(Topic ID: 179421)

Strange TZ clock issue

By Bowlingpin

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

Issue: clock will stop at 11 or 1 when ball is drained during modes involving clock when hour hand is near "6".

Apon boot up: game will find 12o'clock 100% of the time and will find/keep real time 100% of the time.

In test: all optos register 100% during slow forward and slow reverse. During fast forward and fast reverse only the DMD shows the 30min opto is missed at 5 and 11. It seems to happen regularly around the 5/6 and 10/11.... I've let the clock run in test for over a couple minutes and it never stops but I can see the 30min opto isn't registering twice during the complete fast cycles.

Interesting addition: when ball drains and clock stops at 11 or 1- the clock will set itself back to 12 after next player/ball drains. (It's as if the CPU knows the clocks not it the correct position.

All hour optos register and displays are identical to what manual shows.

The oritentaion of the inner gears have been checked, adjusted and rechecked using the manual as a guide, yet I still continue to have the same issue every so often.

I installed ingos board back in may of 2015 and recently tried using another ingo board and I'm still having the same issue.. I think Ingo is a great asset to the hobby and believe the problem doesn't involve his board.

Hoping I can learn and figure this out with the help of you guys and gals.

#2 7 years ago

My game has the exact same issue.

And it has HAD this issue since it was shipped from the factory.

I've been able to completely rule out anything in the clock except the motor - it's not Ingo's board, it's not the hour/minute hand looseness.

It's a real low priority for me, since it doesn't affect game play (and like you said, it resets the next time code calls to home the clock..) but here's the two issues I'm thinking it is -

(1) The clock motor is running faster than expected (motor out of tolerance, flasher voltage too high, etc.) and the CPU's scanning of the 9th switch column is slow enough to where the minute hand's breaking of the 12:00 opto is missed, or
(2) The 8-driver PCB has a cap or resistor out of tolerance, and the column driver is occasionally not rising high enough, or
(3) There's a resistor/cap out of tolerance on the MPU, and the quick break of the hour opto isn't dropping low enough for the 339, or high enough for the 240 to raise the 240's output.

My next step, when I got around to it, was going to be replacing the 8-driver PCB.

Edit to add that this 'missing' of the 00 minute opto could - and likely is - occurring on the other optos. The ROM is programmed such that it can handle individual misses (i.e. If the clock is running backwards, and it sees 9:45, then misses 9:30, then 9:15, it won't stop on that 'miss' as an error, it will keep going. In this case you - the player - won't see anything unusual - until the hour opto is the one that's missed, and when it happens when the clock reaches 12:00. Also note that you will NEVER see this in test mode. Why? Because this 'reset' speed has no test in Test Mode - the 'Fast' speed in test mode isn't the same 'fast' used to reset the clock.

#3 7 years ago

Very interesting coyote. I do think you're on to something.

Truly not a big deal (no credit dot)but its a weird issue I figured I'd post. Glad to know I'm not the only one!

Agreed not the clock board or the hour/minute hand. If I remember correctly you have a sample/prototype tz? Mine isn't a proto but it's an early production. Do you think the motor or possibly the metal gear for it was changed during the production?

If the issue isn't with the CPU or the 8driver board.. maybe the ribbon cable? Mine seems to be in good shape though.

#4 7 years ago

I had weird issues a few years ago with mine. Bought a new board and the problem went away but quickly came back. Here was my issue. One of the clock hands could be bent just enough that the tab did not trigger the opto. Or because of the play in the shaft the tab sometimes triggers and sometimes not. I added a small amount of black electrical tape to the tab and no more issues. A few people have had a similar issue and resolved it in this way.

Good luck.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from Bowlingpin:

Very interesting coyote. I do think you're on to something.
Truly not a big deal (no credit dot)but its a weird issue I figured I'd post. Glad to know I'm not the only one!
Agreed not the clock board or the hour/minute hand. If I remember correctly you have a sample/prototype tz? Mine isn't a proto but it's an early production. Do you think the motor or possibly the metal gear for it was changed during the production?
If the issue isn't with the CPU or the 8driver board.. maybe the ribbon cable? Mine seems to be in good shape though.

My game is an early sample - I haven't compared motors with a production one close enough to notice - however, there's at least one other user on here (Pinside) that has a TZ that was made a day before mine (literally) and noone else seems to have reported this issue, including him. So I'm leaning towards something just barely out of tolerance causing the MPU to 'miss' it.
On my game, I've replaced the ribbon cable, to no effect. (Not because of this issue, but because they were all just really old.) I have a feeling that if it WAS the ribbon cable, you would experience other issues with the flashers that that board controls as well. (i.e. Barekly firing, or flashers NOT firing when they should..)

Quoted from PBFan:

I had weird issues a few years ago with mine. Bought a new board and the problem went away but quickly came back. Here was my issue. One of the clock hands could be bent just enough that the tab did not trigger the opto. Or because of the play in the shaft the tab sometimes triggers and sometimes not. I added a small amount of black electrical tape to the tab and no more issues. A few people have had a similar issue and resolved it in this way.
Good luck.

This IS a possibility - but not on my game, at least. If I use electrical tape to WIDEN the amount of the interrupter (i.e. make the interrupter wider than the hand), so that it causes a longer break in the opto, yes, that 'fixes' it - causes the issue to not happen. As it is, my interrupter is already too long - if I raise the playfield up, it will 'nick' the bottom of each opto as it spins. I can't make it any longer than that.

I'll also add, a fact that leads me to believe it's something on one of the boards is that it ONLY seems to happen when the MPU is handling a lot of different processes.. Like at the end of a ball when modes are getting canceled, at the end of powerball mania (if you drained before timer runs out).. On lighter times (like exiting from test mode) I don't think I've ever seen it happen.

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from PBFan:

I had weird issues a few years ago with mine. Bought a new board and the problem went away but quickly came back. Here was my issue. One of the clock hands could be bent just enough that the tab did not trigger the opto. Or because of the play in the shaft the tab sometimes triggers and sometimes not. I added a small amount of black electrical tape to the tab and no more issues. A few people have had a similar issue and resolved it in this way.
Good luck.

+1, I had a similar issue on my TZ 7-8 years ago and fixed it using the above described method. I haven't had the issue surface again since using this fix.

Gord

#7 7 years ago

I'm pretty certain the problem doesn't involve the minute hand passing through the optos, as I can see the (opto- indicator leds) on the top of Ingos board and all trigger during the slow/fast cycles.

When you say "out of tolerance" ?do you mean a faulty component was used in either of the boards or just not a compatible one for the MPU to read the optos quickly enough when a lot is going on in game.

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from Bowlingpin:

When you say "out of tolerance" ?do you mean a faulty component was used in either of the boards

I'm using that as a general term - i.e. Voltage to the motor is too high,. making it spin a little too fast, to the column transistor on the 8-driver PCB not bringing the column low enough (or a pull up resistior on the same board bringing the column too high), and so on.

It's just a matter of ruling everything out. I'm going to be borrowing another game's 8-driver PCB (that controls the switch column driver) this weekend for testing - if I plug this board in, and it still occurs, then I can rule out anything on the 8-driver PCB.

#9 7 years ago

Mine does this too but I decided to try and not let it bother me. I do notice it when it happens but know that it'll fix itself.

Eric

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Mine does this too but I decided to try and not let it bother me. I do notice it when it happens but know that it'll fix itself.
Eric

Yeah, it's honestly so far off my radar that I never actively tried fixing it. Now, however, another Pinsider local to me has a TZ, and I can borrow the driver board to test it out. If it turns out NOT to be the driver board, I will likely stop there until I have a chance at a WPC-89 MPU board, etc..

#11 7 years ago

An update -
Like I mentioned, the next step for me was to try a different 8-driver board. With a local pinsider having a TZ in-house that he's working on, I borrowed that game's board, and swapped it into my game.

Unfortunately, the problem remained. For S&Gs, I'm going to borrow the MPU board next, and try that.

#12 7 years ago

Thanks for the update coyote!

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