(Topic ID: 18471)

Stop inserting the Stern vs. JJP in every thread and discuss it here.


By The_Dude_Abides

7 years ago



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    #1 7 years ago

    Hey all I thought I would start this thread to see if it would help prevent members from starting this argument in threads in which the OP has nothing to do with the rivalry. Lets try to keep things classy in this discussion. I will start by listing areas I think both Stern and JJP can improve in. These are just my opinions, it's not my intention to offend any pin fans out there.

    The negatives from Stern is they need to step up on their quality control. More directly they need to do a better job of applying solid and consistent clear coats to their playfields especially on their shooter lanes. They should release pins with more complete code. They need to step up on the art packages on their pins (looks like they are working on this). Their toy design and integration needs to improve.

    The negatives for JJP is they started out with what I think is one of the lamest themes for pinball in it's history. They need to pick better themes in the future IMO. They need to stop giving dates for release and pushing it back. They should stop increasing their prices especially when their base model will now be $7K. Hopefully their second design is a bit more simplistic and less cluttered cutting down on production cost and labor. I know some will disagree but I think they could use some improvement in their art department as well.

    #2 7 years ago
    Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

    The negatives for JJP is they started out with what I think is one of the lamest themes for pinball in it's history.

    Some of us think it's one of the greatest themes ever. It's a shame so many people think pinball can't be pinball unless it has superhero dudes in tight pants, vampires & zombies, or rock & roll bands.

    The fact of the matter is, Jack isn't trying to pander to the traditional pinball market. So he doesn't need to follow the same, tired formula Stern has been doing on autopilot for the last 10 years... Perhaps it's time to attract something other than middle-aged white guys to the hobby?

    The WOZ theme is really deep and existential. It's not so shallow and viceral like modern pinball themes where they're all we're-the-good-guys-theyre-the-bad-guys-LETS-KILL-THE-BAD-GUYS! Basically with few exceptions, the last dozen Stern themes have been the exact same thing. Just another variation of cops and robbers with different costumes. WOZ has so many intricate things going on within the plot and the characters and their symbolisms... perhaps in time you can learn to appreciate the many different layers of things going on in that theme? Or maybe not. I recognize some people just want blood and explosions, but I look forward to WOZ attracting a different group of players who appreciate more subtlety.

    What you guys don't understand is that WOZ is the "Beatles" of adventure movies. Everyone from George Lucas and Steven Spielberg to John Carpenter and Michael Bay would credit The Wizard of Oz as being an epic, inspiring and amazing piece of cinema history which influenced their own careers.

    How many films have a 100% rating on Rotten Tomatoes????
    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1092277-wizard_of_oz/

    And Judy Garland isn't so tough to look at... I'd choose her over Angus Young or Optimus Prime any day: judy.jpg

    #3 7 years ago

    i have to agree that WOZ is one of the better themes right now. Besides the last couple of stern games they have had some that appeal to only a certain percentage of the population, let alone the pinball community.

    Big Buck Hunter - appeals the most to people who have played the video game
    CSI/24 - appeals to people who have watched the show
    Rolling Stones - has no appeal for anyone (mostly) under the age of 35. i am 32 and while i know some stones songs, i know more about the WOZ story.

    in contrast

    WOZ - a movie that most everyone has seen. a following that appeals to many, many more people than AC/DC or X-men (both of which appeal to me, but not to as many) Songs and themes that people know. How many movies, cartoon, broadway shows, Halloween costumes, etc than AC/DC or X-men (although X-men does have cartoons, comics, movies, and costumes... and possibly a broadway show someday.)

    the point is that by having JJP producing games (and hopefully delivering soon) it has caused Stern to step up. AC/DC is much, much better that Rolling Stones, as i am sure that X-men will be better than Big Buck Hunter

    i love discussions, but remember that is all this is. there is no right answer no matter what you think. just because someone thinks a certain way doesn't mean that is the only way it can be viewed.

    fyi, i do have a WOZEC on order and if i had the cash i would probably have an X-Men (though the two toys look SOOOO big and out of place i don't know for sure), but after playing AC/DC i will definitely be on the look out for a premium some day.

    #4 7 years ago

    SOTR goes platinum 80 years later.
    Timeless.

    #5 7 years ago

    "Stop inserting the Stern vs. JJP in every thread and discuss it here."

    But that would ruin the fun....

    -1
    #6 7 years ago

    Well spoken folks, WOZ was a very smart choice for Jack to start with. The theme is timeless, pretty hard to find anyone in the modern world who has not seen the movie at least 1-100 times. I think it is going to be a masterpiece that changes the direction, mentality and spirit of pinball, forever. I wish I had gotten on board with the pre-orders for WoZ, this is one I am gunna regret not jumping on when I had the chance. If I had the funds today, I would buy it now.

    Jack, great dammed job, you and your team are to be commended in so many ways. The pinball community appreciates everything you have done and we all look forward to what amazing pinball you hold in our future, so exciting for all. Outstanding Jack!! Simply outstanding! Thank you Jack!

    #7 7 years ago

    Personally, I think there's no good argument here yet because noone has a WoZ pin. I REALLY hope JJP blows everyone away in the quality department, but we are going to have to wait until WoZ starts showing up in people's homes before the REAL evaluation can begin.

    Right now, it's just a fun thought experiment comparing reality (Stern), and ideology (JJP).

    Oh, and the theme is terribad... for me... I REALLY would have rather spent my money on JJP#1 than XMLE, but I can't possibly get past the theme. What's next? Alice in Wonderland or The Sound of Music?

    #8 7 years ago
    Quoted from copperpot:

    What's next? Alice in Wonderland or The Sound of Music?

    At one point before X-Men leaked, the rumor was the next Stern would be Alice in Wonderland. I was interested to see how that would turn out.

    -1
    #9 7 years ago
    Quoted from copperpot:

    Oh, and the theme is terribad... for me... I REALLY would have rather spent my money on JJP#1 than XMLE, but I can't possibly get past the theme. What's next? Alice in Wonderland or The Sound of Music?

    I'm curious.. what do you think of Circus Voltaire? It would be hard to top that game in terms of limp-wristed goodness.

    #10 7 years ago

    I personally would much rather have a pin based on a movie that is famous for decades than some horrible movie that is not memorable to the general public at all. Some examples are TS, LAH, DM, Waterworld, etc. Hell, Tron was pretty much forgotten until they made Tron Legacy, and the original Tron movie only had a cult following and not that many people saw the original. I personally liked the Tron movies, but I just saw them this year for the first time.

    #11 7 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    I'm curious.. what do you think of Circus Voltaire? It would be hard to top that game in terms of limp-wristed goodness.

    rs2.png

    #13 7 years ago
    Quoted from copperpot:

    Personally, I think there's no good argument here yet because noone has a WoZ pin. I REALLY hope JJP blows everyone away in the quality department, but we are going to have to wait until WoZ starts showing up in people's homes before the REAL evaluation can begin.
    Right now, it's just a fun thought experiment comparing reality (Stern), and ideology (JJP).
    Oh, and the theme is terribad... for me... I REALLY would have rather spent my money on JJP#1 than XMLE, but I can't possibly get past the theme. What's next? Alice in Wonderland or The Sound of Music?

    People said monkeys would fly before another pinball company comes along, be happy with what you get.
    Now not only is there another company the damn monkey is flying in the game!

    AIWL? Sure, put me down for a Dark Rabbit LE.

    #14 7 years ago
    Quoted from tracelifter:

    AIWL? Sure, put me down for a Dark Rabbit LE.

    I'm in for Jabberwocky LE.

    #15 7 years ago
    Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

    Hey all I thought I would start this thread to see if it would help prevent members from starting this argument in threads in which the OP has nothing to do with the rivalry.

    Yeah but the drama really ties the room together.

    Lets try to keep things classy in this discussion. I will start by listing areas I think both Stern and JJP can improve in.
    The negatives from Stern is they need to step up on their quality control. More directly they need to do a better job of applying solid and consistent clear coats to their playfields. They should release pins with more complete code. They need to step up on the art packages on their pins (looks like they are working on this). Their toy design and integration needs to improve.
    The negatives for JJP is they started out with what I think is one of the lamest themes for pinball in it's history. They need to pick better themes in the future IMO. They need to stop giving dates for release and pushing it back. They should stop increasing their prices especially when their base model will now be $7K. Hopefully their second design is a bit more simplistic and less cluttered cutting down on production cost and labor. I know some will disagree but I think they could use some improvement in their art department as well.

    I think your bringing up STERN QC is jumping the gun a bit. There's nothing to compare to yet on the JJ side. And the reality is that almost all the QC issues I've seen complaints about are fairly typical of NIB. From reading the comments of people longer in the hobby than I, "adjustments" have always been needed by operators back to the Williams days. It's the transition from Operator to hobbyist that is the source of most of these complaints, and the hobbyists desire to purchase NIB instead of from a re-seller who might go through the game in advance. Why we think devices as complex as pinball machines should show up at our doorstep and work perfectly...

    My crystal ball tells me that it may be that the release of WOZ actually vindicates STERN in this regard, because it may be that a lot of WOZ units ship and have their own mix of NIB headaches. In fact, given they're a new operation and a first pin, I would tend to think it's likely.

    To be clear, I think WOZ looks fantastic and I can't wait to play it. I'm just saying, let's compare apples to apples, and JJ hasn't delivered their first apple.

    #16 7 years ago

    Just throwing it out there, but I'll bet Predator is more fun than the both of them (maybe not as deep as WOZ, but much more the players pin).

    #17 7 years ago

    One thing on the plus side for STERN is they have been quite generous as far as supporting tournaments. In the last three months alone, they've sponsored four of the events I've run with 22 translites (that's around $2500 worth), bags and bags of keyfobs and some T shirts. STERN is definitely helping in a big way to promote our local scene, and get people playing on location.

    #18 7 years ago

    I hate to go off topic, but what ever happened to all the Bally/WMS snobs? You never hear about them any more. Did they all jump on the JJP bandwagon? Do they miss all the attention? Where are all you guys?

    I kinda liked them. Sure they were snobs, but they were a lot classier than some of the hooligans battling over Stern vs JJP these days. I have good friends who are devout Bally/WMS snobs. I suppose I should just ask them. If any snobs here would like to chime in, please do.

    #19 7 years ago

    It blows me away how little significance people give to what I personally think is the most important part of the game: the software. The software determines the scoring, the modes, the gameplay, the ruleset, how everything integrates, the lightshow, and everything in between.

    In this respect, WOZ has Keith Johnson, the undisputed best software developer of the modern pinball era.

    Themes are OK, but if the gameplay isn't enthralling, all you have are some graphics and sound bits. Stern has some rock star designers, but their rock star software guy is now with JJP. TSPP and LOTR are nothing without KJ's contribution.

    There's plenty of good reasons to be very excited about WOZ, not simply because they have a veritable "dream team" of accomplished developers, but they also have a virtually unlimited budget (compared to all their competition), creative freedom, and recognize that they have to make this game several steps above everything else or it won't matter. I think they're under no illusions about how critical the first game is and how good it must be or they might not have a second.

    Stern is only stepping up their game because they feel compelled to, and even then the new designers on board are being hamstrung by management and bean counters -- I'm not saying that's wrong - it probably makes good business sense because in the end Stern was the last company standing so they must have done something right, but Stern has never had a history of blowing peoples' minds with innovation (with a few exceptions like Orbitor One). OTOH JJP is taking a much more grandiose approach and willing to put a lot more on the line. He strikes me as the kind of guy who does not want to lose, and every step he's taken demonstrates that he wants to make sure he doesn't.

    The other players in the industry, whether we're talking about Predator, JPop, P3, etc. they're all hobbyists in comparison.

    I think it's possible for one of the the underdogs to show up even JJP. If so, it's going to come down to the software, not the playfield; not the theme. If Predator or MG or BHZA can do really cool things with technology and rules that bring new things to the game, that will change the industry. We'll have to wait and see. But IMO, in the long run, the theme won't matter if the software doesn't kick ass. And I don't see anyone else attributing the necessary significance to the software that JJP has.

    However, Stern has Gomez, and I think it would be unwise to underestimate what he can do if he's let off the leash... Hell he did P2K which is still light years ahead of everything else! I know those guys have a lot of great ideas that I'd like to see make into reality.

    #20 7 years ago

    I think the choice of Oz is brilliant. I like violence, boobs, superheroes and rock as much as anyone. But not every pin has to be dripping with testosterone. Many of us say we want the hobby to grow. That means appealing to a broader audience. Oz should do that.

    #21 7 years ago
    Quoted from txstargazer3:

    I like violence, boobs, superheroes and rock as much as anyone.

    I thought OZ had all of this?

    #22 7 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    In this respect, WOZ has Keith Johnson, the undisputed best software developer of the modern pinball era.

    Some people think that Lyman Sheats guy is pretty good.

    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    ...they also have a virtually unlimited budget..., creative freedom, and recognize that they have to make this game several steps above everything else or it won't matter.

    The exact same thing can be said about AC/DC.

    #23 7 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    It blows me away how little significance people give to what I personally think is the most important part of the game: the software. The software determines the scoring, the modes, the gameplay, the ruleset, how everything integrates, the lightshow, and everything in between.

    In this respect, WOZ has Keith Johnson, the undisputed best software developer of the modern pinball era.

    That's a big +1.....And because I love Lotr le I gave the Keith factor a ton of significance.....

    #24 7 years ago

    Alice in Wonderland would make a great theme
    Like Woz, the aim is to take the player on an adventure, not just complete modes

    Gottlieb EM's rule
    A

    #25 7 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    One thing on the plus side for STERN is they have been quite generous as far as supporting tournaments.

    Guess I feel compelled to point out that, so far this year, we've sponsored the Texas Pinball Festival (Stern is also listed as a sponsor of this one), Michigan Pinball Expo, Midwest Gaming Classic (after Stern pulled out last-minute from my understanding), and the Northwest Pinball Show. Maybe there are others that I've forgotten, not really sure. 2 of those (MI and NW), we provided machines at a substantial discount. Oh, and the IFPA towels.

    #26 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_keefer:

    Guess I feel compelled to point out that, so far this year, we've sponsored the Texas Pinball Festival (Stern is also listed as a sponsor of this one), Michigan Pinball Expo, Midwest Gaming Classic (after Stern pulled out last-minute from my understanding), and the Northwest Pinball Show. Maybe there are others that I've forgotten, not really sure. 2 of those (MI and NW), we provided machines at a substantial discount. Oh, and the IFPA towels.

    Speak of the devil, or should I say the wicked warlord of the cpu? ; )

    C'mon give us some info.. you can give us just a little tiny tidbit on what you've got planned? Just between us here. Nobody else has to know. We won't say a thing to Jack. Just between us.. shhhhhh : )

    #27 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_keefer:

    Guess I feel compelled to point out that, so far this year, we've sponsored the Texas Pinball Festival (Stern is also listed as a sponsor of this one), Michigan Pinball Expo, Midwest Gaming Classic (after Stern pulled out last-minute from my understanding), and the Northwest Pinball Show. Maybe there are others that I've forgotten, not really sure. 2 of those (MI and NW), we provided machines at a substantial discount. Oh, and the IFPA towels.

    Keef - No doubt I respect your work, but when I emailed Jack about supporting local events I got no response. So, I deal with what I get. And STERN has blown the doors off in the interim.

    Maybe I and my local events don't "rate", and I'm fine with that, but that's what it is.

    #28 7 years ago
    Quoted from KingPinGames:

    Rolling Stones - has no appeal for anyone (mostly) under the age of 35.

    More like 55.

    #29 7 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    Some people think that Lyman Sheats guy is pretty good.

    Lyman IS pretty good. I think he's probably one of the best coders from a programming standpoint. He also comes up with some pretty good rules when he wants, and has gone above and beyond to work on several games on his own time (Spider-man is the best example of this, and BDK if only he'd actually finish improving that one).

    However, I think from a pure rules design standpoint... Keith still, uh, rules. He's just goes so far, and is so creative... look at TSPP, where even the most basic of modes all have specific shot maps - following Homer's Day, or Bart's Day, or chasing someone across the playfield... and then you get gems like Springfield Mystery Spot and Alien Invasion. And then on BDK, look at the four Batman modes... they're all identical to each other: shoot everything once.

    #30 7 years ago
    Quoted from Pin_Crazed:

    Well spoken folks, WOZ was a very smart choice for Jack to start with. The theme is timeless

    Everybody keeps forgetting that WOZ has a lot coming. Disney is starting filming on a prequil in March 2013 and Warner Bros is releasing the remake soon. JJP is at the front of a wave.

    #31 7 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    One thing on the plus side for STERN is they have been quite generous as far as supporting tournaments

    Stern and JJP both have signed up to support some local AZ events. I think it's great that 2 major manufacturers are supporting the community again.

    Quoted from Sunfox:

    However, I think from a pure rules design standpoint...

    I think we can all agree that Lyman and Keith both rock pretty hard. There's really no reason to try to rank them. The fact that they are both working, and working hard, on rules for us pinheads means we all win.

    #32 7 years ago
    Quoted from absocountry2:

    Everybody keeps forgetting that WOZ has a lot coming. Disney is starting filming on a prequil in March 2013 and Warner Bros is releasing the remake soon. JJP is at the front of a wave.

    Don't think it is a matter of forgetting. I think it is a matter of not caring.

    #33 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_keefer:

    Guess I feel compelled to point out that, so far this year, we've sponsored the Texas Pinball Festival (Stern is also listed as a sponsor of this one), Michigan Pinball Expo, Midwest Gaming Classic (after Stern pulled out last-minute from my understanding), and the Northwest Pinball Show. Maybe there are others that I've forgotten, not really sure. 2 of those (MI and NW), we provided machines at a substantial discount. Oh, and the IFPA towels.

    And last December you sponsored the Washington Heights Pinball Open here in NYC. (Tons of t-shirts, bumper stickers, magnets). Thanks again JJP! (And note that all this activity is before the first game is even released...)

    #34 7 years ago

    I hope and suspect that the LCD will do a better job of explaining the rules and objectives than a DMD does. Otherwise, I would look forward to WOZ being just as confusing as TSPP and LOTR. I've heard they are deep games, but after playing each one (TSPP and LOTR) several time, I have no idea what is going on or what to shoot for. Me on LOTR consists of flipping the ball around, many multi-balls, extra balls and much time later it is game over. It seems like I had a good game...yet I don't even come close to hitting the high scores.

    I'm sure this is great in the home environment where you can take the time to learn the rules, but I don't see such "deep" rules pulling any inexperienced players in on location. I'm a lower / mid level player at best and like rules like Spiderman, Monster Bash, Attack From Mars, Medieval Madness, (Just realized those were all Lyman games) where the goals are clear and I know how to do everything.....doing it is the challenge. I don't even mind "light the scoop, hit the scoop to start the mode" DE games...because at least in them they make it clear that you have started a mode and what you are supposed to do.

    There is room for many types of game rules. What one person finds boring and repetive, another might find fun and challenging. What one person might find as deep and rewarding, others might find confusing and convoluted.

    #35 7 years ago
    Quoted from copperpot:

    I think we can all agree that Lyman and Keith both rock pretty hard. There's really no reason to try to rank them. The fact that they are both working, and working hard, on rules for us pinheads means we all win.

    Agree. The other reason it's dumb to compare them is because their styles are so different. Might as well compare Spidey to LOTR. Both are great games, but they're very, very different. Just like the guys who programmed them.

    Quoted from Sunfox:

    However, I think from a pure rules design standpoint... Keith still, uh, rules. He's just goes so far, and is so creative... look at TSPP, where even the most basic of modes all have specific shot maps...

    Many people feel games are getting too complicated. I don't, and it appears you don't, but lots of folks do. Having Keith and Lyman at two different pinball companies is good thing. Why on earth would you want to proclaim one is better than the other? You don't by chance have an OZ on order, do you?

    #36 7 years ago

    For me it's not a STERN vs. JJP thing. I hope they both could succeed. And I want to buy games from both in the future.

    For what I have seen and played now. AC/DC for me is the best game I owned or played. It's better than my SM and I thought no pinball game will ever top that. Themes are very important for me AC/DC is a very good theme. On the other hand I also like themes that are no mainstream, but and that's the point, the themes must be good. I have seen a "Forbidden Planet" Pinball theme here in the forum. That is a good theme. WOZ with the red slippers at the flippers is something I would run away when I see it. I liked the "24" pinball, but the goal to built an A bomb and to let it explode to get the jackpot was fun but killed it for me. "24" was no keeper. The WOZ theme is a silly, stupid thing in the same way for me. ;P

    Please excuse my bad english I would like to explain why I think WOZ has a bad theme. I don't like when people say it without to explain why they feel so about something. You can then refute my thesis if you like.

    Every country has themes that reminds people of their youth. And these themes are myth that hold up the cultural idendity of nations. That's not a bad thing, you often could use these themes for quotes.
    "we're not in Kansas anymore" is a good example for what I mean. Everybody from the US culture knows what these words mean. These words are now a symbol.

    BUT they are totaly specific for US people. Just like Alice in Wonderland is something I believe just the UK people could appreciate. I like the melting pot idea and I like world wide universal themes like AC/DC. And I think WOZ could be a very good theme for the US market. BUT if JJP think that WOZ must apeal to people in the rest of the world, he just is wrong. The people from the rest of the world could like US specific themes. But they must be able to understand the symbols that the theme stands for or use. But woz like my quote above should show you is something very hard to like if you can not understand the cultural symbols. And what makes it so hard, WOZ is full of these specific symbols.
    For an other example Captain America is also a symbol but it's one that people around the world could understand.

    In our global time, if you want to use themes like WOZ you can only be successfull if you translate them to our time and our global world. For example the musical "Wicked" used the WOZ theme but the view point is updated to values that are fresh and universal. And it was something easy to do. In the musical the wicked witch is now the hero and it's about to do the right thing when everybody else say you are wrong. That's an approach in which I think the WOZ theme could stand the test of time.

    But enough talk about the theme, back to the topic. For me Stern for now got the better themes. But I don't know which company builds the better pinball games. And if JJP choose for his next game a theme that could appeal to more people (hint: The Hobbit) all that matters is if it's a good game.

    I wrote to many words, all that I wanted to say was, if it's a good game with a good theme and with a price I could pay for me it's no matter who had built it.

    So a thread with "jjp vs. stern" in it is not important for me. In a thread with "AC/DC vs. WOZ" I would write that AC/DC has very good game play and a super good theme and WOZ got a shitty theme and I don't now about the gameplay, but looks good. So AC/DC (STERN) wins against WOZ (JJP) so far. But it is a silly thing to put the best pinball of a company against the first of an other. The race who is the better pinball company has just started. And for me it's not important who will win. For me just important is that if there is a competition, I as a buyer and player win assuredly.

    #37 7 years ago

    Ah something else, the best witch is a dutch and sings in german language ;P^^


    Long live the witch!

    #39 7 years ago

    I don't have any hard figures on how many WOZ games are going to Europe and Australia, but I believe it is quite substantial, so I'm not sure your right about WOZ being a US only theme. I've always thought of the movie as being pretty universal in it's appeal, only the first and last parts take place in Kansas, the rest is a fantasy/dream world that everyone can relate too

    Quoted from Asael:Please excuse my bad english I would like to explain why I think WOZ has a bad theme. I don't like when people say it without to explain why they feel so about something. You can then refute my thesis if you like.

    Every country has themes that reminds people of their youth. And these themes are myth that hold up the cultural idendity of nations. That's not a bad thing, you often could use these themes for quotes.
    "we're not in Kansas anymore" is a good example for what I mean. Everybody from the US culture knows what these words mean. These words are now a symbol.

    BUT they are totaly specific for US people. Just like Alice in Wonderland is something I believe just the UK people could appreciate. I like the melting pot idea and I like world wide universal themes like AC/DC. And I think WOZ could be a very good theme for the US market. BUT if JJP think that WOZ must apeal to people in the rest of the world, he just is wrong. The people from the rest of the world could like US specific themes. But they must be able to understand the symbols that the theme stands for or use. But woz like my quote above should show you is something very hard to like if you can not understand the cultural symbols. And what makes it so hard, WOZ is full of these specific symbols.

    I don't have any hard figures on how many WOZ games are going to Europe and Australia, but I believe it is quite substantial, so I'm not sure your right about WOZ being a US only theme.

    I've always thought of the movie as being pretty universal in it's appeal, only the first and last parts take place in Kansas, the rest is a fantasy/dream world that everyone can relate too.

    Dale

    #40 7 years ago

    It's not the place Kansas, what I mean was the symbol of kansas stands for "home" and how this phrase is used in modern pop culture. but foreigners could not understand this symbol for home. And it's just an example of many more symbols from WOZ that are now used.

    The ethical values in WOZ are great when it comes to the scarecrow, Lion and Tin Man. But the musical "Wicked" showed were the flaws are in the rest of the story. In our world today only Elphaba (the Wicked Witch) as a fictional character has the power to be a hero. The rest of the original theme: Believe in your self and kick the bad guy/girl in the ass and everybody will sing and praise for what you do are for me just boring. It's good for kids, yes.
    But the nostalgic symbols are working just for grownups in your country. For the rest of the world this theme is outdated and kitschy in a bad way.

    I liked how it was used and translated in movies like "ZARDOZ" or musicals like "Wicked", but i can say I hated it in World of Warcraft. I almost puked every time the WOZ play started in Karazhan
    it was just as bad as Romeo and Juliet. The blizzard game designer used it there because it was kitschy and bad, not because to show how great it is. And it makes a kitschy and bad pinball theme for me.

    I think the animations on the new LCD screen are great and they can be a big step for pinball.
    But when I saw the "Toto escapes" animation I thought how much better would that be if I realy care about the outcome.

    I think some of Steve Ritchie's magic is how he makes shots feel good. It's satisfying to do them. With the right software this is pinball for me. The bell shot on AC/DC is such a thing. The Sandman and Dock Ock in SM and I could go on and on. LCD animations could make such things even better. But come on, let little girls help Toto to escape..... I don't have to like it or think that it's fun....I want quick time events that have more action in them.
    Think of a "God of war" themed Pinball Machine that has the Quick Time Events of the Bossfights and you have to make the right shots. Or something like in "Heavy Rain". That would be cool. I have to care for it. There are great modes and multiballs in LotR. Keith got a talent to such things.
    But I don't know how he can do such things with a theme like WOZ. A lot of people think WOZ is cute and nostalic but I it's not thrilling. The theme is a children carousel, but I would like to have a
    roller coaster.

    #41 7 years ago
    Quoted from DugFreez:

    I've heard they are deep games, but after playing each one (TSPP and LOTR) several time, I have no idea what is going on or what to shoot for.

    Really? What part of "Shoot the left ramp!", "Shoot the quickie mart!", "Shoot the garage!" doesn't make sense? When Bart says "Daredevil ramps" or "Daredevil bumpers" doesn't it make sense that they want you to hit the ramps and bumpers? And then there are always the huge honkin' flashing yellow triangles signaling what to shoot for. I've never seen a game that was more intuitive of what to shoot for than TSPP.

    I've hear other people say, "I don't know what I'm doing on TSPP. I don't like games where all of a sudden you can score huge points and not know what you did.." I don't see this happening on any regular basis in my experience. You can flail around at the ball, yes, like you can on any pinball game, but to score big points, it's hard to do that accidentally. Something as simple as trying to stack more than one TV mode before couch multiball is a major undertaking that is very unlikely to be done accidentally.

    It is true that in a game like TSPP there are lots of different objectives. It's like the Grand Theft Auto of pinball. You can play around randomly and then look and see where you are towards various modes and begin to focus on certain objectives, or you can try for something specific immediately. Maybe the number of choices turns some people off, but I think it's what makes the game so playable over and over in the long run.

    #42 7 years ago

    Do you still like Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings? If we are only talking about pure "theme" they are both pretty much identical to WOZ's "theme", when it applies to the values of the "good guys" as heroes banding together on a journey to kick bad guy ass.

    However, if it's the ruby slippers that people are having issues with as opposed to let's say the force, or the one ring, then that's not really the "theme" is it?

    #43 7 years ago
    Quoted from shock_me:

    Do you still like Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings? If we are only talking about pure "theme" they are both pretty much identical to WOZ's "theme", when it applies to the values of the "good guys" as heroes banding together on a journey to kick bad guy ass.

    Ummm might be a little different in the hero factor here. Luke, Obi-Wan, Han Solo or Aragon, Legolas, Gimli or Cowardly Lion, Tin man and a Scarecrow. Think the first 2 might lend themselves a little better to a "hero theme", not too sure I view the WoZ characters as too heroic or monumentally exciting.

    I am of the opinion on the theme being the only reason I didn't buy WoZ, just not for me. I think the game itself looks very cool with lots of cool features and I am excited for the LCD era to begin but I have found the games I end up selling sooner rather than later are based a lot on the theme not being the best for me.

    So hard to tell really without seeing/hearing a lot of the effects on WoZ, they might be way cooler than a lot of us think. All I can hear in my head is that damn theme music for the WoZ playing over and over and songs like somewhere over the rainbow and munchkin land playing repeatedly, if that stuff is constantly playing in the game it would get old to me real quick as they just don't pump me up too much to play pinball.

    I'm excited to see it once it's done and who knows I may buy a "Pro" model if it is good but just not enough excitement there for me to pre-order.

    #44 7 years ago

    I agree the characters don't seem very tough or strong like the heroes in Star Wars or LOTR, but a theme is a theme is a theme. Maybe they seemed more heroic in 1939

    #45 7 years ago
    Quoted from shock_me:

    Do you still like Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings? If we are only talking about pure "theme" they are both pretty much identical to WOZ's "theme", when it applies to the values of the "good guys" as heroes banding together on a journey to kick bad guy ass.
    However, if it's the ruby slippers that people are having issues with as opposed to let's say the force, or the one ring, then that's not really the "theme" is it?

    The ruby slippers are on backwards and should be zippers, it is click your heels remember?

    #46 7 years ago
    Quoted from tracelifter:

    The ruby slippers are on backwards and should be zippers, it is click your heels remember?

    There's no place like home! Because I've got 15 pins in the basement

    #47 7 years ago

    I had no idea until this morning that Stern charged to pick an LE number. I was told $250-350 was the range depending on the number you wanted. Wow.

    #48 7 years ago
    Quoted from jarozi:

    I had no idea until this morning that Stern charged to pick an LE number. I was told $250-350 was the range depending on the number you wanted. Wow.

    I never knew this. Is it something new they are doing?

    #49 7 years ago
    Quoted from jarozi:

    I had no idea until this morning that Stern charged to pick an LE number. I was told $250-350 was the range depending on the number you wanted. Wow.

    That doesn't sound right... Has anyone else experienced this ?

    #50 7 years ago

    100 to pick your number

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