(Topic ID: 304870)

Strange Display Behavior Question [Solved]

By rockwell

2 years ago


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  • 29 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Wolffdp
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

OK, on to my next issue...

I have one display (the Player 2 display) on my Mr & Mrs Pac-Man that is displaying strange behavior. It displays a score based on whatever digit is in the "hundred-thousands" place across all digits. So for example, as you can see in the linked video, when the other player displays are showing "421,130" for HSTD, the Player 2 display shows "444,444."

In-game, if I have a score under 100,000 it displays nothing (effectively a "0" in the hundred-thousands place). If I have a score between 100,000 and 199,999 it displays "111,111." If I have a score between 200,000 and 299,999 it displays "222,222." Etc.

Any idea what might be causing this? I swapped the displays around a few times and the issue stays in the Player 2 position. So it's not a bad display. The wiring to the display appears correct, as does the wiring to the A4J1 and A3J3 connectors.

Thanks!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tnqemrbrkm7LSa2m6

#2 2 years ago

maybe of no use but try removing and replacing the 5101 ram at U8, this will wipe all stored settings.

#3 2 years ago

If the above does not work, try resetting the top left MPU connector.

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

maybe of no use but try removing and replacing the 5101 ram at U8, this will wipe all stored settings.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

If the above does not work, try resetting the top left MPU connector.

I will give these things a look. I have an Alltek MPU, for what it's worth.

Here's a look at the display self test...everything looks normal (except no millions digit), not sure if the playfield strobing is normal.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tuZgTXk25m3Do3s3A

#5 2 years ago

So display test shows correct digits (minus the missing millions) but in game p2 does the odd stuff?

Are you sure you have M&M pacman selected for the game?

Is the harness original to the game or transplant from something else? The 7th digit strobe signal for the millions is used for the -50 and earlier soundboards so doesn't go to the correct part of the displays.

#6 2 years ago

I have seen these symptoms in a board with a bad 6810 RAM, even though it has passed the start up test.

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

I have seen these symptoms in a board with a bad 6810 RAM, even though it has passed the start up test.

I do have a fresh 6820 I can swap out to see if it helps. If not, I can put base a 5101 and see if that changes anything.

#8 2 years ago

No change with the fresh 6820. For the 5101 at the Bally U8, I'm not sure if there is a viable replacement on the Alltek. The Bally U8 equivalent appears to be U15, where there is this:

PXL_20211127_192658369 (resized).jpgPXL_20211127_192658369 (resized).jpg

Doesn't look like anything I can replace. Do I have that wrong about the Bally U8 being equivalent to Alltek U15?

#9 2 years ago

not familiar with Alltek but they would have a non volatile or FRAM, not requiring a battery.

as the oddity follows each display I rule out the U1 MC14543 on the displays......maybe swap the PIA's U10 & U11.
not sure if they are labeled that on an Alltek board though?

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from rockwell:

I do have a fresh 6820 I can swap out to see if it helps. If not, I can put base a 5101 and see if that changes anything.

a 6820 is a PIA IC, not compatible with a 6810 RAM IC

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

not familiar with Alltek but they would have a non volatile or FRAM, not requiring a battery.
as the oddity follows each display I rule out the U1 MC14543 on the displays......maybe swap the PIA's U10 & U11.
not sure if they are labeled that on an Alltek board though?

The Bally U10 and U11 are the Alltek U6 and U2 on my version. Those are both newly-installed and working PIAs in this case, but i can give em a swap and see if it yields any changes.

#12 2 years ago

I swapped the new PIAs, no change. I did swap in a different MPU and the display worked normally (though still no millions digit), so at least I can confirm something is up with this MPU. Though still unsure what.
PXL_20211128_135444374 (resized).jpgPXL_20211128_135444374 (resized).jpg

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from rockwell:

I did swap in a different MPU and the display worked normally (though still no millions digit)

It's really pointing to the 7th digit strobe line in your harness not being correct since that's 2 mpu's doing the same thing.

Are you sure that someone didn't put 7 digit glass on a 6 digit display board? I've seen people (operators) do that in the past as they could only get the 7 digit glass, or more likely, laziness.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

It's really pointing to the 7th digit strobe line in your harness not being correct since that's 2 mpu's doing the same thing.
Are you sure that someone didn't put 7 digit glass on a 6 digit display board? I've seen people (operators) do that in the past as they could only get the 7 digit glass, or more likely, laziness.

I had a similar thought. Checked that wire (black and green wire from Position 12 on the displays to A4J1-7, if I read the schematic correctly) and everything looks in place, continuity from display to MPU tests good. Hmm.

Will give it another another look. Maybe I am missing something.

#15 2 years ago

Any other thoughts what may be causing the failure of my seventh 'millions' across the displays? Feel like I'll start there

#16 2 years ago

if i am reading the schematic correctly, your display digit enables are pins 1-7 inclusively on the mpu board J1.

i am assuming pin 7 on J1 on the mpu is the millions, so, remove pin 6 being the 100,000's and put it in the pin 7 position?

if the millions digit starts working i again assume it can only be a pin/wire/connection/continuity issue with the black with a green tracer?

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

if i am reading the schematic correctly, your display digit enables are pins 1-7 inclusively on the mpu board J1.
i am assuming pin 7 on J1 on the mpu is the millions, so, remove pin 6 being the 100,000's and put it in the pin 7 position?
if the millions digit starts working i again assume it can only be a pin/wire/connection/continuity issue with the black with a green tracer?

Thanks for helping me think through the logic. I will experiment and examine a bit more later tonight, but a quick test did yield some results:

- Removing pin 7 on J1 actually fixed the buggy digits on the player two display position. Still no millions digit (as expected).
- Removing pin 7 and replacing it with pin 6 yielded the same result, no difference. Still no millions digit.

Plugging pin 7 back in place made the displays brought the buggy digits issue back on player 2 display.

I will have to re-trace the wiring and see what I am missing.

#18 2 years ago

this is an odd one, but in the end will probably be really simple.

have you checked each display pcb, components and headers and display pins for a possible short?

are you able to put any of the displays in another pin you own to achieve the result that the millions digits actually do work on all four displays?
it would be remarkably odd that all 4 millions digit drivers on their pcb's were all open circuit, or that U1 was failing.

#19 2 years ago

still pondering on the oddity.......

maybe check the game select dip switch bank, that you have continuity when the switch is ON and vice versa?

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

this is an odd one, but in the end will probably be really simple.
have you checked each display pcb, components and headers and display pins for a possible short?
are you able to put any of the displays in another pin you own to achieve the result that the millions digits actually do work on all four displays?
it would be remarkably odd that all 4 millions digit drivers on their pcb's were all open circuit, or that U1 was failing.

Agree, I keep waiting to find a broken wire or something simple and go "d'oh!" So far no luck

I will start diving deeper looking for shorts, and see if that turns up anything. We'll get there! Thanks again for the thoughts.

#21 2 years ago

So what about just having only player 1 plugged in and start with the wiring there to the MPU based on the results?

#22 2 years ago

I found the issue!

After narrowing it down to the wiring (I had re-pinned the display connectors and installed new Wolffpac LED displays), I was finally able to isolate the issue.

Turns out everything was re-pinned and re-installed properly. But...on the original display IDC connector housings, there were wires that were routed across some of the unused pins. So, for example, a given wire would be daisy-chained (but unused) across two connectors, say, to get to the third connector where it was used. The wire was still inserted into the IDC on the skipped-over displays, but on an unused pin. This didn't cause any trouble on the original displays. On the Wolffpac displays however, this appears to be an issue. At least it is in my game.

Removing the daisy-chained connections at unused pins and just letting them float freely cleared the issue, and the displays worked normally (fixing both the weird player 2 display issue and the missing 7th digit).

So I've cleaned them up and left the connectors that were on unused pins removed from the housings. Everything seems good.

1 month later
#23 2 years ago
Quoted from rockwell:

I found the issue!
After narrowing it down to the wiring (I had re-pinned the display connectors and installed new Wolffpac LED displays), I was finally able to isolate the issue.
Turns out everything was re-pinned and re-installed properly. But...on the original display IDC connector housings, there were wires that were routed across some of the unused pins. So, for example, a given wire would be daisy-chained (but unused) across two connectors, say, to get to the third connector where it was used. The wire was still inserted into the IDC on the skipped-over displays, but on an unused pin. This didn't cause any trouble on the original displays. On the Wolffpac displays however, this appears to be an issue. At least it is in my game.
Removing the daisy-chained connections at unused pins and just letting them float freely cleared the issue, and the displays worked normally (fixing both the weird player 2 display issue and the missing 7th digit).
So I've cleaned them up and left the connectors that were on unused pins removed from the housings. Everything seems good.

Well done for solving this problem. I can confirm that I had the exact same issue with player 2 display when using led displays on my pacman. I wish you’d created this thread a long time ago!!! Ha ha

So there’s no chance this was a ‘somebody hacked the wiring’ either. Pacman at least doesn’t like led displays !!

On your led displays was pin11 joined to pin12?? This is puzzling if so as the schematics say 11 should be NC so why do this at all??

#24 2 years ago

Before I started messing with it, the wiring hadn't been messed with. It was "factory settings"

#25 2 years ago
Quoted from rockwell:

Before I started messing with it, the wiring hadn't been messed with. It was "factory settings"

Yes that’s what I was meaning ie I’m confirming another pacman with factory wiring had the same problem

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from applejuice:

On your led displays was pin11 joined to pin12?? This is puzzling if so as the schematics say 11 should be NC so why do this at all??

Stern displays use 11 instead of 12 so it makes the displays interchangeable between Bally and Stern games.

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

Stern displays use 11 instead of 12 so it makes the displays interchangeable between Bally and Stern games.

Yeah but by doing this they killed support for some Bally games it looks like. A user settable jumper to join them would be better

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Yeah but by doing this they killed support for some Bally games it looks like.

This appears to just be a quirk with Mr & Mrs Pac-Mans wiring.

There's at least half a dozen makers of LED displays for these early Bally/Stern games and many have upgraded without having this issue except on Mr & Mrs Pac-Man.

2 weeks later
#29 2 years ago

This is Dave from Wolffpac. FYI there is a jumper block on the back side of the 1985 control board that allows you to cut and/or jumper pins 11 and 12 for the cases like you have on your machine. Unfortunately, I never got around to adding to the instructions. You can find which one to cut by looking at the schematic at the end of the assembly instructions.

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