Hello all,

I remember the IPDB note that was on the Gottlieb "street level" pin series, as follows:
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A "Street level" game, which were an experiment by Gottlieb towards designing a simplier, single level (no ramps), slightly smaller and cheaper game. They did not sell very well, and only six models (Premier's 1990 'Silver Slugger', Premier's 1990 'Vegas', Premier's 1990 'Deadly Weapon', Premier's 1990 'Title Fight', Premier's 1991 'Car Hop' and Premier's 1991 'Hoops') were made.
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The "slightly smaller" aspect confuses me. In terms of overall dimensions, I think it is clearly untrue. Silver Slugger, Title Fight, and Car Hop (H: 77", W: 27", D: 52", Weight: 260 lb.) have the same dimensions as Lights...Camera...Action (the first System 3 and only Sys3 to come before the "street level" line-up). Hoops is only 75" in height (the only dimension different), but that matches Cactus Jacks and Class of 1812 (two System 3 games just after the "street level" series ended; Cactus Jacks is the same weight but Class of 1812 does weigh more).

Vegas and Deadly Weapon are 26" wide (otherwise their dimensions match Silver Slugger, Title Fight, and Car Hop). So, are these the only ones "slightly smaller" than Gottlieb's full-featured pins (I didn't research to see if 26" was otherwise common or not)? Was it something else (less actual playable space on the playfield and/or the playfield being smaller despite the cabinet size)? Or is the IPDB statement wrong (as a majority of these games have cabinet dimensions on par with the full featured titles Gottlieb released around the same time period)?

Ah, that dimension isn't on the flyers so I may measure that (I have a Silver Slugger... but I don't own any other Gottlieb games, still, if everyone was around the same size it may be *good enough* for me to get a sense of it).

Shorter in the way ForceFlow mentioned (cabinet body), or do you mean in some other way?

Not to digress from size too much, but...

Hoops seems very polarizing. I've not played it. I've heard it didn't rely much (at all?) on mystery awards, so very non-Gottlieb of them in that case. I know some people really like it from a tournament game perspective.

Silver Slugger seems to have balanced scoring, but mystery awards are the only way to get a multiball, so that's going to annoy some players.

Those are really the only two I know anything about.

Finally got around to some comparisons, and this accurate. The back area runs about the same height as Firepower, so the playfield remains pretty close to the glass (no ramps to accommodate). So, it saved them a bit of wood.

Scooby Doo mystery solved, thanks all!

Part of the purpose of this thread was to help me in a research project I was doing to gather "street level" information for a podcast episode I was planning. I did finally get that all done and assembled (I had to find time to listen to some past Gottlieb interviews... finally happened). This size discussion is a very minor part, but here's a direct link to that part of the show if you'd like to hear what the designers thought of the effort, why it didn't work, and some various specifics and trivia related to that time in Gottlieb's history: https://soundcloud.com/user-465086826/episode-47#t=23:17

Thanks again everyone who weighed in on this, it was very helpful in trying to gather up what I could about Gottliebs of this vintage.

Glad you enjoyed the segment. We've been around a while but we're a fairly small podcast. Mixed gaming, so that won't appeal to everyone (we're probably 70% pinball and front-load that segment for convenience), but we do it for fun and I've wanted to do something like the street level for a while, but it took a while to gather everything up to a level I was comfortable declaring comprehensive. Everyone already knows all about Williams and why they were popular. I've always been interested in the less successful/less known stories, like Playmatic, Sega of Tokyo, etc. Harder for me to do ones where background materials aren't in English though.

As for Gottlieb itself, I don't have strong negative feelings towards them in part because I think it's better to just judge on a game by game basis (obviously Gottlieb's development cycle being so short compared to Williams means you'd statistically expect better games out of Williams, but each game is unique and should be judged on its own merits and flaws). Besides, shows are generally the only place I see Gottlieb games, so I have relatively limited experience with them (whereas it is easy for me to find a collector or a location with an "A list" Williams game).

I did not catch that originally when I focused on the height of the cabinet. Comparing to my limited selection of other games, it is definitely the smallest in cabinet length, by approximately 3.5". Making note of that so I don't forget, thanks!

No, it bothers me too. I've posted/responded to episodes that do this before (hopefully politely!) that I disagree when people treat "street level" and "single level" as synonyms. Because it was a Premier thing, in the purest sense I do think it mandates four basic pillars:
1) Single level
2) Cheaper to build (and ideally to buy)
3) Simpler (in terms of requiring less operator intervention)
4) Smaller

Now, for me personally, I'm willing to compromise a bit on #4 (because the space saving was relatively minimal), but on a technical level all these pieces should be in play.

TNA, Beatles, and Mafia all violate #2, and Beatles possibly #3 as well. Not sure on Tokyo Perfect Drift yet. Sales price proposed is under a Stern Pro. Maybe.

Games that I'd consider being non-Premier street levels would be Harley-Davidson (the Bally 1991 version, which was made in response to Silver Slugger), and maybe Breakshot (was meant to be a throwback, classic style... but if it wasn't cheaper or simpler to maintain it should be disqualified).

Premier wanted their street games to be sold for less than full-featured games. It was a core part of the strategy (that distributors ignored). It's really not ground any present manufacturer seems to be examining, except perhaps deeproot. But, given how it went for Premier, that isn't particularly surprising (their sales fell under the street level run and improved after they returned to the full-featured approach).

TL;DR: Yes, it bothers me too. "Single level" is the term for games without ramps and/or multiple playfields. "Street level" is a term for a specific marketing strategy and games that adhere to that philosophy.

Edit: Oh, it looks like I never linked the article I wrote a year ago on street level in this thread. I decided to do that after recording the podcast episode so that it could all be written down and easier to access. So, you can always read that to know my full thoughts on it: https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2017/11/16/the-history-of-street-level-pinballs/

I agree. Both words sound somewhat similar, and I also think that most people don't know what exactly was meant by "street" (I didn't), and perhaps assume the main playfield is the street and thus single-level pins are just street level, rather than relating to the type of operating location.

In my job, we regularly deal with legislative bills. These often have what is called a "fiscal note" attached (describing the financial impact if the bill became law). I know a LOT of people who call them "physical notes", which is totally wrong, but they sort of sound the same and the mistake just continues to exist (and, I suppose, people think of the notes being printed and thus existing physically... maybe?). So this sort of thing happens.

Thanks for the details. I was more getting at taking the principals of Premier's "street level" series and seeing if any other games might have gone for something that would have met Premier's definition. So, while I knew Capcom was doing their own thing with a classic line, I was curious if that line checked all the boxes that if Premier were to do it they'd have called it a street level (if that makes sense).

Interesting. Well, I guess due to the deliberate pricing decision it would not have qualified as a "street level" by Premier's measurement. I've never actually played this game. I remember hearing in an interview Roger Sharpe saying he thought it was a good game except for the decision not to go with standard-sized flippers on it.