it to a trifurcon pin and locate it on 108-1 wth a new connector? Or do I solder on a new wire from J4-1 to connect to 108-1 and leave the wire on the coil lug of the drop target? What about this adding a diode on the back of a board? What is that all about? I guess I only want to do this once and world like it to be the cleanest and best way possible. Any actual pictures would be helpful.

The question you are asking about "absolute best" is PURELY OPINION. You will get a whole lot of different opinions (especially on this forum) about what the poster thinks is the best way to do something. Often, without any evidence or reason why they think so (perhaps other than because it is the way they did it).

I will offer one opinion (about one specific aspect of your question) with some reasoning for WHY it's a bad idea. Do NOT pull the tieback diode wire back through the harness. This makes the harness "not factory" and removes what can be considered "insurance" (backup wire). Leave the original tieback diode in place and add any extra wires you want. If you pull it out then that's effectively an IRREVERSIBLE (actually difficult to restore) change. You will still need to bridge the 50V output from the Power Driver board to the 8-Driver Auxiliary board to implement the tieback "mod" or "fix". This is best done with a new wire.

Leaving as much as possible as "factory" means that the next person who consults the manual won't say "WTF is this extra wire doing here? I'll rip it out and restore it to factory" and in doing so removes the ONLY wire (because you removed the original tieback diode wire) protecting the system. It doesn't hurt to have two wires implementing tieback diode electrical requirements.

2 weeks later
#9338 9 months ago

Let's clear up all the confusion on proximity sensor boards. You need to understand the history and revisions to understand what is compatible with what. Key post this if you want.

  1. A-16922

    • "Proximity Sensor II" - the original release with STTNG.
    • Manual calibration.
    • Smaller form factor.
    • Uses 4N25 to interface with the switch matrix.
    • Uses 2x 3300pF capacitors for sensing.
    • Uses a base 9.09k Ohm resistor with a 2k potentiometer for adjustment.
  2. A-17565

  3. A-18543-1 (note the -1)

    • Manual calibration.
    • Larger form factor.
    • Same circuitry as A-17565 with the service bulletin implemented.
    • Uses 2x 3300pF capacitors for sensing.
    • Uses a base 4.7k Ohm resistor with a 10k potentiometer for adjustment.
    • Used in Theatre of Magic for lane detection.
  4. A-18543-2 (note the -2)

    • Manual calibration.
    • Same as A-18543-1 except for some component values.
    • Uses 1x 470pF and 1x 150pF capacitors for sensing.
    • Uses a base 2k Ohm resistor with a 10k potentiometer for adjustment.
    • Used in Theatre of Magic for trunk hit, Road Show for dozer hit and Scared Stiff for crate hit.
  5. A-22149-2 (note the -2)

    • Auto (or self) calibration.
    • Even larger form factor.
    • Detection circuitry is similar but uses an electronic poteniometer rather than a rotary potentiometer.
    • Electronic potentiometer is under software control.
    • Uses 1x 680pF and 1x 820pF capacitors for sensing.
    • Uses a base 2k Ohm resistor with the electronic potentiometer.
    • Used in Cirqus Voltaire for ring master hit.
  6. A-22149-1 (note the -1)

    • Same as A-22149-2 except for some component values.
    • Uses 2x 3900pF capacitors for sensing.
    • Uses a base 2k Ohm resistor with the electronic potentiometer.
    • Used in Monster Bash for phantom flip.

There are several manufacturers making both manual and self calibrating boards. Be aware that the manual calibration boards will only support either -1 or -2 but typically not both. When purchasing a manual calibration board, you must make sure you purchase the correct -1 or -2 variant.

These are the manufacturers that I am aware of. These boards may or may not be PHYSICALLY compatible. Check for form factor compatibility before purchase. If unsure then you should inquire with the manufacturer or merchant.

The order below is NOT an endorsement of any particular manufacturer. It simply random and whatever order I processed the list.

I also have boards available. See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-test-and-reproduction-pcbs/page/10#post-6308140 and https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dumbass-test-and-reproduction-pcbs/page/25#post-7516807 for images. Inquire with messaging if interested.

#9341 9 months ago
Quoted from Pinball_Postal:

Unsure of DumbAss board cost, but the one at Weebly has the best price of those listed. It's not auto calibrating.
Andrew provides great support as well.

I wholeheartedly 100% agree that Andrew's board are great and he provides great support. For those that don't care about SMT vs THT, I recommend his boards. I cannot beat his prices since he has automated assembly. I would rather support the small hobbyist than the big manufacturer and merchant, but that's my preference. If you support the hobbyist then you'll probably get better support now and in the future.

I offer my boards bare (a niche market) or complete (inquire for pricing and availability). I have manual calibration and auto calibration - as seen in the link images. I don't publish prices because posts are static and age whereas component supply is dynamic and fluid. I don't want a post from a year ago with a price to be considered static.

#9344 9 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I was pretty sure A-16922-1 and A-17565 are both the same size and found in STTNG depending on date of manufacture. The circuitry is a little different between the two, but should function the same. The later one being an updated design (maybe the first one had issues?) The proximity board in Theater of Magic is different size (but I think the circuitry is the same).
WMS changed same components around A-17565 vs A-16922-1. When I did this board the manual listed one part number, my actual game had a different part number. My friend's TOM had a third different board (not sure of the PN right now).
So far no one has complained about it not fitting that has bought one, but I am pretty sure I advertise it as only for STTNG. I've been meaning to see if it can "work" in TOM.

You are correct. I stand corrected. I went back and looked more closely at the images in that service bulletin thread and I was mixing up the A-18543 images. That thread does show the original A-16922, A-17565 and A-18543. The A-16922 and A-17565 appear to be the same size with the different components. The change to A-18543 and the insertion of D3 caused the board to get a little bigger such that instead of the 3 resistors, it's 3 resistors and the diode. I am fairly sure your board (supporting A-16922 and A-17565) will work electrically in a ToM. I am fairly sure it will not fit the old holes physically.

#9352 9 months ago
Quoted from Sheev_Palpatine:

This is a lot for my simple brain lol but it does look like this board would work in sttng- correct?
https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-eddy-sensor-board-assembly.html
This board says: Williams/Bally reference #A-18543-1
You have written for A-18543-1 (note the -1)

The problem is that the text/wording in the page on the website doesn't explicitly say that. At least, the way I read it. It appears to imply compatibility with A-18543-2.

There are TWO primary points.

  1. The size of the A-18543-1 or A-18543-2 board is larger than the factory supplied A-16922 or A-17565. The board is electrically compatible but not physically compatible.
  2. The website does not allow you to specify -1 or -2 when ordering. So how will you know which board you get? You can roll the dice with this and hope you get the correct board.

If using a manual calibration board that is SMT is acceptable to you then purchase the one from Andrew (barakandl or nvram.weebly.com). There's no point purchasing the Anarchy from Pinball Life since it gains you nothing with respect to the two points above. If you want a THT board then you are forced into purchasing the Anarchy from Pinball Life or I have this board (manual with THT) available for $5 cheaper (my current pricing is $45).

If you want an auto calibration board then you must accept the physical difference since there is no physically compatible board that is auto calibration. In that case, you have two choices after you accept the physical difference. You can purchase the Tangles board or I have this board available for current pricing of $75. The Tangles board after AUD to USD exchange is about $63.

You need to make a choice that only you can make as to which board you want depending on what your requirements are and what is acceptable to you.

The whole reason I post all this stuff is so that a potential purchaser is as fully informed as they can be to make the best informed decision. If the data is not interesting then just go ahead and purchase a board (roll the dice).

#9356 9 months ago
Quoted from Cudaman:

Thanks for this pic. So with the new switch, you just wire it like the old switch with the top spade not being used? Looks that way in your picture. Can I test with the DMM with the game off? And if so, which setting do I use? Have never really learned how to use a DMM properly.

Look at the switch itself. It will have markings. Follow the post @ https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dr-dude-mix-master-not-working-after-new-switch-install#post-7052698 to figure out how you should wire the switch.

Do not rely on the wiring from an image as you may be using a switch with different terminals.

Always check the switch terminal markings and connect the wires and diode the same way to the terminals. There are numerous ways to INCORRECTLY wire a switch. There is effectively ONE way to wire a switch correctly.

#9362 9 months ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

will look at the board later.

There are a few options for a replacement board if you decide to go down that route. I have one which implements the pull down resistor as well as a special feature.

00_8-driver_auxiliary.jpg00_8-driver_auxiliary.jpg

Quoted from Thehipster:

I have read a lot about the tie back mod but I think it is beyond my capabilities.

I made it easy for people who want a simple solution.

01_8-driver_auxiliary.jpg01_8-driver_auxiliary.jpg

Use the unused J108 header and build a cable from there to the special tie back header.

  • 3-pin 0.156" housings. Quantity 2.
  • 0.156" pins. Trifurcon recommended. Quantity 2.
  • 22AWG wire cut to length and crimped with pins inserted into housing. Quantity 1.

I also have pass through "tap" boards that allow you to implement the solution without modifying ANY of the OEM wiring. Same single requirement to build a cable.

boards_195.jpgboards_195.jpg

Of course, you can implement any of the other available solutions.

#9375 9 months ago
Quoted from Thehipster:

Can you tell me if there is an off machine test for a bad transistor. I have another pin with transistor problems and I am eager to learn the fundamentals.

#9381 9 months ago
Quoted from LouMatt:

I learned that Americans and Canadiens/British People spell 'Maneuver' differently today. Always interesting when that happens. You would think in the internet age we could all just spell things the same way.

Here are some other examples of differences:

  • authorize vs authorise
  • heme vs haeme
  • neighbor vs neighbour (like color vs colour)

There are also differences in vowel pronunciation. Some examples:

  • new as "noo" vs "knee-you"
  • stupid as "stoopid" vs "stew-pid"

Of course, there are regional differences (accent) that vary across any country. Pronunciation is regional. Spelling is typically national or "dialect" based. I am sure this applies to other languages like French or Spanish spoken outside the "native" region. As a somewhat extreme example, Mandarin is the official (spoken) dialect but Cantonese, Chaozhou or Hokkien are other dialects. They share the same writing for the most part (simplified in PRC and full form (traditional) in Hong Kong and ROC) but their pronunciation is completely different.

Quoted from Zitt:

Sadly, people used the brand name to discuss generalize products... Which seems wrong, but is normal. Line "coke" instead of pop or soda

In my experience, this appears to (originally) be a uniquely American thing. It is catching on elsewhere due to US influence (typically through entertainment = content).

  • Xerox that document = photocopy that document
  • Hoover that mess = vacuum that mess
  • Google for the information = search for the information

The one thing I have seen that crosses the national or cultural barrier is medication.

  • I was prescribed Coumadin to prevent DVT = I was prescribed warfarin to prevent DVT
  • Opioids are reversed with Narcan nasal spray = Opioids are reversed with naloxone nasal spray
  • Use Tylenol (US) / Panadol (elsewhere) for that headache = Use acetaminophen (US) / paracetamol (elsewhere) for that headache
2 months later
#9574 7 months ago
Quoted from oradke:

I‘m here to learn and talk about the game, not to watch commercials.

I'm here to try to help people out with issues they may have. I would love to be able to advertise and peddle my products but I believe that such things should be in a separate thread so anybody interested can go read that thread rather than bombing another thread.

However, if anybody else wants to peddle my products ...

2 weeks later
#9635 6 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

It is either on or off - but multiple 100's of times a second when there is an issue. Not on enough to actually flip the flipper, but plenty to heat up and heat damage the coil. I don't see why the naysayers don't get that right away.

I am, by no means, an electronics expert but for those who want a better understanding do a search for "What is meant by hysteresis in electronics?" and you will probably find multiple articles explaining it. Another search for "What is a schmitt trigger?" will provide additional information.

I guess another way to think of this is similar to how PWM allows LED dimming.

Quoted from slochar:

It is funny when someone posts a question, many people tell them the correct way to fix, and they instead argue and say "it can't be that" - but won't even try it.
Why did they bother posting asking for help??

Agree with this. This is part of the reason I am now quite picky about what threads I post in. I have seen this in real life many times over. I stop interacting with people who exhibit this behavior.

Quoted from slochar:

In a related note, there's an assumption when something goes wrong that you point at the most complicated thing in the circuit first (like a chip) vs. the easy stuff. There's a reason everyone says to do the easy stuff first, because some high percentage of the time, it's the easy thing that's broke. Don't over complicate stuff.

Agree with this as well. Everything, and I mean everything, in life is an odds game. The higher frequency causes have higher odds of being correct. Anyone interested in a shotgun approach to troubleshooting should always play the odds game. Then again, if the shotgun approach is being used then it's not really systematic and likely the odds game does not feature in the decision making process.

#9637 6 months ago
Quoted from koji:

AFAIK, the receiver side is essentially a resistor, so at some point near the point of closure, perhaps the polling on the value of this is going to be interpreted rapidly on and off, giving you a simulation of the same effect as a tap pass on a earlier machine where the flipper button is closing a direct circuit?

Same caveat. I am not formally trained in electronics. I did high school physics. The rest is just reading. A lot of reading. The same material until some of it sinks in.

The flipper cabinet switch is a slotted opto. The slotted opto consists of a transmitter and receiver in a single molded plastic with a slit allowing the beam to be interrupted. The transmitter is infrared and always on. The receiver is a phototransistor with the base exposed that responds to the infrared light falling on it. The higher the intensity of the infrared light the more the phototransistor conducts current. This is why the resistor on the transmitter side is important. The higher the value, the less the intensity and therefore the less the phototransistor will conduct.

The flow of current through the phototransistor affects the voltage. You can think of it as a resistor. The issue is more with the voltage. The comparators on the CPU board compare the voltage. They convert an "analog" signal (voltage between 0V to 12V) to a "digital" signal of either low (0) or high (1). The comparator has a threshold where any voltage lower than the threshold is converted to low and any voltage above the threshold is converted to high. Since the threshold is a single value (point), if the input voltage is close to this threshold it could "pivot" around this and generate either a low or a high depending on which side of the threshold it falls.

This is the reason that TTL defines specific thresholds for low or high. An input low is between 0V to 0.8V and an input high is between 2V to 5V. Anything between 0.8V to 2V is indeterminate. If a comparator has a threshold (for example) of 6V for a 12V circuit then an input low is between 0V and 6V and an input high is between 6V and 12V. If the input hovers between 5.9V and 6.1V then it will pivot between low and high at the frequency it moves back and forth. In this case, it's true that the output is binary (low or high) but would you consider this truly binary (as in the switch is closed or open)? It's really indeterminate from a practical point of view.

So why does cleaning the opto help? It allows more of the infrared light through and increases the intensity of the light falling on the base of the phototransistor and moves the voltage out of the "indeterminate" zone.

#9641 6 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

I debated with myself if I should post hysteresis links or not. The software should really be able to recognize when the opto is inputting way too fast and give an alert. I'm kind of surprised Larry Demar didn't code it in there actually.

The software may indeed do this. I don't know since I haven't looked at the software.

One question does fall out from this though. "How do you deal with the repeated switching from false to not-false (true)?" The software can detect the state and maybe issue a warning or alert but how does that affect game playability but more importantly, money "earnability"? What can the software do to allow the flippers to still operate while the switch is in this indeterminate state? It's not like ignoring or compensating for a non-functioning switch.

I don't profess to having any answers. Like many things in life, you can look at one problem and try to solve it only to find yourself looking at another problem.

#9650 6 months ago

kstairmantis Kerry's products are AWESOME. It will be a sad day if/when he retires.

1 month later
#9677 5 months ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Under the left side of the playfield the proximity sensor for the left return lane , what size IDC connectors attaches to the board?

Both headers (and connector/pins/housings) are 0.100" (2.54mm)

1 month later
#9742 4 months ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

IMHO this is the best way to go as there is literally zero chance this mod will fail unless it's done incorrectly or someone does something stupid.

Something stupid like looking at the manual and seeing that there should be no connection in J108 (despite a warning). Someone will look at the warning and dismiss it. If it can happen then it will happen.

There's nothing wrong with implementing this solution. I'd just advise to keep the playfield tieback wire in place - i.e. implement BOTH left and right wiring diagrams. Add a NEW wire. Do not pull the old wire through the harness. Another wire does not hurt and should be considered insurance.

See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-owners-club/page/185#post-7637228 (posted 5 months ago) which is the same as what I just wrote above.

#9745 4 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Besides whatever tieback option is used I do think it is a good idea to perform the mod on the 8 driver board to add the pull up and pull down resistors on the back of the original boards.

And if you're not comfortable doing this modification to your board then consider
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-owners-club/page/188#post-7663782 as an alternative. It offers an additional header for the tieback diode wire.

It looks like the barakandl board also implements the pull down resistors. It does not offer the header for the tieback diode but this is a board I would recommend. barakandl is a reputable manufacturer/merchant.

If you're looking at the Rottendog WDB008, it looks like that board does NOT implement the pull down resistors. It could be the RN that is visible but since I don't have the schematic, I can't be sure. It seems more likely that the RN is a pull down on the tristate of the IC rather than a pull down on the ribbon header signals. It's the most readily and easily discoverable, but I would not recommend this board if you are looking for a board with the pull down modification.

1 month later
#9837 3 months ago

Now that all the Pinsound noise has died down (I realize that it is relevant to the machine we all love, not everyone uses a Pinsound nor cares about using a Pinsound - perhaps a separate STTNG + Pinsound thread?) and responses to technical issues won't get lost ...

Quoted from fourlights:

when I start a game it kicks out 4 balls.

Quoted from bobukcat:

Once you're sure that's done, do the following:
Remove all the balls via the utility and make sure there are 6.
Go into Switch Level Test and take a picture of the screen.
Then load all six balls and turn on the game, be sure to take note of exactly what happens.

I would load the six balls while still in switch edge (or level) test. The most likely cause is the trough opto transmitter board if it still OEM since those 270 Ohm 2W resistors like to desolder themselves, or they have been poorly repaired in the past.

@fourlights: if you're unsure then post an image of the trough opto transmitter board. It is the green board not the blue one. You can post an image of both if you want.

1 week later
#9942 3 months ago
Quoted from oradke:

If you opt for a new board, you get brand new LEDs and sensors.

Also look for boards that reduce heat dissipation. The OEM transmitter boards use 270 Ohm 2W resistors that get VERY hot. They are known to self de-solder. If preferable, choose a board that implements current limiting resistors in series rather than in parallel.

For STTNG, current limiting resistor circuitry may not matter since the game is probably 100% dependent on all 7 transmitters working. If there is a problem in a parallel implementation then one transmitter will be non-functional. In series implementations, several transmitters will be non-functional but the end result is the same. The game software gets VERY confused. This is especially true in IJ3 where the game deduces ball locks in the idol by the number of balls remaining in the trough.

1 week later
#10002 86 days ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Any one have a list or idea what green LEDs on the board correspond with what Opto on the game?

This is the schematic pin connections. It is the same for every game that uses the 16-opto board since it is the same board used in every game.

00_16-opto_J5_harness_connection.jpg00_16-opto_J5_harness_connection.jpg

Note pins 9 and 10 are labeled "C1" and "C2". These are the columns used for the switches. There are two of them and along with the 8 rows makes a total of 16 switches. C1 opto pairs correspond to LED1-8 and C2 opto pairs correspond to LED9-16.

01_16-opto_J5_harness_connection.jpg01_16-opto_J5_harness_connection.jpg

Consult the manual for the columns used by the game you're interested in. In this case for STTNG, C1=GRN-YEL (col4) and C2=GRN-ORG (col3).

02_sttng_switch_matrix.jpg02_sttng_switch_matrix.jpg

Now go to the switch matrix chart.

  • C1 is indicated by LED1-8 and is col4. Therefore, LED1-8 indicates SW41-SW48.
  • C2 is indicated by LED9-16 and is col3. Therefore, LED9-16 indicates SW31-SW38.

As stated, the above logic applies to any game that uses the 16-opto board.

#10027 80 days ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Removed pin connector J209 for driver board and the ground row short problem disappeared, but cannons cannot find home .

That isolates the issue away from the CPU board.

Now isolate the 16-opto board. Disconnect J5 from the 16-opto board and check to see if the problem goes away. If it does then it isolates the issue to the 16-opto board.

If it does not then disconnect J1 from the 7-ball Trough Phototransistor board and repeat the check. The goal is to isolate as many boards as possible.

Quoted from transprtr4u:

Also the 16 opto board has led light #8 not lit?

This is SW48. It is "Borg Entry". The switch location diagram does not show this switch. It has errors in it. I believe this is the opto pair just after the top diverter before entry into the Borg ship.

#10031 80 days ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Oddly enough disconnected the 2 connectors in pictures attached ...
Rebooted and short is gone.
Did switch test and hand touched all works as should ...
So guessing now that I have a short at the cannons?

sttng_switch_matrix.jpgsttng_switch_matrix.jpg

You report row short for:

  • WHT-RED
  • WHT-GRN
  • WHT-BLU
  • WHT-VIO

Can you see a pattern?

Quoted from transprtr4u:

perhaps a bad diode?

Not likely that ALL FOUR diodes failed at the same time. More likely a single failure of a single common component. See above.

Quoted from transprtr4u:

Oh and light 8 on opto board

What's the issue? I see the LED is illuminated. This is expected behavior. The LED state will change when you block the opto pair.

#10034 80 days ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

I'm seeing the pattern but not really getting if perhaps your saying Q5 is the fault?

I recommend everyone (not just you) read the manual. Almost all the information anyone needs to diagnose problems posted on this forum can be found in the manual. It is ok to not know what the manual means but learning how to understand what the manual is conveying will allow the reader to be able to fix most any problem on their machine.

The reason why I do most of my posting with images from the manual is show the reader how to find the information in the manual.

00_sttng_sw_col9.jpg00_sttng_sw_col9.jpg01_sttng_sw_col9.jpg01_sttng_sw_col9.jpg

Q12 on the 8-Driver Auxiliary board is behaving as a 9th Darlington pair for U20 (ULN2803A) on the CPU board.

#10047 79 days ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Checked the TIPs on the eight driver board, all seem fine , have a spare 8 driver board switched them no change .

If a (TIP102) transistor tests "good" it does not mean that it is "good". If it tests "bad" then it is "bad".

Your description of state is not specific enough. What does "no change" mean?

Your descriptions of what actions you took are ambiguous. There is no clarity in the state.

  • "original" 8-Driver with cannons connected = ground shorts
  • "original" 8-Driver with cannons DISconnected = NO ground shorts
  • "spare" 8-Driver with cannons connected = ?
  • "spare" 8-Driver with cannons DISconnected = ?

Make sure the "spare" 8-Driver is in the "sw9" configuration for TZ/IJ/STTNG and not the "pw" configuration for DM/RS. These boards can only be swapped by checking the configuration is correct.

It is important to be precise with what you did and what your results are since nobody else is in front of the machine and nobody else can see the actual results. Everybody is relying on what you report (in text).

#10066 77 days ago
Quoted from zimzam:

Makes you wonder if the flashers ever really worked well. Glad I found the short, good learning experience.

It probably worked enough that it wasn't obvious.

crimp.jpgcrimp.jpg

There are loose strands that when a male pin has mated with the female pin could push the strands to contact the metal and conduct. It's probably positional but I have no evidence for this conclusion other than image observation and supposition.

#10073 76 days ago
Quoted from zimzam:

For curiousity sake, why would that short in that pin cause numerous flashers to activate at once in test mode, even was happening in the backbox flashers?

It should not. The voltage (supply) comes from J107-5,6 or J106-5. Sometimes, people insert J106-5 into one of the headers at the bottom of the board that are for drives instead of supplies. Depending on which solenoids are allocated for which purpose, it can cause issues where the 50V supply is fed backward to the 20V supply. This provides an errant path of continuity that can group the drives of what would be individual solenoids together. It also typically causes damage to C11 in the long term.

1 week later
#10100 68 days ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

A failed or failing 8-aux board will also cause opto issues as they are column 9 in the switch matrix which goes through that aux board.

This is not strictly correct. The 8-Driver Auxiliary board does provide the strobe for switch column 9 but those switches are not opto pairs. They are microswitches under the playfield. They are used for cannon location not ball presence in the launcher. Ball presence in the launcher is an opto pair controlled and detected through the 16-opto board (switch columns 3 and 4).

Do not confuse cannon location with ball presence.

#10132 65 days ago
Quoted from math08:

Just pulled the 8 Board out, and the back looks pretty bad. Looks like an ugly repair done prior to me getting the game.

00_sttng_upper_diverter_solenoid.jpg00_sttng_upper_diverter_solenoid.jpg

The damaged solenoid is 37 = Under Diverter Top.

01_sttng_solenoid_table.jpg01_sttng_solenoid_table.jpg

The solenoid table shows the drive transistors on the 8-Driver Auxiliary board. The red box shows Q16 for solenoid 37 and Q13 for solenoid 40.

02_sttng_8-driver_auxiliary.jpg02_sttng_8-driver_auxiliary.jpg

This is your board. The red box is Q16. The yellow box is Q13. Since solenoid 37 is damaged, it is likely that Q16 is shorted. There does look to be damage at the emitter leg of the transistor. Q13 has been replaced and whoever replaced it previously removed the through hole with the damaged drive transistor. The repair that you see there is to restore correct electrical continuity to the required points. There may be a potential issue with that yellow jumper wire. It's hard to see since the image is 2D but the wire is connected in 3D. It appears to be shorting two electrically isolated points but this could be an optical illusion based on the 2D/3D nature of the imaging.

I suspect you'll need to replace Q16. You may not need to replace Q13. It depends on whether it works or not. The major concern is that if Q13 needs to be replaced then you will need to restore the correct electrical continuity since the pads and through holes are gone.

When (or if) you replaced Q16 be sure to try your best to not remove the through holes with the drive transistor.

Finally, you can verify the tieback diode wire is correctly in place by measuring continuity from J107-1 on the Power Driver board to J4-1 on the 8-Driver Auxiliary board. The continuity is returned to J4-1 by the small VIO-GRN wire that you see attached to the single lug of solenoid 39 = Top Drop Up.

#10140 64 days ago
Quoted from jadziedzic:

I've had cases where the small ribbon cable leading to the 8-driver board became dislodged (old connectors that lost tension), which will cause some of the controlled circuits (solenoids, flashers) to lock on; I've had this happen on an IJ, an ST:TNG, and a TZ.

This is the reason the pulldown resistor modification exists. If the signals at the ribbon cable header are floating then you will get unpredictable results. The pulldown resistor modification prevents the floating signals by pulling the data bus bit to ground. It is also important the pull the latch clock signal HIGH with a pullup resistor.

See https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Williams_WPC#Auxiliary_8-Driver_Board_Problems for more information.

If you decide to purchase a replacement board then make sure that manufacturer implements this to prevent damage to the board and your machine.

#10142 64 days ago
Quoted from jibmums:

Will those tieback/piggyback boards of yours prevent that?

No. Those boards are to intercept the solenoid supply voltage and provide an alternate path between J107-1 and J4-1. The issue above is a floating digital logic signal on the 8-Driver Auxiliary board. It would be possible to build a small tap board to implement the pulldown on the data bus bits but not the clock signal since the 26-pin connection only has GND and not VCC.

1 week later
#10163 55 days ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

No clue why it wasn’t like this from the factory.

I can think of at least two reasons.

  1. Manufacturing.
  2. Coupling.

Manufacturing: The wire bundles (harnesses) are made in isolation outside the machine. The only strict requirement is that there is an electrical connection between the 50V supply for solenoid(s) and the diode(s) on the 8-Driver Auxiliary associated with the drive transistor(s). Sometimes, finished product shows evidence of the manufacturing process (think belly button).

Coupling: This is keeping associated wires and connections together. Your "modification" has uncoupled the 50V supply from the 8-Driver Auxiliary drive harness as far as connectors goes. Since it looks like you also pulled the VIO-GRN tieback wire back through the harness, it also introduces the possibility that someone may not plug in that new 3-pin connector at J108. Failure to do this will result in a blown drive transistor after the first solenoid (on the 8-Driver Auxiliary) energization. There are multiple reports of people not inserting connectors only to find them behind the board and not visible when reconnecting things. Sometimes, people don't reconnect all the connectors for the testing purposes. The original implementation couples the 50V supply so that removing J107 removes everything in an atomic fashion. Removing J4-1 removes everything in an atomic fashion. Your "modification" has removed the atomic nature of the connection and now both J107 and J108 have to be connected in order for the system to function correctly. IMHO: it's dangerous and opens up unnecessary risk.

#10167 55 days ago
Quoted from monkfe:

I'd guess the connector failed and they went direct to the source

Yep. The wires are still there so it may be superfluous.

7-ball_trough_opto_boards.jpg7-ball_trough_opto_boards.jpg

#10174 55 days ago
Quoted from jibmums:

It's even worse than in the photo. That was my other question a couple days ago, on the original IDC's, gray wire (12v) is looped thru terminal 1 and black (ground) looped thru either terminal 3 or 5. To use a molex, most re-wires I've seen clip the loop and solder the two ends into a "Y" and crimp that end into a single connector. I noticed that header pins 1 and 2 are both 12v, and 3 and 5 are both ground, so rather than do the "Y" with both, I was going to crimp each wire individually and run the grays to 1 and 2 and the blacks to 3 and 5. Just wanted to make sure it was safe to do.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-owners-club/page/180#post-7542011

#10176 54 days ago

Ah. You asked the question. The most important question you can ever ask. Insatiable curiosity is a problem for me. I try hard to spread the "love" (if you want to call it that). If I see something odd, I almost always ask that question and try to think of reasons.

I usually try to explain things using a diagram with the DumbAss magic marker. In this case, it requires a blurb of text since my artistic skill is limited to the magic marker and not drawing or animating. I leave the drawing and animating to zaza.

The linked post is trying to say that what you are planning to do (separate wires at 1,2 and 3,5) is not the same as the original wiring (pass through (parallel) wiring at 1 and 5).

In a nutshell: separate wires converts parallel wiring to series wiring.

The more detailed explanation: the power (or ground) is only continuous when the connector (plug) is inserted into the header (board). The continuity is established through the connection on the board. When you unplug the connector, you break the continuity. This means that any power downstream is broken. The same is true for ground. If you wire it using a pass-through (like the original IDC) or "Y" split, this maintains the parallel wiring and continuity - even if the connector is not inserted into the header.

With that in mind, please go back and look at the linked post (images) again. I hope it makes more sense.

Note that this very same issue is a problem with the flipper cabinet opto wiring in machines that use flipper cabinet opto boards.

#10178 54 days ago
Quoted from jibmums:

What threw me was, the traces on the opto board were also Y-shaped/connected, so from a plugged-in standpoint, the game should work fine. I wasn't thinking at all about an unplugged standpoint.

It's a perfectly normal way to think. A good engineer will think about ALL possible cases, regardless of how likely they are to happen. Almost all bugs in software are from the developer/engineer not thinking about edge cases and how likely they are to happen but rather just thinking through "normal" or "expected" cases. These kinds of bugs lead to security flaws (buffer overflow) or methods of cheating (parameter validation).

1 month later
#10275 23 days ago
Quoted from sllerts:

So there should be a socket on that board. I didn’t notice that when I looked.

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