(Topic ID: 356196)

Stripped Down Stern Pros

By CoachBacca

68 days ago


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There are 86 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 68 days ago

I know this has been done before but I have been considering getting a Stern Pro for my next machine and as I look through some of these games some of them are really stripped down from the Premium/LE versions. After comparing the two games I think that the recent John Wick release is one of the games that is most stripped down. As far as I can tell there is only one real mechanical feature in this game other than the two bash toys in the Newton Ball and the car and at this point those two may as well just be two additional targets. Really the only mechanical feature left over from the premium/LE version and that is the Drop Target leading into the Red Circle Club Area that makes this game unique. The weapons case is still mechanical but it is not left over from the premium version. I know the pro version for Venom is very stripped down as well but my simple question is, has Stern started stripping down the pros too much? I get it, a lot of location sites and operators don't want a lot of things that they have to fix and some people just want to play the game and want as much flow as possible but I feel like some of these games are becoming just the bones of the premium versions and that's the shots. I know Deadpool isn't packed but I feel it kept some of the core features of that game that made it what it is was kept in the game. How much more would it have cost to keep the moving car at least for the pro? Maybe I am a little off with my assessments but I feel like Jaws has at least one of the main mechs in the game and the flipper ball lock and reels are at least main features of the premium game. I think everyone thinks that venom pro was a complete dud because of what was taken out of it but I think John Wick pro might end up being more fun to play and a better game but is just as stripped down as Venom. I guess part of what I am trying to say is that for me the pros are starting to get to the point where not only are they marketed specifically to location play but they are almost becoming to stripped down to keep people from having that one more game feel for location play too, even for people who aren't pinheads.

I am also interested to know what game you guys think is the most stripped down from the premium. This is not a question of the worst pro but the premium that is simply missing too much of what the premium version has. I know Jurassic Park and Godzilla are often part of the "gotta get the premium" conversations because of what the premium versions have in them and how good the games are, but is there another game out there that is missing more from the premium to the pro that you feel makes the pro almost unplayable compared to the premium. To me the only ones that fit the bill right now are Godzilla and Venom. I am really hoping John Wick doesn't fall into the same category

-7
#2 68 days ago

I'd say Venom pro is like a giant toy with nothing going on. John Woke looks slightly better.
IMO GZ pro is better than the premium less stop n go better flow.

#3 68 days ago

This debate will probably never end pro v premium. Judging from historical feedback, most will agree that premiums are more stop and go from the added mechs which appeal to some and annoy others. It also depends on what added features on a premium are a 'must have'. We have had pro and premium versions of most modern Stern games come through our game room, in the end we went with all premiums except IMDN, actually prefer pro.

To each their own. Best pros are probably GDZ, JP, IMDN, DP, Metallica. All keep with the spirit/feel of the game, still have metal ramps and don't feel stripped down. The mod industry help owners of pros spice up their pros to their liking, most mods do the job

SW pro is probably by far the most stripped down from a premium. If it didn't have the Star Wars theme, Stern probably wouldn't have sold 10 of these. Second is Mandalorian pro has the god awful obstructing crossing plastic ramps, just keep the damn wire forms.

#4 68 days ago

If you are going to drop $7k on a NIB pinball machine for the home spend the extra $2500 and get a premium (or buy HUO to save a bit more). Every time I've owned a pro I just think "I'm missing out on something that the premium and LE offers".

The whole "pro's are a faster" argument is outplayed. Of course pro's are faster...there's barely anything in them lol. For $7k that's not something to brag about IMO. Personally I want to buy pinball machines where there's things in the game that move and interact with the ball. The more of that the better. If I wanted a game that just played super fast with no stop and go I would buy an EM.

#5 68 days ago

I think one or two more features included in some of these pros would sell more games though. I get that they want more people buying the premiums but at the same time I would think they would be able to sell more games in general if they just put one or two more additional mechs in the pros to make it more like the premiums you would have more people that would, under what currently feels like standard pro features, just pass up buying the game altogether purchase a pro version of the game instead for a theme or whatever that they might not normally purchase.

I keep going back to Deadpool but I am pretty sure it is one of their most successful pros. It has the two main features of the premium in it being the Katana ball lock and the lil' Deadpool drop bank and bash toy area. I am not saying they have to include all the main mechs on every game but at least one of the ones that make it stand out.

#6 68 days ago

Wick Pro looks stripped because it is. Premium isn't exactly loaded either. Drifting car bash toy is the only interesting mech on the whole thing so of course Stern couldn't let Pro owners get that or the other 2 boring mechs, ball lock, drop target etc.

#7 68 days ago
Quoted from CoachBacca:

I think one or two more features included in some of these pros would sell more games though. I get that they want more people buying the premiums but at the same time I would think they would be able to sell more games in general if they just put one or two more additional mechs in the pros to make it more like the premiums you would have more people that would, under what currently feels like standard pro features, just pass up buying the game altogether purchase a pro version of the game instead for a theme or whatever that they might not normally purchase.

It used to be like that. Take John Wick for example. The moving car type toy used to act the same way across all game models. There was always still one "big" toy that would be included across all models. Not anymore.

Stern has gone away from this over the past years. Now it's $7k for ramps and orbits...Maybe Stern includes a drop target or two.

#8 68 days ago

Since they doubled the price increments between the models at the end of the pandemic and overall shots are the new toys mentality it became really simple for me. Pro or no.

#9 68 days ago
Quoted from CoachBacca:

I think one or two more features included in some of these pros would sell more games though. I get that they want more people buying the premiums but at the same time I would think they would be able to sell more games in general if they just put one or two more additional mechs in the pros to make it more like the premiums you would have more people that would, under what currently feels like standard pro features, just pass up buying the game altogether purchase a pro version of the game instead for a theme or whatever that they might not normally purchase.

That is the whole point. They want you to buy premium. If they included a lot more features, more people would buy the pro more.

15
#10 68 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

If you are going to drop $7k on a NIB pinball machine for the home spend the extra $2500 and get a premium. Every time I've owned a pro I just think "I'm missing out on something that the premium and LE offers".
The whole "pro's are a faster" argument is outplayed. Of course pro's are faster...there's barely anything in them. For $7k that's not something to brag about IMO lol.

Completely 1000% disagree!! You're telling me to spend an extra 2500 for extra features that don't really change up the game significantly & also aren't 100% reliable like sarcophagus lock & the switches used for the captive balls in Maiden GTFOH. Sorry I value my money & work hard for it I'm not wasting it on a gimmick/feature that I'll get sick of seeing after three months anyways on top of having to constantly dial it in. Same thing with stranger things big deal a projector but it doesn't really change the layout. The only time its really worth it is when it changes the shot layout like Rush, ACDC etc.

#11 68 days ago
Quoted from CoachBacca:

Really the only mechanical feature left over from the premium/LE version and that is the Drop Target leading into the Red Circle Club Area that makes this game unique.

Um... They took that out too. To me that seems like the pinnacle of feature stripping -- they couldn't give the Pro one measly drop target?

#12 68 days ago

Pro's have plastic Aprons...I just cant live with that! Joking aside, Every Pro I've played just seems lacking to me when compared to the premium. For me, premium only as I want the full game since I am buying for my home.

#13 68 days ago
Quoted from acedanger:

Completely 1000% disagree!! You're telling me to spend an extra 2500 for extra features that don't really change up the game significantly & also aren't 100% reliable like sarcophagus lock & the switches used for the captive balls in Maiden GTFOH. Sorry I value my money & work hard for it I'm not wasting it on a gimmick/feature that I'll get sick of seeing after three months anyways on top of having to constantly dial it in. Same thing with stranger things big deal a projector but it doesn't really change the layout. The only time its really worth it is when it changes the shot layout like Rush, ACDC etc.

Disagree (as those extra features create a better world under glass and actually interact with the ball) but cool. Then what are you getting for $7k? $1k per ramp and orbit I guess. How's that showing value but a few extra features for $2500 more isn't? These games are expensive regardless of model.

#14 68 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Ok cool. Then what are getting for $7k? $1k per ramp and orbit I guess.

Shot layout is exactly the same on Maiden!! The pro is amazing I could of gotten the premium but chose not too don't take it personal Duke!

#15 68 days ago
Quoted from acedanger:

Shot layout is exactly the same on Maiden!! The pro is amazing I could of gotten the premium but chose not too don't take it personal Duke!

Yeah still a great game, pro's are fun.

#16 68 days ago
Quoted from EternitytoM83:

Um... They took that out too. To me that seems like the pinnacle of feature stripping -- they couldn't give the Pro one measly drop target?

Wow, I just saw the area for it on the playfield and figured it was there. In this case then it is literally just the shots on the pro. Orbits and ramps, that's all you get here. To me then this becomes the single most stripped down machine. At least Venom has the Carnage mech.

#17 68 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yeah still a great game, pro's are fun.

The design on Maiden premiums suck balls & constantly need to be fixed from what I''ve read. So it's nice to not have to deal with as much mechanical stuff breaking down. I just play & have fun I don't have to constant dick around with it.

#18 68 days ago
Quoted from acedanger:

I'd say Venom pro is like a giant toy with nothing going on. John Woke looks slightly better.
IMO GZ pro is better than the premium less stop n go better flow.

Imo...Nothing on Godzilla pro. Probably last pro to buy.

#19 68 days ago
Quoted from zaki:

Imo...Nothing on Godzilla pro. Probably last pro to buy.

Ya because seeing the building go up down a hundred times is extremely entertaining & never gets old.

#20 68 days ago

Stern pro 2030 prototype whitewood. It plays fast! None of that stupid stop and go stuff.

whitewood (1) (resized).jpgwhitewood (1) (resized).jpg

-6
#21 68 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Stern pro 2030 prototype whitewood. It plays fast! None of that stupid stop and go stuff.
[quoted image]

Just stupid not clever... I get it you have money that you can carelessly piss away on gimmicks Let me get GOTG because those groot hands and extra magnets are totally worth an extra 2500 what dunces. Everyday I'm convinced that the vast majority that fill up this hobby are incompetent trust fund babies.

#22 68 days ago

I'm perfectly happy with most Pros - including my current GZ, Maiden, and MET. They're fun as hell. At current prices I have a hard time justifying the extra cost for a Premium, certainly for NIB.

If you can justify the nearly 40% additional cost for a few features, by all means go premium. They have more features and are almost always better. How much better a given Premium is will of course be debatable. It's only the rarest of examples that are truly better as Pros.

But Pros are awesome machines for the price point imo.

#23 68 days ago
Quoted from acedanger:

Completely 1000% disagree!! You're telling me to spend an extra 2500 for extra features that don't really change up the game significantly & also aren't 100% reliable like sarcophagus lock & the switches used for the captive balls in Maiden GTFOH. Sorry I value my money & work hard for it I'm not wasting it on a gimmick/feature that I'll get sick of seeing after three months anyways on top of having to constantly dial it in. Same thing with stranger things big deal a projector but it doesn't really change the layout. The only time its really worth it is when it changes the shot layout like Rush, ACDC etc.

This is the way.

Really happy and just fine with my IMDN and Bond Pros. Not missing a thing. On the same token, really happy with my GZ Prem, too.

You're just not giving up much when you go Pro most of the time and despite missing doodads and gadgets you end up with a better value on the machine.

#24 68 days ago

The John Wick 4 Pin is an empty stripped down mess.

If you told me the designers had never seen or actively watched the movies, I would believe you. It shows. Badly.

I have not seen this level of apathy and disconnect from Stern when it comes to theme.
LZ also comes to mind.

Regarding the pro vs premium and how stripped down they are…
Seems they could be back to the 2008-2012 era of Stripped down pins.

#25 68 days ago

I'm a "Pro" guy. I tend to find more value in the Pro models, and I normally end up liking playing the Pro models more than the Premiums. So that does taint my opinion.

Stern runs at about 30% for me. I like about 30% of the games, and I hate about 50% of the games. The other 20% is just games that are OK, and I'll play on location, but would never want to own.

The Pro model has always been stripped, and it is just a matter of how much they yank out to make the Pro. I don't miss them normally. I have GZ Pro, and I have Deadpool Pro. Some people might call them stripped down, but I think they are perfect the way they are. I enjoy playing them. Same with Metallica... some people ask how I could like the game without the hammer, when I thought the hammer was in the way of seeing well.

I always want flow over stop and go. If Stern offers me a game with or without an upper playfield, I will take the one without it, every time.

Overall, I don't care how much Stern strips down the Pro games. All I care about is the game play of the individual game. Deadpool doesn't bug me because it is stripped down, I love Deadpool because of how well it plays! I don't like Venom, because I don't find it fun (I find it boring). All that matters to me is gameplay.

#26 68 days ago
Quoted from CoachBacca:

I think one or two more features included in some of these pros would sell more games though. I get that they want more people buying the premiums but at the same time I would think they would be able to sell more games in general if they just put one or two more additional mechs in the pros to make it more like the premiums you would have more people that would, under what currently feels like standard pro features, just pass up buying the game altogether purchase a pro version of the game instead for a theme or whatever that they might not normally purchase.
I keep going back to Deadpool but I am pretty sure it is one of their most successful pros. It has the two main features of the premium in it being the Katana ball lock and the lil' Deadpool drop bank and bash toy area. I am not saying they have to include all the main mechs on every game but at least one of the ones that make it stand out.

This won’t make the games earn more though. And that’s #1 for Pro games or any game really. Increase the prices of them (will happen with more mechs), ROI takes longer.

#27 68 days ago
Quoted from acedanger:

The design on Maiden premiums suck balls & constantly need to be fixed from what I''ve read. So it's nice to not have to deal with as much mechanical stuff breaking down. I just play & have fun I don't have to constant dick around with it.

All of the premiums/LEs I've owned have been completely reliable with many plays and no breakdowns at all. As far as dialing in a new premium game that's typically pretty easy if it even needs to be done at all. I never buy pros only premiums and when guest come over and play the games they always love and comment about all of the moving mechanisms and that they had no idea how intricate and fun the new pinball machines are.
Pros really lack the pizazz of the premiums. I can see why operators have them if they want to save money and maximize profits but in a home environment. No way.

#28 68 days ago
Quoted from shelby1000:

All of the premiums/LEs I've owned have been completely reliable with many plays and no breakdowns at all. As far as dialing in a new premium game that's typically pretty easy if it even needs to be done at all. I never buy pros only premiums and when guest come over and play the games they always love and comment about all of the moving mechanisms and that they had no idea how intricate and fun the new pinball machines are.
Pros really lack the pizazz of the premiums. I can see why operators have them if they want to save money and maximize profits but in a home environment. No way.

wow. What an amazing story!!! I think I need to change my pants now.

#29 68 days ago

I think John wick is one of the worst strip downs. Multiple shots that get blocked and change play.

I prefer godzilla pro and jaws pro, but I think I would lean towards premium for wick due to the shot interaction.

#30 68 days ago

There really is only one answer.

You have to play it yourself.

Nobody else is going to properly evaluate this orange vs this mandarin orange. One is cheaper. They are different things. ONLY you can value them according to your personal experience.

Some people prefer small mandarin oranges. Some people want a big juicy orange and will pay a premium for it.

I ranted a bit on the last pro/premium thread about this (It was about Jaws).

OP, if you are interested, the link is here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-jaws-pro-vs-premium/page/2#post-8158867

#31 68 days ago

There's a simple rule regarding Pros and pretty much all the comments above back it up...

The older the Pro the better the Pro. The newer the Pro the more stripped down is the Pro.

It basically follows the same pattern of Stern generally reducing BoM across the board.

From Godzilla backwards it seems like they designed the Pro then ADDED stuff. Now it seems like they design the Premium then completely neuter the Pro by REMOVING stuff. It seems like a completely different philosophy.

All the Pros people love or tolerate are from GZ back. All the newer ones people mostly hate.

#32 68 days ago

Sometimes I feel like the conversation at Stern must of gone like this...

Wow! We sold a lot of Godzillas..

But man...we didn't make as much profit as we expected...that game is packed!

Let's not do THAT again...

#33 68 days ago

I'll never understand why someone would want to watch or sit and wait for whatever the games mechanical gimmick happens to be for the the 100th or 500th time. And you'll never understand why I don't want all the cool stuff. It's fine.

-3
#34 68 days ago

I bet all these cool owners of premiums are the same suckers that run and buy all new stereo/TV equipment every time technology changes from 4K to 8K etc. to get the "FULL EXPERIENCE!!!"

#35 68 days ago

Well you got one thing right Ace….”cool owners of premiums”! Damn right it’s cool to have premiums!

#36 68 days ago
Quoted from John-Floyd:

Well you got one thing right Ace….”cool owners of premiums”! Damn right it’s cool to have premiums!

I've owned premiums Jersey jack games & honestly the experience was very similar. It's cool for a spell; but like anything it gets fucking old after a bit
the jury is still out on wether or not it makes you "cool" but whatever helps you feel better about you is what counts.

#37 68 days ago

The gameplay experiences tend to be similar, and I really don't understand the griping. In general, a premium is way cooler, but a pro will do. Look at the recent games!

Bond - pro is as good as prem
Foo - pro plays as good as prem. Prem is just way cooler
Venom - game blows either way
Jaws - they both play the same

This is pinball in 2024. You want to spend $7k? Great, a pro is the best you are going to find in pinball. If you want more crap, you can pay more.

You want to stick it to Stern? Buy a BBQ or Ninja, that'll show 'em!

#38 68 days ago
Quoted from acedanger:

I bet all these cool owners of premiums are the same suckers that run and buy all new stereo/TV equipment every time technology changes from 4K to 8K etc. to get the "FULL EXPERIENCE!!!"

I can totally respect that if they actually use it. But, for pins at least, it sure seems like there are a lot of HUO Premiums/LE's for sale with play counts that I would exceed in the first week in my home.

#39 68 days ago

For modern sterns have played all levels and for value prop its Pro all the way.

In my collection:
FF- don’t care for upper PF
IMDN-covered here a lot- my fave game of all time as pro
Bond-keeps getter better and better

Next up is DP pro

I have some older games with mechs and eclectic tastes
Data East, Bally widebody, system 11 and a JJP LE (great value and has new code as of yesterday)

My stern pros, knock on wood, not ONE problem since unboxing.

#40 68 days ago
Quoted from jitneystand1:

I can totally respect that if they actually use it. But, for pins at least, it sure seems like there are a lot of HUO Premiums/LE's for sale with play counts that I would exceed in the first week in my home.

I've never understood that either LE's with 23 plays on it WTF you're selling it & didn't even break her in proper.

#41 68 days ago

I honestly can't remember the last time I looked at a Stern release and said to myself "WOW that's a full featured, loaded out game". Perhaps Godzilla. and you know what? GZ is one of the best games released in the last decade. This is what happens when careful consideration and effort goes into a fully featured game IMO. But we all know that fully featured doesn't mean it will be a good game.. and hence, that's where most people that defend fully featured games hang their hat on to defend stripped out games. And of course, because pinball is fun, then stripped out can be fun too. Yep, it's all good to overpay for a stripped out game now to some.

Unfortunately, there's a comfortable sales level that Stern is willing to go with that includes not putting much into the games. Think of it this way- the massive price hikes over the past 2 years were to pump more profit into the company because it could. Well, stripped out games are cheaper to produce and also create more money, which is the ONLY objective at this point.. just look at the threads, no matter what pinball enthusiasts don't like, there's a steady bunch of defenders, people calling them whiners, etc., that displace any potential for those concerns to be more visible and/or valid. I've often wondered, to what benefit is there for someone to defend stripped out games instead of wanting more in a game? Are these fake accounts or people that are gaslighting those that think these games are stripped (especially when they are paying $10,000 for one). I'm not sure.. but if you look at the comment section of anything that's open to the public (youtube, news articles to mention a few), you will indeed see extremely disturbing opinions, posts, whacky support for things that make no sense. This is what the internet is.

I now vote with my wallet, but I know that will never be enough.... The reason these pinball companies are the way they are is they don't need my money anymore, they have new buyers that are willing to snap everything up and as we see here, defend EVERYTHING they do. We are not allowed to be critical or talk about what any of the pinball companies (mostly Stern) didn't do, because, again, pinball is fun and how dare you not like something Stern did!!

#42 68 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The gameplay experiences tend to be similar, and I really don't understand the griping. In general, a premium is way cooler, but a pro will do. Look at the recent games!
Bond - pro is as good as prem
Foo - pro plays as good as prem. Prem is just way cooler
Venom - game blows either way
Jaws - they both play the same
This is pinball in 2024. You want to spend $7k? Great, a pro is the best you are going to find in pinball. If you want more crap, you can pay more.
You want to stick it to Stern? Buy a BBQ or Ninja, that'll show 'em!

I strongly feel this thread is in desperate need of another completely useless poll.

#43 68 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The gameplay experiences tend to be similar, and I really don't understand the griping. In general, a premium is way cooler, but a pro will do. Look at the recent games!
Bond - pro is as good as prem
Foo - pro plays as good as prem. Prem is just way cooler
Venom - game blows either way
Jaws - they both play the same
This is pinball in 2024. You want to spend $7k? Great, a pro is the best you are going to find in pinball. If you want more crap, you can pay more.
You want to stick it to Stern? Buy a BBQ or Ninja, that'll show 'em!

There you go again, someone talking about their observation on a pinball forum, talking about pinball, IS "GRIPING".

How about just talking about a subject instead of being critical of the person talking about the subject?

#44 68 days ago

What kills me is when there's a certain feature that really helps with game play on thr Premium but not the Pro.

Looking at you, walker bombs on TWD and Raptor gate on JP.

#45 68 days ago

Pro better than Premium:
GOTG, TMNT, IMDN, BKSOR, Stranger Things (TK lock, unfortunately because the screen is cool), Ghostbusters, Game of Thrones, TWD

Good Pro but Premium is def an Upgrade:
Foo, Bond, AIQ, JP, GZ, Kiss, MET, Star Trek, X-Men, Tron, Jaws, Rush, Munsters, DP

Don’t bother with the Pro:
Star Wars, LZ, AC/DC, Mando, Avengers (2012)

And while those are my opinions, I’d never begrudge someone who wants the fancy version with more features. All pinball is pretty awesome!

#46 68 days ago

Everything gets old after a bit. But in all seriousness, I went and played a foo pro for example, and the plastic pieces for the overlord and van just make the game look cheap to me and I also missed the upper playfield and pop up ball saver post tremendously. Add in the plastic apron and the overall package just didn’t suit my taste after owning a premium.
Now is it worth the extra cash? that’s 100% personal preference and completely up to the buyer. Different tiers to suit different tastes and I’m all OK with that.
Most importantly, pinball is just too damn expensive these days regardless of which tier one chooses!

#47 68 days ago

.

#48 68 days ago

Stern Pros are often a good illustration on how less is better in Pinball

#49 68 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

Stern Pros are often a good illustration on how less is better in Pinball

Or how little they really put into "premium" mechs. Lets face it, if they really designed cool mechs, they WOULD make a difference and you should want them for the price.

#50 68 days ago
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:

There you go again, someone talking about their observation on a pinball forum, talking about pinball, IS "GRIPING".
How about just talking about a subject instead of being critical of the person talking about the subject?

And there you go again, begging me for attention.

You are following me around from thread to thread with beef now?

Also stop posting, you aren't a loser and have way too much of a life to be posting about pinball on a pinball forum, remember?

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