Are the energizer "advanced" series as good as the "ultimate" from a leakage point of view.

This isn't correct is it?

If you are going to start getting into this type of board work, get a solid desoldering iron like a hakko 808. DO NOT scrimp on this. You will be AMAZED at how easy removing IC's and other components become.

You can literally go along and desolder each pin (it takes a small amount of practice mind you), and the IC falls out.

If you are doing this type of board work and do not have this type of tool yet - it's time, you are there, you need one!

If you don't care about the existing RAM, cutting it out and desoldering the pins one at a time is the best way to remove it.

Here's a guy that does a 40 pin soldered in DIP in under 16 minutes using the technique:

viperrwk

It''s true, NVRAM doesn't run the RTC, so games with midnight madness won't always trigger at midnight, and your game clock will drift.

The clock drifted with alkalines anyways, never understood why. The clocks with alkalines are close, but they do drift some.

Yes, removing the old RAM chip and installing a socket is not something that many hobbyists will feel comfortable doing.

Price is a concern, no doubt. I could save a few bucks buying from the eBay link, but Rob is a long-time trusted seller/technician/friend, so I send my $$ to him.

For my customers who are on a budget, I still offer remote battery packs - or I'll even install a factory battery pack if they really want it - and I'm experimenting with lithium coin cells now. But if I fix battery damage.. I really suggest the customer do a NVRAM.

I'm not referring to the Universal anyPin which you seem to be assuming, which works in most all pinball machines. I'm referring to the 6116/6264 version which retails for $29.99. With the 10% discount on 10+, anyPin is certainly less expensive with shipping than your eBay link.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

I plan on moving to lithium batteries in TZ very soon since the clock is an important feature in this game.

Rob, I'm sorry but I have to say something as the link is mine. It shouldn't matter what NVRAM solution people decide to go with, it all does the same stuff and gets rid of the batteries and that's the important thing. You yourself are quoted many times as saying that it doesn't matter how people do it, just get those batteries off the board! Yet you are here in many threads pushing the anyPin as this superior product over any other NVRAM or remote battery holders. Up until anyPin you were pushing the remote battery holders you sell, but now they're a bad idea? It's all marketing tactics and business, but I'm not here bashing anyone's products and constantly adding to threads that discuss nvram, remote battery packs, etc trying to direct people to my sales pages. I've actually directed people to Pinforge RAM adapters quite a few times since I'm not currently producing 6116 or 5101 NVRAM variants for sale yet. I figure my products can sell themselves if they're good products and through word of mouth by satisfied customers, but that's kind of hard when there's someone putting competitor's products down every chance they get.

I know you are well respected in the pinball community and that's why I've kept my mouth shut to all the marketing and hype going on with anyPin, but it just doesn't sit right to have someone mention your product and have someone else putting it down for their own gain.

whaaaa? This is good? Am I missing something here? I can removed any IC in under I'm guessing 3-4 min with the hakko 808. There is sometimes the odd pin that is still a little stuck with some residual solder, but after a dab of new solder, the second time usually sucks it dry.

I don't see where Rob put your product down. He noted the person is looking for the cheapest option given multiple machines, and that his would be in fact his over ten. I can't see where he made any remarks on yours, only noting his was switchable from 6116 to a 6264, unless yours is as well.

I developed Lithium battery packs for a major phone and computing company... Lithium does not inherently explode or catch fire. You really have to work them over and over charge the hell out of them, then puncture them for them to leak. At most they will vent hot plasma for a second or so. (LOL)

So dont worry about rechargeable AA or one-time use LIthiums (which you can recharge on your desktop power supply if you can set the right voltage).

Not everyone has a Hakko or wants to spend the money on one.

Cutting out old components that you don't care about so you can deal with each pin individually is safer than trying to pull a whole IC or assembly. I have a Hakko and if I am replacing a component I don't care about will always cut it out first. Especially on older boards where the pads may lift because of the heat as it allows you to work on both sides of the board.

The lower hole in the third pic on this post illustrates what I mean.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/game-plan-mpu-repair-a-shotgun-guide-w-pix#post-1315474

Whoever removed this cap applied too much heat on the solder side of the board to get the cap out. The problem was that the cap is connected to a large trace on the component side. You can't heat the connection enough from the solder side to get the solder flowing out the hole before lifting the pad (which is what the previous person who repaired this board did.)

If you cut the component and heat the hole from the component side, you can remove the solder from the hole without lifting the pad on the solder side. That's why I always cut the component out if I don't care about it and why I said "if you don't care about the existing RAM."

viperrwk

I'm IN! My wife will pick up some Energizer (non-rechargeable) Lithium AA batteries on the way home. Er, I'm in the office....how many do I need for my Scared Stiff and T2? (3 each?)

Had to run to Sam's Club a little while ago. They had 12 pks for $19.97.

Do the battery thingys take 3 each??

Well, my philosophy is that if you have that much money in machines, and you're going to be doing board work, it's best to get a desoldering station for $150, or whatever they are now, along with a good temp controlled soldering station. Even with a pump and my weller iron, I can't remove anything as quick as with the Hakko, and I'm definitely heating the pad for longer with just an iron. I fly with the Hakko, even if I don't care about the component, zip zip zip and it falls out.

I just pulled the batteries from a route beater the other day and one was starting to leak. What's interesting was the next time I turned it on the volume changed, meaning the batteries were still holding memory! They were still from the 90s, possibly the original batteries from 1997.

I like the remote battery and cheap alkaline solution just fine. I'm highly suspicious that it's a myth that you're less likely to have spillage from these Energizer lithiums than ordinary batteries. Ordinary (quality) batteries don't leak if used properly - remove before they're dead, only install brand new batteries, don't mix new and old.

If you blow a blocking diode on a board and the lithiums start taking a charge from the board they can blow and fire and boom!!! Regular alkalines will just leak and melt but not fire or blow up...

Should I get these damn things or not?!

With the right tool you don't need to clip and pull. Infact i think this method increases chances for shorts, increases chance for damanging the component side of the pcb, overheats the traces making them more fragile, and takes much longer. If you can't desolder an IC with out clipping the legs, you probably dont have the right tool or practice in my opinion to be doing that kind of board work. I get in so many boards to fix where the biggest problem is someone tried to repair it in the past and mangled IC replacement and it is very frustrating.

As far as batteries. I like to do coin style lithium cr2032 and mount it on the PCB. They seem to last a long time, very inexpensive (i fix a lot of boards so it adds up), and never leak unless they get submerged in water. I learned this trick from watching Clay's pinball ninja videos and i like it.

Exactly. I was pointing out that anyPin is actually cheaper than the link provided since that was the point of the post.

And of course I'm going to recommend anyPin NVRAM over everything else. I make the damn thing, why would I recommend anything else that's less functional? That, and it's a superior product. Of course my opinion, but many reasons why I think that, besides the fact that they're my product.

anyPin>other NVRAM>my No Solder Remote Battery Holders>remote battery holders>batteries on boards

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

.

The likelyhood of a blocking diode going bad is slim to none. The only time i ever have issues with the battery chraging blocking diode is when the glass on the diode gets phsically broken resulting in usually an open, but can cause a short

LockWhenLit.com domain name expired?

Now you're promoting the fallacy that because your new technology has not been *proven* to be failure prone means it cannot fail. This fallacy is what caused the Challenger disaster, by the way.

In defense of lithium batteries, the idea that they will catch fire and explode is also bunk. There have been incidents with lithium batteries in aviation, but they were all connected to defective batteries and in high quantities of lithium. I've destroyed a few lithium batteries and they just get hot.

Viperrwk said he does have a Hakko as well, so I'm scratching my head over that too. Ever since I got mine a couple years back, it has made removing every type of a pin super easy, fast and with minimal heat.

Viperrwk - I've seen your posts and I know you're a knowledgeable guy for sure in this hobby, but doesn't it take you minutes to remove IC's with the Hakko?

I mean both methods work, but it's like taking out the minivan instead of the sports car. My neighbour has two 911's in his garage, never takes them out. I bet he's a cut the leg guy too (all in good fun of course).

Just ordered a 36 pack. Will report back in 20-25 years if they lasted. lol

Even if I was to use lithiums, I still want a remote holder because I am going to replace it anyway. Even where batteries haven't leaked, you can still find corrosion on the old holder. Plus, whoever might end up with the machine after me may not use lithiums, and it's all about a long term solution.

Is Brackins the last name of Ray from Gameroom Collectibles? If so, here's the video where he speaks of the batteries in pinball machines and things to look out for:

Yeah, registrar issues. Tomorrow's the last day of the "it can take up to" days, so I'm hoping it's back up tomorrow.

Thanks again to everyone that gave me a heads up.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Yep, 3 each

Thanks!

I never said I didn't use the Hakko even when I cut out the component.

Yes Andrew, you could damage the component side of the board with cutters if you're not careful.

You can also easily lift a pad with the Hakko if you're not careful.

My method is to always apply heat to the side of the board where the through hole is connected to either a trace or plane rather than where there is only a pad. Sometimes this is the solder side, sometimes its the component side. You are much less likely to damage the through hole when you apply heat to a connected pad.

I've been repairing boards on and off for 30 years - I started out repairing six switch Atari 2600s 30 years ago. This is what works for me. And if you don't have a Hakko (which I didn't when I started out) cutting out the components is the best way to replace components. And with a Hakko it's that much easier and safer.

Ultimately, people need to do what works for them. This works for me. If it doesn't work for you that's ok.

viperrwk

FYI: Lithium's *DO* leak.
I just tossed a whole case of unused lithium's -- many were leaking.

What kind / manufacturer / type were they?

This batch was Hitachi -- coins.
We also had some 2/3 AA Lithium's leak in some very expensive test equipment -- Varta's if I remember correctly.

Counts in my book when a post is made by someone in direct response to a link or otherwise praise to a competitor's product and instead an attempt is made to direct people to their own product. It's a marketing tactic that would rub more people wrong if it weren't for the notoriety Rob has in the community. If it was just a random post about his own NVRAM then no problem, but he directly quoted a satisfied customer's comment and attempted to direct people to his product which he believes is superior and "cheaper" using verbiage that clearly intends to make my product seem inferior. Not the first time he's promoted his product(s) in a random thread or when someone has mentioned a competing product. Do some digging here or on RGP and that will be apparent. Whether that type of marketing bugs you or not might depend if you're on the short end of the stick or have ever created anything, finally to get some organic word-of-mouth exposure to it only to see someone else cut it down. Or for that matter if you get really annoyed when people leave flyers on your windshield when you run into the grocery store. In any case, I do appreciate any and all my satisfied customers who have spoken well of the products I've created without me asking at all and helped me gain some exposure. I've really just been glad to create products or things that people find useful.

As far as price, I often offer quantity discounts as well and that's what PinballManiac40 was talking about. I don't generally do quantity discounts on eBay because the fees are a crazy $3.50 per unit even if I sell a quantity to a single customer (then Paypal fees on top of that). I use eBay as a venue for some extra exposure to the products I sell, but as for the nvram.. if you go to my website (pinitech.com) and ask me I can do discounts on 2-3x or more adapters. The discounts get better the higher the quantity purchased.

In a few weeks I hope to do a big sale here at Pinside as soon as I build out 100-150x of the adapters. I haven't been able to do this too often because I usually only have 20-30x of them ready to ship and had been involved with a bunch of house projects last year so never got a bulk of inventory made up. It takes me some time to stock inventory for a bigger sale like that. Once I sell out of my stock of Ramtron NVRAM I'll likely focus on some other products that use it or move on entirely in a different direction. This is just not fun getting some organic exposure to products in a niche community and having someone take the wind out of the sails a few posts later.

My hope is actually that some day one of the big 3rd party pinball PCB board guys realize that NVRAM designs are a dime a dozen and they should get in that space too. If a factory is assembling them and the proper deals were worked out, I'm positive this stuff could cost < $15 retail. In lower volumes though, the price can only come down so far to justify the time and money involved in producing it.

Anyway, sorry to the OP to hijack slightly.. I'm done with any further discussion regarding this incident. Watch for an NVRAM sale in a few weeks.. maybe going-out-of-nvram-business sale We'll see..

So.... with this info from GPE = original thread idea nullified??? That's disappointing.

Nice of you to chime in. Ed obviously carries a little weight in the longevity of electrical components.

I couldn't agree more with you there, and again, I know you're clearly experienced, it shows in your help posts.

Well, that's unfortunately life, especially in forums. I have dealt with Rob with one board I could not repair, and he's answered many questions for me, and I consider him a *huge* asset on here for what he does. Some members at Pinside don't help anyone with anything and troll non-stop against one of the main manufactures, and get non-stop thumbs up with a high Karma total (if you care about that). Other guys are in every tech thread doing important stuff for people, and rarely get thumbs up.

Regardless, I don't think Rob really said anything bad about your particular version, just that he thinks his is superior as to what's out there. Whether that's right or not, I don't know, but none ones calling your stuff crap that has purchased so far, so I guess I'm to assume you product is good as well.

In the end, I applaud anyone doing anything to keep these drama queens alive

I still do not see where anyone has experienced first hand an Energizer Ultimate lithium AA non rechargeable battery leak.

Just a thought...
Not all batteries are made to a high quality standard, even within brands. Maybe why older Duracell batteries from the 90's still were intact, while Duracells from just a few years ago are leaking; USA made versus made in China. Same with Lithiums, not all made the same.

Disappointing? The original thread idea was to say that remote battery holders are a waste of time. The fact that somebody out there was able to convince people that it was not is far from disappointing. We must preserve these older boards any way we can, as these machines will not work without them.

Battery leakage in a remote holder tends to follow the wires back to the boards, so even that is not a 100% solution, it just reduces the odds.

I did quite a lot of reading before deciding to go with Lithium AA's. It basically boils down to this: All batteries leak, but Lithiums have a very low chance of leakage, especially compared to Alkalines, and once they are dead, they have an even lower chance of leakage. If they go bad they tend to vent rather than leak.

Also considering Stern uses the flat Lithiums on their new boards, how many of you are replacing them with some sort of NVRAM or remote holder? Not many I'm sure. Lithiums are the type of battery in your cell phones and cameras as well... maybe a slightly different kind but you get the idea that the entire electronics industry is very comfortable with the low failure rate.

A lot of people are ready to jump on any idea that makes their life easier or sounds better than what the last guy said, but leaving any kind of AA battery holder on the board is a disservice to this hobby, because these machines need to be around long after you are done with them.

Just my opinion.

So I can spend an extra 5 bucks and get a battery that greatly reduces the risk of leakage? Done.. picked some up at the store the other day.

Really sorry man, didn't mean to step on any toes, honest. Saw the post pointing to an eBay auction with a "cheaper" focus and thought the comparison was to anyPin. Looking back I'm not sure why, since it doesn't seem anyPin was mentioned.

I've been on service calls were folks want me to install, or talk about their "Universal NVRAM". Knowing anyPin is the only universal NVRAM available, I of course assume I'll be installing one of my devices. Turns out it's just an NVRAM they got from eBay and are incorrectly calling it "universal NVRAM". It's annoying and disappointing since I've put so much into anyPin to make it work in most any pinball machine. Maybe I'm too quick to point out the benefits of my product, but it's something I'm very proud of and very happy to have available.

So again, sorry, didn't mean to harsh your buzz.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

I've seen *new* alkalines leak in the package before. It does happen. I'm sure it's not a regular thing.

I appreciate the reply Rob, I can understand the excitement of creating a new product and wanting other people to see its benefits over what's currently out there. Also can understand if you read quick and thought the post to the eBay link was comparing the price to yours. I hadn't seen anyPin mentioned and it seemed odd to have it brought into the picture. Anyway, maybe just keep in mind for the future when a competitor's product is mentioned.. might just be easier to let it go or explain the benefits of your product elsewhere and let the customers or products themselves do the talking in those cases. That and if anyone wants to save $4-5 for something that has less features but they don't need those features, I think we can understand that viewpoint too.

Not sure what that's about.. but there are quite a few people making nvram these days. I'm definitely not calling the ones I sell universal anywhere. Mine are just 6264 replacements and I make that pretty clear everywhere, luckily 6264 replacements account for quite a few pinball boards. I know about a year prior to your product's release there was an adapter that used a solder blob to switch between 6264 and 6116 pinouts (since they're very similar pinouts).. and I've seen a few other people do that as well. Maybe one of those adapters?

That's best practice - doesn't keep batteries from leaking though. It can and has happened even when following those practices and batteries in use for under a year. Some just are subpar.