STOP using paypal for pre-ordering! You are NOT protected.


By lowepg

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by pinballrockstar
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    There are 58 posts in topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    10
    #1 2 years ago

    This issue came up in another thread, but since it's mired in thousands of posts, I think it warrants a clearer conversation.

    Also, it doesn't JUST impact the folks stuck in the Predator fiasco, it impacts ANY companies trying to (mis)use Paypal for their preordering.

    Simply put, Paypal does not allow for pre-ordering purchases. They require the product is SHIPPED within 20 days of payment. TWENTY DAYS!

    https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/helphub/article/?solutionId=FAQ1488&topicID=SECURITY_PROTECTIONS_US&m=TCI

    As such, the standard policy for them to accept a claim against a purchase is limited to 45 days.

    preorder4.jpg

    So folks, stop using paypal for ANY pinball machine pre-orders with ANY company! You will be operating outside their standard ToS.... and the sellers should know this!

    Somebody cranking out mods on the side for $20, 50 - $100- sure use paypal.
    But if someone fancies themself a "pinball manufacturer" and intends to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars (millions?), then they can bloody well open a REAL credit card merchant account like other REAL businesses do.

    #2 2 years ago

    Yep. At this time any PayPal preorders over 45 days are subject to the whim of the seller.

    Lesson learned on Predator, afaik I believe Heighway has also accepted PP preorder money for Aliens? Not sure. WOOLY? P3? Also applicable? May want to reset your allocated funds ASAP.

    image.jpg

    52
    #3 2 years ago

    Just do the smart thing and STOP PRE-ORDERING ALTOGETHER!

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from teekee:

    Just do the smart thing and STOP PRE-ORDERING ALTOGETHER!

    Well, DUH, yah...

    But I'm trying to appeal to the kids that don't think "abstinence" works...

    If you MUST participate in high risk behavior, at least use some PROTECTION.

    #5 2 years ago

    For my wife and I, our PayPal account is linked to our major credit card. Any purchase I make goes through PP, but gets paid with said card. That way we are double covered till the PP policy runs out anyway. I think that's why that one guy got his refund back.

    I'll say this too, my wife set up our account. She put her name first on the account and then mine in our joint account. When I make a purchase, it always shows her as the buyer. Pinsiders I've bought stuff from can attest to that.

    Anyway, Last time I had a problem (almost 2 years ago) they would NOT talk to me till they spoke with my wife first and got her info. I was pissed cause I'm jointly on the account. They didn't care and had to get her approval first. I only say this because I don't think PP would talk to anyone about anyone else's account for fraud purposes or not. If they did, it was either a major slip, a super sympathetic worker putting her job on the line or they have loosened that policy.

    Main point, link your PP account with a major credit card for the extra protection.

    15
    #6 2 years ago

    Paypal sucks cocks.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from teekee:

    Just do the smart thing and STOP PRE-ORDERING ALTOGETHER!

    Wait, what? Let me get this straight, you are saying to wait until the game actually exsists before sending my hard earned money? That's crazy talk

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from Concretehardt:

    Wait, what? Let me get this straight, you are saying to wait until the game actually exsists before sending my hard earned money? That's crazy talk

    That's our Teek. Full of craziness!

    -10
    #9 2 years ago

    Don't preorder anything you cannot afford to lose. If something is good enough and I can afford to take the hit financially I will preorder.

    Multi thousand dollar machines? Not a chance in hell. Part of me thinks the people in predator should never see a dime back for the stupidity.

    #10 2 years ago

    You really aren't protected with anything with these pre-orders as they take too long to fulfill from the time of order... even credit cards aren't going to go back a year or more to refund your money if you dispute it that late.

    So what do I do to isolate myself from such losses? DON'T PRE-ORDER!!

    I also found it a little humorous that I could have bought 2 WOZ machines used from owners before those that pre-ordered a year and a half before that didn't even have their machines. And let's not even mention the distributors that had machines to sell to the general public before those that ordered years before got theirs. But lets not open all that up, just using it for a general reason why I don't pre-order pinball machines.

    #11 2 years ago

    Buying a boutique is like buying a product from a startup, you have to enter at your own risk. PayPal can't bail out companies that fail.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Paypal sucks cocks.

    The one and only correct answer

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Part of me thinks the people in Predator should never see a dime back for the stupidity.

    You might as well throw all the JPOP people under the bus too with that statement boss

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Paypal sucks cocks.

    why would anyone want to suck a chicken???

    but yes paypal is a terrible, terrible company

    #15 2 years ago
    Quoted from flecom:

    why would anyone want to suck a chicken???

    That's not all they do to a chicken.....

    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from teekee:

    Just do the smart thing and STOP PRE-ORDERING ALTOGETHER!

    Doesn't matter. This was smart advice 4 years ago... but after each new thing gets announced, everyone jumps up with cash waiving and screams "take my money".

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from kaneda:

    Buying a boutique is like buying a product from a startup, you have to enter at your own risk. PayPal can't bail out companies that fail.

    No shit, Legolas.

    legolas2.jpg
    #18 2 years ago
    Quoted from Nibbles:

    You might as well throw all the JPOP people under the bus too with that statement boss

    They rather deserve to be. JPOP at least has a history in the business albeit design. He has no history of manufacturing the machines themselves. Maybe he makes them, maybe he doesn't. I don't want to hear the whining if something goes wrong because their money is safer in a vegas casino...

    #19 2 years ago

    I've never pre-ordered anything. But for those who have, I wish that everyone else would stop blaming the victim (the pre-orderers). If I got bilked out of thousands, I wouldn't even know what the correct course of action is. Call the police? Call a lawyer? Show up with a gun?

    I am interested in knowing what the correct action is from someone who is much smarter on these matters than me.

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    Doesn't matter. This was smart advice 4 years ago... but after each new thing gets announced, everyone jumps up with cash waiving and screams "take my money".

    Not anymore. Folks with preorders now got in months ago, and most of those folks won't do another after latest stuff happening.

    Quoted from dung:

    Part of me thinks the people in predator should never see a dime back for the stupidity.

    You should really keep that part to yourself champ.

    What happened was beyond our control. Not an excuse, but hindsight is always 20/20, which isn't supportive.

    -2
    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from Nibbles:

    You might as well throw all the JPOP people under the bus too with that statement boss

    Only if they will fit under there with the Preorderator people since it is probably the short bus.

    -1
    #22 2 years ago

    Why does an innocent / helpful thread have to always turn into people insulting each other?

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from kaneda:

    Why does an innocent / helpful thread have to always turn into people insulting each other?

    Cause the mods have ejected everyone from the other threads. You see what trace got ejected for?

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from Nibbles:

    Cause the mods have ejected everyone from the other threads. You see what trace got ejected for?

    For not posting a boob pic so to make up for my transgression here ya go.

    #25 2 years ago

    I sure feel sorry for all of those stupid people that preordered Big Bang Bar at $4500.

    They deserve what they get!

    #26 2 years ago

    Has anyone leveraged Amex to retrieve said funds? They have ALWAYS stood by me when I've encountered concerns with merchants. Understanding there are time limits to the original charge, however if anyone has paid funds in the last 120 - 180 days, you should be able to reverse the charge. The impact may be PayPal shutting down your account, buy hey... you get your funds back...

    #27 2 years ago

    Paypal doesn't allow preorders and if notified pre-orders are being taken will freeze accounts and return all monies to buyers available in the account and attempt to pull from bank account tied to the paypal account too.

    #28 2 years ago
    Quoted from AliciaC:

    Has anyone leveraged Amex to retrieve said funds?

    Marcus (Xerico) did; I also contacted them. They told me I can start a dispute for payments less than 13 months old. Will tell how it goes.

    #29 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mr68:

    I sure feel sorry for all of those stupid people that preordered Big Bang Bar at $4500.
    They deserve what they get

    That's funny. Obviously today we have different opinions on Gene. But back then I don't think any of us doubted him. Were in a different world Kim. lol

    #30 2 years ago

    How is PayPal different than any other payment method? It is basically a credit card processor.. One with a catchy name vs say those square iphone attachments some small businesses are using. If you're screwed on this, that has little to do with PayPal and everything to do with Kevin.

    Argue the pitfalls of pre order all you want but I don't see PayPal being better or worse than anything else..by all means link it to your credit Card vs checking account though just as a layer of protection.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from hawkeye11:

    That's funny. Obviously today we have different opinions on Gene. But back then I don't think any of us doubted him. Were in a different world Kim. lol

    I was just being sarcastic to those that call other people stupid and wish for them to lose money on Predator. What a shitty sentiment. And my guess is those same people also hate BBB owners for being very successful. (jealousy)

    I don't want to take us off topic but that's not correct about Gene. A lot of people doubted him and at one point he even went underground and cut off communication. Gene went long past his due date. An angry group of owners had risen and RGP was vibrant with arrogant chants of, rip off and it will never be built. Remember, When Pigs Fly?

    There's a lot of similarities here and with the other pre-order fiasco's. BBB, TBL, WOZ, MMr. So far a lot of people have gotten angry and Pinside has exploded with fear mongering but no ones been financially hurt.

    And here's a crazy thought. What if Kevin refunds everybody's money?

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mr68:

    And here's a crazy thought. What if Kevin refunds everybody's money?

    Then he'll go down as just a liar, not a liar AND a thief.

    But there's already a thread for that.

    So, my post wasn't to cast aspersions on ALL projects, but to simply state PAYPAL could very well offer little to no protection for pre-ordering per THEIR OWN terms of service.

    So, regardless of whether you're buying from the crooks or the heros in this hobby, paypal is not the right tool if you're looking for risk protection.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from usandthem:

    If I got bilked out of thousands, I wouldn't even know what the correct course of action is. Call the police? Call a lawyer? Show up with a gun?
    I am interested in knowing what the correct action is from someone who is much smarter on these matters than me.

    Definitely do NOT "show up with a gun"!!!

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from underlord:

    Not anymore. Folks with preorders now got in months ago, and most of those folks won't do another after latest stuff happening.

    You should really keep that part to yourself champ.
    What happened was beyond our control. Not an excuse, but hindsight is always 20/20, which isn't supportive.

    Hindsight is for things that at the time didn't seem so obvious. Handing several thousand dollars over to a complete stranger that is running a company out of his garage and has yet to produce anything seems like an obviously bad idea.

    BUT, if you insist that it isn't then I am currently designing the latest and greatest pinball machine using HOVER technology. OH, and my game has LASERS! Please send me 8k to reserve your spot today!

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    So, my post wasn't to cast aspersions on ALL projects,

    And as is the norm on Pinside, this thread went sideways. They always do.

    But back on topic for your pleasure, read sd_tom's comment as I believe he summarizes it very well.

    Quoted from sd_tom:

    Argue the pitfalls of pre order all you want but I don't see PayPal being better or worse than anything else..by all means link it to your credit Card vs checking account though just as a layer of protection.

    #36 2 years ago

    For all the beating it takes Paypal is great for me. I use it with other pinsiders and we always make sure lots of pics and details so we know what we are getting or shipping. The last game I had someone that pinside scared so I wrote a letter saying wont charge back having reviewed detailed pics etc.
    Not that I would have since we made a deal.
    Also it lets me use my amex for shopping or vendor transactions and its a great place to hold funds when I sell a pin and then ready to buy one without going through the household ; )
    I have bought and sold high end AV and pins now for over 15 years and never had an issue.
    I know some have but I think it really boils down to who you transact with not paypal.

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from Hwawonyu:

    For all the beating it takes Paypal is great for me. I use it with other pinsiders and we always make sure lots of pics and details so we know what we are getting or shipping. The last game I had someone that pinside scared so I wrote a letter saying wont charge back having reviewed detailed pics etc.
    Not that I would have since we made a deal.
    Also it lets me use my amex for shopping or vendor transactions and its a great place to hold funds when I sell a pin and then ready to buy one without going through the household ; )
    I have bought and sold high end AV and pins now for over 15 years and never had an issue.
    I know some have but I think it really boils down to who you transact with not paypal.

    Bingo. Paypal is great if you know who you are dealing with. I can't think of a safer way to have sent preorder funds to anyone. I use paypal every single time I can. They heavily side with the buyer. When it falls outside of their very clear policy, people get upset. That is not paypal's fault, its your own for using it outside of the recommended uses and outside their policy.

    #38 2 years ago
    Quoted from sd_tom:

    How is PayPal different than any other payment method?

    Well, in some cases - it *IS* different - that's what I was trying to share.

    Specifically when it comes to buyer protection, it extends for a much shorter time than many credit cards do themselves.

    And, while some might be covered here because they fund their paypal with a credit card, many people do not. They fund paypal via bank drafts and/or use existing balances from trades/sales/etc.

    In THOSE cases, using paypal is MUCH different than simply using a credit card.

    Other than that, I don't think we're disagreeing.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Paypal sucks cocks.

    Beyond that. I'd say bags of dicks.
    108309074_5c93022c76.jpg

    On another funny note.... Poor coupon advertising decision. Notice how tiny they try to make the name of the store.
    printable-coupon-dicks-no-expiration-20-percent-off-whole-store.jpg

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Well, in some cases - it *IS* different - that's what I was trying to share.
    Specifically when it comes to buyer protection, it extends for a much shorter time than many credit cards do themselves.
    And, while some might be covered here because they fund their paypal with a credit card, many people do not. They fund paypal via bank drafts and/or use existing balances from trades/sales/etc.
    In THOSE cases, using paypal is MUCH different than simply using a credit card.
    Other than that, I don't think we're disagreeing.

    Yea I can see that. Paypal is tricky when you have an account balance or even when you don't they attempt to use your bank first. There are times where I don't double check it and end up using my bank. I attempt to use my credit card every chance I get because I like my miles. The important thing for everyone to know is that they need to use their credit card through paypal, not that paypal doesn't cover you. They do with in their agreement, anything outside of that you need to rely on your credit card.

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    Definitely do NOT "show up with a gun"!!!

    Yeah, it's not even funny to joke around about stuff like that.

    When you get people up on edge, someone gets shot in the face.

    #42 2 years ago
    Quoted from thedefog:

    Notice how tiny they try to make the name of the store.

    If you thought it was tiny before, imagine once they take 20% off of it.

    #43 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:

    And let's not even mention the distributors that had machines to sell to the general public before those that ordered years before got theirs. But lets not open all that up, just using it for a general reason why I don't pre-order pinball machines.

    You just DID mention it....
    ...AND opened "all that up"

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    running a company out of his garage

    I get your meaning but...

    http://www.retireat21.com/blog/10-companies-started-garages

    #45 2 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    This issue came up in another thread, but since it's mired in thousands of posts, I think it warrants a clearer conversation.
    Also, it doesn't JUST impact the folks stuck in the Predator fiasco, it impacts ANY companies trying to (mis)use Paypal for their preordering.
    Simply put, Paypal does not allow for pre-ordering purchases. They require the product is SHIPPED within 20 days of payment. TWENTY DAYS!
    https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/helphub/article/?solutionId=FAQ1488&topicID=SECURITY_PROTECTIONS_US&m=TCI
    As such, the standard policy for them to accept a claim against a purchase is limited to 45 days.
    preorder4.jpg
    So folks, stop using paypal for ANY pinball machine pre-orders with ANY company! You will be operating outside their standard ToS.... and the sellers should know this!
    Somebody cranking out mods on the side for $20, 50 - $100- sure use paypal.
    But if someone fancies themself a "pinball manufacturer" and intends to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars (millions?), then they can bloody well open a REAL credit card merchant account like other REAL businesses do.

    Not if you use Paypal with a major credit card.. If paypal won't refund you then you can go to your credit card and get them to refund you.

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mr68:

    I get your meaning but...
    http://www.retireat21.com/blog/10-companies-started-garages

    Big difference between Apple's approach and Skit-B

    On March 5, 1975 Steve Wozniak attended the first meeting of the Homebrew Computer Club in Gordon French's garage. He was so inspired that he immediately set to work on what would become the Apple I computer.[6] Wozniak calculated that laying out his design would cost $1,000 and parts would cost another $20 per computer; he hoped to recoup his costs if 50 people bought his design for $40 each. His friend Steve Jobs obtained an order from a local computer store the Byte Shop the affordable computer store in Mt. View California for 50 computers at $500 each. To fulfill the $25,000 order, they obtained $20,000 in parts at 30 days net and delivered the finished product in 10 days.[7]
    The Apple I went on sale in July 1976 at a price of US$666.66,[8] because Wozniak "liked repeating digits" and because of a one-third markup on the $500 wholesale price.[9] About 200 units were produced and all but 25 were sold during nine or ten months.[7]

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Paypal sucks cocks.

    I would agree with you but sometime it is the easiest way to do business.

    #48 2 years ago

    The title of this thread should be changed to "Stop Pre-ordering Pinball Machines the Dream is over!!!"

    #49 2 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Hindsight is for things that at the time didn't seem so obvious. Handing several thousand dollars over to a complete stranger that is running a company out of his garage and has yet to produce anything seems like an obviously bad idea.
    BUT, if you insist that it isn't then I am currently designing the latest and greatest pinball machine using HOVER technology. OH, and my game has LASERS! Please send me 8k to reserve your spot today!

    And this is the part where you stop responding. We took a risk on a potential startup, wasn't obvious at the time regardless of YOUR wondrous view. Kevin was established in pinball circles @ the time and had heavy hitters vouching for him. Pin players, friends, all thought it was an exciting risk.

    Without risk there is no reward. This time we may have gotten burned. Don't need you throwing gas on a still burning ember.

    Long term I won't be preordering anything again. Hopefully future pin companies give up on putting risks on buyers and take most themselves, like it should be.

    Movin on.

    #50 2 years ago
    Quoted from paulywalnuts23:

    The title of this thread should be changed to "Stop Pre-ordering Pinball Machines the Dream is over!!!"

    Or just "Stop using Paypal" all together.

    download (2).jpg
    "Stop using Paypal!"

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