(Topic ID: 181669)

Strange Williams System 7 switch matrix issue

By silver_spinner

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 11 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by barakandl
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Linked Games

#1 7 years ago

ok this one has me stumped:
watch the video as it explains it all. issue is on the driver board itself, not the game.
THX

#2 7 years ago

Have you done anything with the game rom? The reason I ask is I had a very odd fault, which while not the same as yours, turned out to be a corrupt rom. I have no idea how, but a line of code must have become corrupted and it caused a very odd fault which was only finally diagnosed by complete accident when somebody kindly let me change bits from their machine to mine trying to find the issue.

Initially otherwise I would suspect a tolerance on a resistor or diode to be out, as I believe as the targets drop, they add up to a resistance value that is measured at the board, yours obviously can't deal with that amount being down, which maybe could be with one of those items worn out of spec.

Little if no help I'm afraid. Best of luck and let us know if you do find a fault, it would be interesting to find out the cause.

#3 7 years ago

remember, the other driver pcb i have makes the game work correct, so the mpu has no issues with rom.
i also measured every pull up resistor on the board in the switch matrix area and i also replaced both resistors , the 470 pico farad cap , the ic 7406 and the disc cap right next to that ic in that column green/blue wire pin 2j3 in that circuit. no changes.

#4 7 years ago

You checked the PIA for the switch matrix is good? Your video says you replaced the socket.

40 pin connector looks original

#5 7 years ago

On sys7 driver boards the col drive section had resistors that were present in earlier versions replaced with wire links. Looks to me like you've got an older version of the driver broad in the game and the one you're swapping in from BK has the links so it works fine.

On early (sys3-6) schematics they are 1k resistors R204 to R211, on the schematics with the updated version they show as 0 ohm links W9 to W16. What's on your functioning board may look like a resistor because they are machine placed at assembly and normally have just a single black band, but they are a wire link of zero ohms.

This explanation would make sense because all the drops on Barracora are on the same switch column, so any combination of five drops prevents the switch read from functioning.

So, to solve your problem ensure R204 to R211 (or W9 to W16) are wire links and I think you'll be fine.

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from SYS6:

On sys7 driver boards the col drive section had resistors that were present in earlier versions replaced with wire links. Looks to me like you've got an older version of the driver broad in the game and the one you're swapping in from BK has the links so it works fine.
On early (sys3-6) schematics they are 1k resistors R204 to R211, on the schematics with the updated version they show as 0 ohm links W9 to W16. What's on your functioning board may look like a resistor because they are machine placed at assembly and normally have just a single black band, but they are a wire link of zero ohms.
This explanation would make sense because all the drops on Barracora are on the same switch column, so any combination of five drops prevents the switch read from functioning.
So, to solve your problem ensure R204 to R211 (or W9 to W16) are wire links and I think you'll be fine.

my working driver from bK has 330 ohm resistors in those spots instead of 1k.

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from smailskid:

You checked the PIA for the switch matrix is good? Your video says you replaced the socket.
40 pin connector looks original

socket was replaced and new pia was installed

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from SYS6:

On sys7 driver boards the col drive section had resistors that were present in earlier versions replaced with wire links. Looks to me like you've got an older version of the driver broad in the game and the one you're swapping in from BK has the links so it works fine.
On early (sys3-6) schematics they are 1k resistors R204 to R211, on the schematics with the updated version they show as 0 ohm links W9 to W16. What's on your functioning board may look like a resistor because they are machine placed at assembly and normally have just a single black band, but they are a wire link of zero ohms.
This explanation would make sense because all the drops on Barracora are on the same switch column, so any combination of five drops prevents the switch read from functioning.
So, to solve your problem ensure R204 to R211 (or W9 to W16) are wire links and I think you'll be fine.

YOU WERE CORRECT: did what you said and it fixed the issue. thx so much everyone for the help. hope this post can help another if the issue occurs with their game. the odd thing is, i bought the machine like this a year ago. so previous owners could never play 3 ball multiball bcuz of this board. someone must have put in wrong board along the way.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from silver_spinner:

YOU WERE CORRECT: did what you said and it fixed the issue. thx so much everyone for the help. hope this post can help another if the issue occurs with their game. the odd thing is, i bought the machine like this a year ago. so previous owners could never play 3 ball multiball bcuz of this board. someone must have put in wrong board along the way.

Did WMS really change the switch matrix in sys 7 software or is there some other kind of effect at play.

I have noticed some driver boards with zero ohm resistors are more likely to have switch bouncing in system 6 games. Those resistors and cap would be "decoupling" purpose i'd assume.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Did WMS really change the switch matrix in sys 7 software or is there some other kind of effect at play.

Only speculation on my part, but I believe it is tied up with when the WMS drops stop using the horseshoe contacts and went to those with the switch blades at the bottom. If I'm correct the issue is too many simultaneously closed switches causing the column drive to run out of puff (that's a technical term - i guess I mean current ) If you look at the switch matrix circuit the column drive splits to a parallel path at each row (with a closed switch) which would divide the current.

Remember the horseshoe drop contacts had a momentary contact on the way down for scoring and a single series "all in bank down" switch - which very typically just reset the drop bank to up. So with this arrangement there would be relatively few simultaneously closed switches.

I guess for WMS another approach to this problem, other than removing the resistors, would have been to spread the individual drops across different switch columns, but this would make a dogs' breakfast of under playfield wiring.

Does anyone know which game WMS went to the new style drops, the Barracora and Jungle Lord I have use the new style, my Firepower has the old style - maybe Alien Poker or at sys7?

I have noticed some driver boards with zero ohm resistors are more likely to have switch bouncing in system 6 games. Those resistors and cap would be "decoupling" purpose i'd assume.

I'm not sure how a series resistor would do any debouncing? No caps were changed in the design as far as I understand. I imagine the blade / leaf style switches used in pinball are fairly grubby, but that a matrix read method would have some inherent debouncing in it just due to the timing? How are you detecting the bounce you observe?

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from SYS6:

Only speculation on my part, but I believe it is tied up with when the WMS drops stop using the horseshoe contacts and went to those with the switch blades at the bottom. If I'm correct the issue is too many simultaneously closed switches causing the column drive to run out of puff (that's a technical term - i guess I mean current ) If you look at the switch matrix circuit the column drive splits to a parallel path at each row (with a closed switch) which would divide the current.
Remember the horseshoe drop contacts had a momentary contact on the way down for scoring and a single series "all in bank down" switch - which very typically just reset the drop bank to up. So with this arrangement there would be relatively few simultaneously closed switches.
I guess for WMS another approach to this problem, other than removing the resistors, would have been to spread the individual drops across different switch columns, but this would make a dogs' breakfast of under playfield wiring.
Does anyone know which game WMS went to the new style drops, the Barracora and Jungle Lord I have use the new style, my Firepower has the old style - maybe Alien Poker or at sys7?

I'm not sure how a series resistor would do any debouncing? No caps were changed in the design as far as I understand. I imagine the blade / leaf style switches used in pinball are fairly grubby, but that a matrix read method would have some inherent debouncing in it just due to the timing? How are you detecting the bounce you observe?

Good post, you are probably on to something.

I did mail in and return board work for a few years which included probably hundreds of wms driver boards. I used a time warp and some LED read out / switch pcbs to test stuff including play. It seems some driver boards are more likely to have bouncing switches than others. I didnt always change the switch resistors to zero ohm, but when I did for sys 7 games, it seemed switches where more likely to get a bounce to them. Ultimately a not clean switch causes bouncing, but rollovers and even the start button bounce can be exacerbated by something on the driver board.

Maybe it is interrupt speed too... id usually mate a sys 7 driver with sys 7 mpu. I don't think they used that precise of components for interrupt generator.

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