Strikes and Spares, Bally. Various probs

Quoted from stoptap:
Are you on Pinballinfo the UK pinball forum Ed_209 ?

Yes, it's where I got my machine last summer. I've found this forum easier to post on and the archive is really easy to search here too. I'm on it as ed209 and my avatar is Jack Burton from Big Trouble in little China

#53 4 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from Quench:
First picture, the green capacitor on that switch has been cut off because it's likely faulty/shorted. The game will operate without it, but quick ball hits on that target will sometimes be missed. For your sanity it's a good idea to install a new capacitor and probably a good idea to replace them all on the other switches since they commonly fail.
They are a 0.047uF ceramic disk capacitor.
Second picture, the bunched up red-green and blue wires are for a centre coin chute switch. Ditto that loose blue wire in your hand which should actually be connected to that blue wire in the bunch. Your game doesn't have the centre coin chute fitted, so best to just make sure there's no exposed end wires (tape them up separately or put small heatshrink over the ends). Note the two red-green wires in that bunch need to be connected together because that wire daisy chains to the next coin chute switch.
Third picture, that green wire is solenoid 43 volt power for that small coil which is used for locking out the coin chutes. When that coin lockout coil is off (i.e. the game is powered off or has reached maximum credits), any coins dropped should be rejected. Coins should only be accepted when the game is able to process them.
There is supposed to be some insulation paper between the back of the coil where the two lugs are the metal coin door frame to prevent that green wire from shorting to ground and blowing fuses. If you reconnect that green wire, pay attention to making sure those coil lugsare isolated and have no way of touching the metal frame. If you leave that green wire disconnected, make sure to cover the end with tape.

Great, thanks Quench. Maybe this could be the short I've got going on. Thanks again

#54 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Hey all, I got the old socket off and have taken a photograph of the board where it was attached. Some of the contacts (if that's the right word) look a little discoloured, should I rub them with some scothbrite or wire wool?

Aside from that I think I'm good to go soldering on the new socket... which does look a little difficult but I'll have a good crack at it.

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#55 3 years ago

A S

stoptap

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Clean the solder pads with one of these and then with some isopropanol alcohol.

ebay.com link: 0

#56 3 years ago

PIP

Quench

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
I got the old socket off

Excellent job! no damaged pads/tracks

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
should I rub them with some scothbrite or wire wool?

Yes those pads need to be cleaned to bright copper so solder will properly attach. Use some flux if you have any to help the solder.

#57 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from stoptap:
Clean the solder pads with one of these and then with some isopropanol alcohol.
ebay.com link

Great, thank you. I bought the pen. Now for the alcohol!

#58 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from Quench:
Excellent job! no damaged pads/tracks

Yes those pads need to be cleaned to bright copper so solder will properly attach. Use some flux if you have any to help the solder.

I will order some flux, cheers!

1 week later

#59 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Had a go soldering the socket on for the U8 On the MPU tonight. So bloody small! I think I need a magnifying glass! I took a photo on my phone just to see what I did and it looks okay. Some solder seems to have bridged two pins, will that be a problem? I have some of that funky alcohol I got recommended by you, should I wipe that area down with it after soldering too?

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#60 3 years ago

237

slochar

Pinside member

7y 86,550 6,869

Yes, clean the flux off with alcohol afterwards. Bridged connections on pads that share a trace are ok, but it looks like most of your points have too much solder on them and the solder meniscus isn't correct - what temperature are you soldering at and are you using lead free solder?

Do you have a scrap PCB to practice soldering on? Are you putting the iron tip to the pad and connection and bringing the solder to the connection or are you trying some kind of put the solder on the tip then bringing the tip to the joint? (That second way is incorrect BTW).

#61 3 years ago

???

Mombo-number-5

Pinside apprentice

Shoreview, MN

5y 14,400 77

Quoted from slochar:
Sounds like it's time to go through the entire game one board at a time and get each up to snuff. (see pinwiki.com in the bally/stern section).
Basically, rebuild the rectifier board first, get that solid, then do the solenoid driver board, then the mpu, finally the lamp board.
The only things I can think of in the head that could produce such a bang like that are the 2 large capacitors on the solenoid driver board C23 and C26.... they're over 40 years old if they're original, eventually all the electrolyte evaporates.
Simple things first as well, did you smell anything when it went bang? Make sure nothing metal/conductive fell into the transformer.... transformers are really reliable, but don't take kindly to having outputs/inputs shorted.
Personally I replace the rectifier board now in every single bally/stern I'm working on as they are cheap (I buy the kit from Weebly's and build it up myself) and rebuilding original vs. just replacing with new is so much easier (you don't have to deal with hammered 40+ year old traces/connections). The 323 regular is pretty reliable, and I'll evaluate the caps on the solenoid driver board with a scope to see the AC ripple, anything over 1/3 of a volt or so I replace. These parts are relatively cheap as well.... you start to get into expensive costs when you have to replace the back boards (SDB, MPU) with new. Used originals can be had in various states of repair as well, and it is helpful to have a spare set to swap around when you are fixing/testing things.
Whatever you do, keep in mind that as you are testing things, they might go boom again, this time with your head/hands around.... not good.

Yes, Yes , Yes, Just sliding the connectors on and off one of the NVRAM rectifier boards with ease makes replacing those feel like a must. That and getting rid of all that grubby, crusty, hacked on, (border line) under powered crap in one fell swope, goodbye to those future headackes for only 35 bucks. NVRAM are Built to a healthier standard and arranged better IMO than the originals. Also, in home use it won't be used anywhere near as much as the original was.

#62 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from slochar:
Yes, clean the flux off with alcohol afterwards. Bridged connections on pads that share a trace are ok, but it looks like most of your points have too much solder on them and the solder meniscus isn't correct - what temperature are you soldering at and are you using lead free solder?
Do you have a scrap PCB to practice soldering on? Are you putting the iron tip to the pad and connection and bringing the solder to the connection or are you trying some kind of put the solder on the tip then bringing the tip to the joint? (That second way is incorrect BTW).

Great, yes. I aimed to heat the pad and the connection first with the solder iron and then introduce the solder. Then remove the solder iron. I was soldering at 350 celsius which is what I found online for board work. The solder wire was 0.8 mm 22 swg 60/40 Tin lead Solder Wire I got off eBay. I've wiped up the flux with the alcohol and hope to fire it up tomorrow and see what happens. I DID find a loose lamp wiggling about under the playfield and I have tried putting some solder to keep it in place (

) but it seems hard to get the solder to stick - I was thinking that wiggly lamp under the play field could be what's causing the trouble as none of the lamps on the ground wire connected it as well work either. So next up will be putting it together, firing up the machine - somewhere in this thread I remember reading about what connectors to put in first - I will read through it and then start using my multimeter to read off the voltages at the various test points I can find. Thanks again everyone, starting to feel like I am making progress again.

#63 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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New U8 and socket installed and able to run test button again.

And I was able to fire it up to play!

Still need to sort solenoids 13,14. Although solenoid 13 is the coin lockout which I've got disconnected. Not sure what solenoid 14 'K1 relay' is though. 26 is up on the switch test and from running the ball over the pins on the playfield I can see the 6,9 and 10 pin switches arent responding. Still need to get the old rusted leveller off and sort the angle. Player 3 score is twitchy... but man! I am over the moon! Its great to have it working even this much!

#64 3 years ago

PIP

Quench

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
And I was able to fire it up to play!

Congrats!

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
Not sure what solenoid 14 'K1 relay' is though.

It's the flipper enable relay which is on the solenoid driver board in the backbox, you should hear it click on and off at test #14 of solenoid test mode. The fact your flippers work in game says the relay is working.

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
26 is up on the switch test

Switch #26 is the number 9 pin star rollover button. If that switch is gapped properly, it might be a shorted capacitor on the switch.

#65 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from Quench:
Congrats!

It's the flipper enable relay which is on the solenoid driver board in the backbox, you should hear it click on and off at test #14 of solenoid test mode. The fact your flippers work in game says the relay is working.

Switch #26 is the number 9 pin star rollover button. If that switch is gapped properly, it might be a shorted capacitor on the switch.

Thanks! Again I couldnt have done this without all your help and I'm hoping this thread can help others in the future.

I'm going throw swapping bulbs that were out but it seems now I'm testing the bulbs with a battery they do work. I've marked all the lamps that have good bulbs that aren't firing in play on the plug connectors diagram (i was hoping all the dud ones were on the same connector) but alas they seem to be lamps across both j1 and j3. Not sure what could make these specific lamps not work? Attached a screen grab of the lamp test. My marked diagram of the non working lamps and the plug connection diagram.

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#66 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Ha! I just found a link Quench posted 3 years ago to someone with a similar problem - I am off to look at: https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Failed_Lamp_SCRs

#67 3 years ago

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Quench

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With the number of lamps out, it's unlikely (although not impossible) to be a bunch of faulty SCRs.
Test the lamps locally at the socket. Hook up a wire to ground, touch the other end of the wire on the lamp socket lug that has the individual colored wire. If the lamp doesn't light, the problem is local to the lamp/socket. If it lights then the issue is upstream with cabling or the lamp driver board.

Just a reminder, your chimes are hooked up incorrectly so the welcome tune on power up sounds out of tune.

#68 3 years ago

A S

stoptap

Pinside member

Make sure you turn off the game before you start cleaning out any lamp sockets.

#69 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Spoke too soon. Just went to fire it up to read off test point voltages and I got one flash mpu flash. I had a fiddle with some connectors I'd unplugged and I'm back to two mpu flashes. I'm hoping my shoddy soldering on the new U8 socket is what's the problem. I'll take it off later and try and resolder it a bit better.

#70 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Nope. Resoldered the socket and no luck with U8. What can make U8 5101 SRAM fail? Is there a way to test it with a multimeter?

#71 3 years ago

AMR

BigAl56

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Palatine, IL

7y 64,800 1,654

It's almost always a bad trace on the board. You could try replacing the chip with NVram.

#72 3 years ago

GPE

G-P-E

GPE

Omaha, NE

13y 76,800 2,778 4

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
Nope. Resoldered the socket and no luck with U8. What can make U8 5101 SRAM fail? Is there a way to test it with a multimeter?

At this point - I would suspect a plated through hole at U8. This is where the soldered pad on bottom of board does not make contact with the pad/traces on the top of board. Or a broken trace underneath U8.
With practice - you can solder the pins both top and bottom of board if you use a machined pin socket.

#73 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from BigAl56:
It's almost always a bad trace on the board. You could try replacing the chip with NVram.

Hi Big Al, Yeah I looked into it but I can't seem to get the NVRAM 5101 chip here in the UK right now.

#74 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from G-P-E:
At this point - I would suspect a plated through hole at U8. This is where the soldered pad on bottom of board does not make contact with the pad/traces on the top of board. Or a broken trace underneath U8.
With practice - you can solder the pins both top and bottom of board if you use a machined pin socket.

Hi GPE, I soldered on a 22 pin socket and put the new 5101 into that, what confuses me was the machine was up and running and turned off and on a dozen times and was working - so I'm leaning to think it wasn't a bad trace. The 5101 did fall out of the socket at some point when I was screwing the screws that hold the MPU board back in place, but I can't remember if that was before or after it stopped working. I've ordered some more 5101's as we can get them in the UK quite easily and will take it from there. I'm hopeful that this isn't a big issue as it was working with the new socket and 5101. The only thing I'm worried about is if the 5101 is failing because of some issue on the machine, but I can't seem to find anything online about that. Thanks again gang!

1 week later

#75 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Strike! So the new 5101 ram arrived and I popped it in the U8 socket on the MPU board and hey presto. It lives! Still lights out here and there. I bought a wire with clips on to clip to ground to test the out bulbs like you mentioned above. Will also go through the various TPs on the boards. Somewhere I saved a link to a website that has them as they are a ballache to read off the schematics in the manual.

It works and I had a super easy game as the new levelers aren't on yet! Thanks everyone.

2 weeks later

#76 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Hey All, so 96% of the lamps are all working but having trouble with Switch 26 - one of my rollover targets was getting stuck on, so I looked online and it said to clip the capacitor. I did it and hey presto - no more phantom scoring and the switch no longer stuck closed. The game played but it rarely registered hits unless they were super direct... which is no good.

New capacitors arrived and I soldered one onto the rollover target that is not always triggering (seriously you need three hands for it!) and I fired it up and now the phantom scoring is back and its stuck closed again. So I clipped the capacitor again and now back where I was before.

Two questions if you please:

1. Could I have soldered the capacitor onto the switch the wrong way round? Is that a thing?

2. I ordered 10 capacitors, should I try to solder another one on? (I hope not as its a nightmare, although I have just read that tinning both ends you want to connect is the way to go).

#77 3 years ago

237

slochar

Pinside member

7y 86,550 6,869

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
(I hope not as its a nightmare, although I have just read that tinning both ends you want to connect is the way to go).

You should wrap one of the legs of the cap around the switch lug before soldering.

I know everyone seems to do the tin and touch method of soldering parts nowadays (even manufacturers) but the old school way was to make a solid mechanical connection between the parts and the solder holds that in place and makes the electrical connection solid.

If the lead isn't long enough for your connection point use mechanical means of holding it in place like an alligator clip, forceps, or even a clothespin. There's actually a cheat for replacing the switch caps as well, you cut the old one off near the body and now you have a nice lead there you can bend into a loop, bend your new cap's leads into a similar loop, and interlock them for soldering. This only works if the original lead isn't really tarnished though.

#78 3 years ago

ACE

pinzrfun

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Belleville, MI

11y 90,300 4,305 20

Quoted from slochar:
There's actually a cheat for replacing the switch caps as well, you cut the old one off near the body and now you have a nice lead there you can bend into a loop, bend your new cap's leads into a similar loop, and interlock them for soldering.

I did something similar when i lost the displays on Night Rider, which are controlled by 4 diodes on the rectifier board. I identified the bad one, but rather than try to de-solder the 40+ year old component, I snipped the legs at the diode itself and soldered the new legs to the old. Worked like a charm and no risk of lifting traces etc.... Technically probably a hack, but I'll take it.

#79 3 years ago

AMR

BigAl56

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Palatine, IL

7y 64,800 1,654

We started tack soldering at Bally when we learned bending the diode or capacitor wire created a stress point that would fracture over time. The gals on the assembly lines got very good at soldering the caps and diodes first then tacking on the switch wires by soldering them an instant before the solder fully melts.

If your having trouble tacking on the caps try clipping an alligator clip onto it's wires to act as a heat sink so the extended heat from the soldering gun will not take out the cap.

#80 3 years ago

???

Ed_209

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Quoted from slochar:
You should wrap one of the legs of the cap around the switch lug before soldering.
I know everyone seems to do the tin and touch method of soldering parts nowadays (even manufacturers) but the old school way was to make a solid mechanical connection between the parts and the solder holds that in place and makes the electrical connection solid.
If the lead isn't long enough for your connection point use mechanical means of holding it in place like an alligator clip, forceps, or even a clothespin. There's actually a cheat for replacing the switch caps as well, you cut the old one off near the body and now you have a nice lead there you can bend into a loop, bend your new cap's leads into a similar loop, and interlock them for soldering. This only works if the original lead isn't really tarnished though.

Thanks slochar ! yes, when I was first trying to solder on the cap the switch wire came loose from the metal tab as the solder holding them melted as well and I did see a hole on the metal tab, so I should shove the wires through that right? Is it a problem if the wires to the switch and the capacitor are in direct contact? Or is that the whole point? If not I can try the clipping idea nearer to the cap and trying again, I have 10 caps so hopefully one will work!

Quoted from BigAl56:
We started tack soldering at Bally when we learned bending the diode or capacitor wire created a stress point that would fracture over time. The gals on the assembly lines got very good at soldering the caps and diodes first then tacking on the switch wires by soldering them an instant before the solder fully melts.
If your having trouble tacking on the caps try clipping an alligator clip onto it's wires to act as a heat sink so the extended heat from the soldering gun will not take out the cap.

Thanks BigAl56 yes, it took me a while to do it... my first go! so you know I probably fried that switch with the soldering iron anyway!

Thank you pinzrfun I also got some spare diodes but from what I read it seems to be the capacitor that's the issue, I could try swapping the diode too maybe?

Thanks all, I couldn't have done this without you and the forum.

#81 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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I've soldered on a 3rd capacitor and again when in play its scoring constantly. The only time it doesn't score is when I press the switch down. Could it be the switch wires have been soldered on the wrong tabs? Like the opposite they should be?

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#82 3 years ago

PIP

Quench

Pinside member

What value capacitors are you using? Can you post a capacitor picture showing the markings?

If you take the ball out of the machine and put the game in switch test mode (press the little red button inside the coin door 4 times), what switch number do you see on the displays?

#83 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from Quench:
What value capacitors are you using? Can you post a capacitor picture showing the markings?
If you take the ball out of the machine and put the game in switch test mode (press the little red button inside the coin door 4 times), what switch number do you see on the displays?

The capacitors I ordered were these: https://pinparts.co.uk/products/switch-capacitor-for-early-solid-state and I noticed two types that arrived so I first tried the larger sized one (503) and when that didn't work I tried the other one which you can see currently attached to the switch in the photograph.

The test mode works and when the capacitors are on its #26 stuck on. When I clip the capacitors all switches are open.

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#84 3 years ago

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Quench

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503 (0.05uF) and 473 (0.047uF) capacitors should be fine.

At switch 26, remove the white-brown wire.
At switch 27, remove the white-orange wire.

Solder the white-brown wire to switch 27.
Solder the white-orange wire to switch 26.

In other words change the switch number assignments by swapping those wires and see if the fault stays with the physical switch or stays with switch "26" in the matrix.

#85 3 years ago

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stoptap

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It all looks a bit ugly under there. Make sure that nothing is shorting and that there are healthy gaps between all the solder tabs of the switch.

#86 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from Quench:
503 (0.05uF) and 473 (0.047uF) capacitors should be fine.
At switch 26, remove the white-brown wire.
At switch 27, remove the white-orange wire.
Solder the white-brown wire to switch 27.
Solder the white-orange wire to switch 26.
In other words change the switch number assignments by swapping those wires and see if the fault stays with the physical switch or stays with switch "26" in the matrix.

Thanks Quench I looked underneath and I might try swapping switch wires with switch 21 instead as it's a lot nearer and I won't have to unhook the wires/drag them so far. I'll try and use my manual to work out the right wire from 21 to swap with the white/brown wire from 26.

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#87 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from stoptap:
It all looks a bit ugly under there. Make sure that nothing is shorting and that there are healthy gaps between all the solder tabs of the switch.

Yes stoptap it is a bit of dogs dinner isn't it! When you say healthy gaps between all solder tabs you mean the three solder tabs on the switch arent touching each other, right?

#88 3 years ago

A S

stoptap

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Ed_209:
Yes stoptap it is a bit of dogs dinner isn't it! When you say healthy gaps between all solder tabs you mean the three solder tabs on the switch arent touching each other, right?

Yes, gently bend the tabs away from each other.

1 month later

#89 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Hey all. So aside from the rollover switch I've yet to have time to repair it's all pretty good. Plays nicely.

Looking at my coin door there seems to be a part missing, the coin comes in and then drops with no guiding chute to get it down to hit the switch. I'm trying to workout what part I'm missing and where to source it here in England.

Hope your machines are seeing you through, each night I get in a quick game and it's flipping amazing!

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#90 3 years ago

RCC

RC_like_the_cola

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Sellersburg, IN

12y 91,800 5,656 26

You're missing a coin mech. You can buy them at most parts suppliers.

#91 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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Quoted from RC_like_the_cola:
You're missing a coin mech. You can buy them at most parts suppliers.

Brill thanks!

1 week later

#92 3 years ago

JAT

PinNickleby

Pinside apprentice

Moreno Valley, CA

6y 29,900 98 15

Did you ever replace the diode at the problem rollover switch? My Black Pyramid had an issue recently where it was constantly scoring from one of the lettered targets. Replaced the capacitor first, issue still occured. Issue solved when the diode was replaced. Be sure you get the proper orientation of the banded side, match to the way the current one is installed.

3 months later

#93 3 years ago

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Ed_209

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