(Topic ID: 79579)

Strange electrical phenomenon?

By Tridentphoto

10 years ago


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  • 45 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by Patofnaud
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    #1 10 years ago

    I was soldering a broken lead on my coin switch, and I'm using the electric outlet in the machine. When I touched the soldering iron to the switch wire, there is a group of 3 bulb the light up on the playfield. Does that mean there is some kind of grounding issue?
    I also touched a solenoid contact with the soldering iron to see what would happen and it started to trigger.

    #3 10 years ago

    I don't think so, I measured it to ground, and got continuity, but I wasn't reading any voltage ac or dc.

    #4 10 years ago

    It's reading about 170-200 ohms when I have it plugged in the machines outlet, and ground on the coin door

    #5 10 years ago

    There should be almost no voltage on your tip. If it lights up a light bulb, there may be more than 5v on the tip. More than 5v has the ability to damage circuit board components.

    Pitch it and get a new one.

    #6 10 years ago

    Stupid question maybe, but tell me you are not doing this with the machine turned on.

    #7 10 years ago

    Yes, I was doing it with the machine turned on. I'm guessing thats a big no no?

    #8 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    Yes, I was doing it with the machine turned on. I'm guessing thats a big no no?

    Yep. if the soldering iron touches two things at once and makes a path of continuity for electricity no telling what damage you can do.

    #9 10 years ago

    Plus I'm guessing the tip is all grounded, thus touching even one thing is completing a circuit.

    Never solder with the machine on.

    #10 10 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    Plus I'm guessing the tip is all grounded, thus touching even one thing is completing a circuit.
    Never solder with the machine on.

    +1

    Never,,, ever....

    #11 10 years ago

    So then I suppose it's not odd for lights on the playfield to come on when soldering the coin door switch?
    I thought maybe there was something wrong somewhere. Well, there is something wrong somewhere, but I hoped that was a clue. As of yet I can't figure out what the problem is.
    The millions digit on the 7 segment display won't light.
    When I turn the machine on, there is a strange and arbitrary number in the ball count display, like 57
    The rotary turret won't turn, there's a couple switches that don't register on it too, and the ball lock and solenoid don't work.

    #12 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    So then I suppose it's not odd for lights on the playfield to come on when soldering the coin door switch?
    I thought maybe there was something wrong somewhere. Well, there is something wrong somewhere, but I hoped that was a clue. As of yet I can't figure out what the problem is.
    The millions digit on the 7 segment display won't light.
    When I turn the machine on, there is a strange and arbitrary number in the ball count display, like 57
    The rotary turret won't turn, there's a couple switches that don't register on it too, and the ball lock and solenoid don't work.

    Whoa there partner...slow down a bit. We all don't want you to move too fast and damage anything.
    Agreed as all the others said, first of all - don't solder with the game on.

    Second, you need to do a bit of homework. Is this a newly aquired game?...or did these failures occur in your possesion? (i.e. we know they were working now they are not) For our benefit on the board, what is your level of experience with electronics? Have/know how to use a DMM?

    There's a lot that should be cursory checks when aquiring a game, and really, should also be done on many of the type of problems as they occur. Namely, checking power supply voltage and condition, checking fuses for condition and value, including the fuse holders. Connectors are huge as well...loose/oxidized contacts and faulty wiring are common.

    Start by letting us know what game this is...many things are the same, some things are different. Get a manual and schematics. We can point you to things to check and test. Then pick one specific problem to tackle. Rome wasn't built in a day, but if we work together and do this systematically we can help you repair it as best as possible or point you in best course of action.

    #13 10 years ago

    Lol, sorry.
    I just got this game, and I'm trying to revive it. It's a stern Viper.
    I have a multimeter, I know how it works, but I'm not an electronic master by any stretch.
    I checked the test points in the boards, which seem to be fine. It boots and plays pretty normally otherwise.
    I'm trying to determine exactly where the problem parts connect, so I can see if there's a connection issue, or a component problem in the line somewhere.
    The boards look to be in great shape too, although the battery is off the main board. I will try to attach a battery to see if that will help too. That's my next thing.
    As much as troubleshooting these things is a pain, I love the Ah Ha! moment when you finally get it. I'm an official junkie now, I need my repair fix. Lol

    #14 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    I'm an official junkie now, I need my repair fix. Lol

    Yeah hear your there. When there is not enough broken things around me I am helping everyone online.

    Got a manual? Go into test mode and check for any alerts, go to switch errors check that as well. Write down anything reported failing.
    Pay specific attention to display tests, solenoid tests, and switch tests as those all have to do with the various issues you are reporting.

    This document covers Viper (Stern M-200) repair information in huge detail, so you may want to read it all. Especially the parts "Turning the game on for the first time"
    http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm

    #15 10 years ago

    There are no stuck switches, and during the solenoid test, the root shooter does not kick, but all e pop bumpers and drop targets work fine.
    I checked continuity from the root shooter solenoid to the J2 plug, it's good, so not a connection issue either.
    Then I checked the trace from the pins on the board from plug j2 to the transistor Q19, and it's good too.

    #16 10 years ago

    I should note the switch in the center of the shooter that lets the machine know the ball is there works.

    #17 10 years ago

    How the hell did you land a Stern Viper??? Like, we are talking old Stern Viper, not Sega Viper Night Driving right? If so, cut your losses and just sell this to me. Hell, just send me the backglass

    I'm no expert with classic stern/bally. If you need the guides, send me a pm with your email. I have to go through them as a refresher for these, as I have done very little with them.

    #18 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    Yes, I was doing it with the machine turned on. I'm guessing thats a big no no?

    Bah just be careful. I solder with the machine on all the time. Some people think you need to turn the machine off *and unplug it* just to replace a light bulb. Bah! sissies These were probably the same people you remember crying all the time in grade school cause they fell down.

    Anyways, you should start a new thread for the (unrelated to this thread) tech issues and ask each question clearly with a nice description of the problem. This thread title won't get the attention of most the tech folks.

    #19 10 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Bah just be careful. I solder with the machine on all the time. Some people think you need to turn the machine off *and unplug it* just to replace a light bulb. Bah! sissies These were probably the same people you remember crying all the time in grade school cause they fell down.

    I would not recommend this. Again, I believe the solder pens are grounded (in fact, I just confirmed this on my Weller), and thus you are not only completing the circuit for anything you touch with voltage and possibly jeopardizing many aspects of the electronics in the machine, you are also sending voltage unintended through your pen, which could either trip something, blow an internal fuse or failsafe, or worse yet damage your station/pen/iron.

    This is just not a good idea and no one should ever do this.

    #20 10 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    I would not recommend this. Again, I believe the solder pens are grounded (in fact, I just confirmed this on my Weller), and thus you are not only completing the circuit for anything you touch with voltage and possibly jeopardizing many aspects of the electronics in the machine, you are also sending voltage unintended through your pen, which could either trip something, blow an internal fuse or failsafe, or worse yet damage your station/pen/iron.
    This is just not a good idea and no one should ever do this.

    Yea yea. I've fixed 100-200 machines in the last few years and solder with the game on all the time. If there's some danger, it's so rare that it hasn't occurred even once in over 150 times. I suppose you are the same folks that use ground straps before opening your PC?

    #21 10 years ago

    Reminds me back in shop class in middle school, we had a project to solder a little light circuit. I remember holding on to the wire and feeling a tingle every time I tried to solder and I noticed the bulb on the circuit flicker. Turns out, the soldering iron was shorting out and we worked on old metal shop desks that completed the circuit.

    #22 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    The millions digit on the 7 segment display won't light.

    Which display? All or one?

    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    When I turn the machine on, there is a strange and arbitrary number in the ball count display, like 57.

    Could be bad 5101. Does it clear out or does it decrement as you start games games?

    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    The rotary turret won't turn, there's a couple switches that don't register on it too, and the ball lock and solenoid don't work.

    Again, that could be anything from bad connector at driver boards, to broken wires, to miss adjusted switches. You will need to walk through each diagnostic and pick one problem at a time to fix. You could get lucky, and find a commonality.

    Start with one problem at a time...

    #23 10 years ago

    Its all the displays Pat.
    As for the strange number that appears in the ball number space, it goes away when you start the game, and just the ball number shows.
    I tested all the connections, for the solenoid and magnet holder at least. I still need to check the target switches to the J2 connector for continuity though. I was about to start that when I went bowling instead.
    oh, and I have to attach a memory battery pack. I dont think this should have any effect to use without it, but you never know. (I played my EBD without it for a long time, and its basically the same board)

    #24 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    Its all the displays Pat.

    Been a while since I did much Bally/Stern of that era.. Those machines do not use a master display, everything come off the MPU off of the J1 connector. There is a digit enable 1 through 7. Check there for seating/bad solder joint. You may also want to pull all displays and cycle 1 or 2 into the Player 1 slot in the event one of the other boards is holding it down.

    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    As for the strange number that appears in the ball number space, it goes away when you start the game, and just the ball number shows.

    I'd file this temporarily under the gremlin category and worry about it after all other things are fixed. )

    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    oh, and I have to attach a memory battery pack.

    If you have no NiCad on the MPU, or a battery pack, that would explain the weirdness in the ball number display.

    Also when you put in a battery pack, make sure to use a blocking diode or you will blow the batteries when the MPU tries to charge them. They will prematurely fail and or cook.

    #25 10 years ago

    Oh shit, what's this you say about the diode and batteries? Where do I put it, on the + part of the battery? Thanks for that tip, I just glued and soldered 3 alkaline batteries together and attached them. I haven't turned it on yet though.

    #26 10 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Yea yea. I've fixed 100-200 machines in the last few years and solder with the game on all the time. If there's some danger, it's so rare that it hasn't occurred even once in over 150 times. I suppose you are the same folks that use ground straps before opening your PC?

    Wow. Well that's not unlike saying "I've driven drunk with no seatbelt all my life and never had an accident therefore it's perfectly safe for everyone." It's an anecdote, not a logical conclusion.

    The only way I can see how you could have been soldering the electronics on 100+ machines with the power on and not had any problem would be if you were using an ungrounded (probably 2-prong, not 3) soldering iron. If that's the case, all the metal on the entire soldering iron just jumps to whatever voltage the tip is touching. You could still have accidental damage (if you're soldering the hot side of a 50V solenoid and your solder touches ground while also touching the hot terminal) or get shocked (if you're holding the solder in one hand while touching ground with any other part of your body while soldering the 50V line or 120V AC with your other hand). But at least it is possible to solder live as you claim.

    This would not work as well for the OP since his soldering iron is clearly grounded. We know that because it shorted one side of those lights to ground (the same way a transistor or triac does), turning them on. So he would likely not have as positive an outcome as you if he continued to solder with the power on.

    I can see the temptation to do it - you can see if you fixed the problem in real time - but for me it's just not worth the risk of damage and/or shock. I strongly recommend soldering with the power off (I don't usually unplug the machine, though - I'm not worried about that because all my pins are 3 prong with a solid ground).

    #27 10 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Bah just be careful. I solder with the machine on all the time. Some people think you need to turn the machine off *and unplug it* just to replace a light bulb. Bah! sissies These were probably the same people you remember crying all the time in grade school cause they fell down.
    Anyways, you should start a new thread for the (unrelated to this thread) tech issues and ask each question clearly with a nice description of the problem. This thread title won't get the attention of most the tech folks.

    There's a huge difference between soldering with the power on and changing a bulb with the power on. I do the latter all the time to make sure the bulb is working/making contact. If you do the former, you'll be lucky if just a fuse blows to protect your game if something goes wrong...it's risky.

    #28 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    Oh shit, what's this you say about the diode and batteries? Where do I put it, on the + part of the battery? Thanks for that tip, I just glued and soldered 3 alkaline batteries together and attached them. I haven't turned it on yet though.

    In a machine that is designed to use AA batteries there is a blocking diode on the MPU that inhibits voltage from trying to charge the AA's. Such as all Williams, Data East and Bally/Williams machines.

    In a machine designed to use rechargeable, there no diode so that the NiCads can charge. Such as all older Bally/Stern and Gottliebs.

    If you wish to put AA's in a machine designed for NiCads, you need to install a diode between the + output of the battery pack and the MPU with the band on the diode pointing toward the MPU.

    When I build battery packs I usually just use 4 position AA packs and install a diode in the unused slot with the band acting as the + end of a battery. I do this for ALL packs regardless if they are going in a NiCad machine or not as it will not hurt an AA machine.

    #29 10 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    Yea yea. I've fixed 100-200 machines in the last few years and solder with the game on all the time. If there's some danger, it's so rare that it hasn't occurred even once in over 150 times. I suppose you are the same folks that use ground straps before opening your PC?

    It's flat out a very careless and dangerous thing to do. If you want to, go for it, but I just want to make it very clear to anyone out there reading this that I would suggest no one ever does this, and I'm betting that position would be heavily endorsed by most. I’m actually surprised you would recommend this Mark.

    I change lights at times with the machine on, but only if the light or socket can be extracted without touching anything else. Once I see there is a possible contact with anything else, why risk it? I turn it off, change it out, turn it back on. One of my friends did some serious damage to his boards once when doing just this and brushed the socket against a solenoid power lug. Sometimes you have to test things such as switches underneath the PF with the power on or measure voltages, but I always make sure my path is clear to and from whatever I have to touch. For anything you don't *have* to do with the power on, why knowing the possible consequences noted previously would you ever risk it? It’s just flat out careless in my opinion.

    Anyway, to anyone debating this in the future, you know the risks, do as you see fit.

    #30 10 years ago

    So it seems as though the display issue is worsening. During a test, the millions digit from all, displays was still out, and now the other 7 place display for the credit and ball no. Doesn't light in the 10's or 100's position either.
    Where I used to get the gremlin 57 in the balls space it just shows a 7.

    #31 10 years ago

    You may want to get some help on site, a pair of experienced eyes. Some of your posts lead me to believe that you are very inexperienced in electronics, a more experienced tech can get you on track faster. Please post some pictures of the inside of the backbox if you can.

    No corrosion on or near the battery holder? Repinned the cables for the displays, especially the one connecting to the MPU board? Just a guess, but it really sounds mostly like flaky connections, bad cables, cracked solder joints on the MPU or display boards...very common to this series of games. One thing would be to pull off all the display connectors and try one or two by themselves, this can help identify if you are dealing with individual display problems versus a system-wide display communication problem. Do they ever flicker when moving the cables?

    #32 10 years ago

    Some soldering irons have a floating tip so it is possible to solder with the power on (or use a cordless unit) - in any event I would never solder with the power on more so to the maybe some melted solder falling someplace bad or the solder your are holding inadvertently touching something as well.

    That being said with regards to the problems I would start with bad solder connections - check all the connectors. Also if any of the connector are a darker brown you would need to check the pins on those and make sure they are making a good connection. Also wouldn't hurt to re-seat all socket IC chips (power off - unplugged even better before doing this). I would also re-seat all the connectors as well. Pins over time oxidize and could create connection errors. By simply unplugging and plugging back in is usually enough to scrap through the layer.

    Next check the boards are all properly grounded - there should be some test points on the boards that you can measure from to the ground braid for continuity (if not can always measure from some of the IC's).

    #33 10 years ago

    Here are the boards for both my Viper, and my Eightball deluxe.
    Due to the similarities, I'm assuming my schematics for the EBD can be used on the Viper too?

    image.jpgimage.jpg image-653.jpgimage-653.jpg image-593.jpgimage-593.jpg image-652.jpgimage-652.jpg image-982.jpgimage-982.jpg image-689.jpgimage-689.jpg image-825.jpgimage-825.jpg image-414.jpgimage-414.jpg
    #34 10 years ago

    OK. From what I can see doesn't look too bad. I am not seeing any major corrosion problem in the battery area. Stern & Bally used this set of boards extensively in a lot of games. So yes, your EBD schematic should get you through most anything.

    Do all the players displays show the same goofyness? If not, does the problem follow displays if you swap one for another? On my Strikes & Spares I had to repin the upper left connector on the MPU, which was causing a lot of wrong digits.

    #35 10 years ago

    All displays, regardless of position.
    This makes me think it must be originating from a single source part, thought I'm not sure where, because my EBD has a separate driver board for the displays, and viper doesn't.

    #36 10 years ago

    Is it normal,when doing a switch test, to have the door slam switch actually reset the machine? I figured it would just show up as switch x, but it aborted the test mode altogether.

    #37 10 years ago
    Quoted from Tridentphoto:

    Is it normal,when doing a switch test, to have the door slam switch actually reset the machine? I figured it would just show up as switch x, but it aborted the test mode altogether.

    Yes. Normal on a lot of machines that the slam tilt is an inst-kill.

    #38 10 years ago

    Whew! That's a relief.
    I may have figured out why the root shooter wasn't working right, but everyone is in bed, so I can't test it till tomorrow.
    I tested the continuity yesterday from the targets to the concentric rings and it was all good, so I labelled what ring went to each pin, I also tested the plug, it was continuity on both sides. Then I tested the second plug to the backboard, it was good. Then today I tested it assembled again and the bad switches had nomcontinuity from the switch to the mpu board. So I disassembled the root shooter again and discovered there was a continuity issue from one side of the concentric rings to the other side of the board. I guess the rivets did a shitty job, so I put a dab of solder on each one and now there is continuity from one side to the other.
    If it works in the morning, I'll be a happy camper. Now to figure out why the millions digit isn't working on the 4 displays. Which should be easier I'm guessing to trouble shoot.
    Now to look for where the signal originates on a Bally 7 digit display....

    #39 10 years ago

    Cut that battery off the CPU board - right now.

    #40 10 years ago

    Vid, do you mean the white one beside the red pass sticker on my EBD board?

    #41 10 years ago

    Yes. The battery will destroy you boards.

    Remove it, replace it with an external battery pack with a blocking diode or better yet a super capacitor from Ed at GPE.

    #42 10 years ago

    MPU-200, solenoid driver, lamp driver, are all cross compatible between your games. The MPU may need some adjustments done if the ROM types are different.

    And yes. Cut the battery off. It is a time bomb waiting to destroy your MPU.

    #43 10 years ago

    Those old batteries will look OK, so people will leave cutting them off for another day.

    But it seems that the moment you start using the game again, and warming up the backbox, those batteries instantly puke and outgas .

    Don't wreck your good looking boards, cut the battery, right now.

    #44 10 years ago

    What exactly is a super capacitor? And where is GPE?
    On another note, I also discovered the thumbs up feature, so I've used it retroactively.
    Thank you so much to everyone who's chipped in to share their experience with me, and others. Even I've been able to help people in my limited time and exp here, it feels good to give back.

    #45 10 years ago

    GPE is Great Plains Electronics. Great source for components run by Ed who is a Pinside member (G.P.E. is his handle) and he specializes in pinball components/kits.

    A super cap is a cap in the farad range that is very small and can act like a battery in a pinball machine and basically never wear out or leak.

    https://www.greatplainselectronics.com

    CERS-1.5F-5V Capacitor, Radial Electroltyic, 1.5F, 5V

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