I play in a league where we drop the lowest score each season. If someone "outperformed everyone every night," he will win regardless of how many scores are dropped or kept. Can you show us the math? It's pretty difficult to win every night and finish second.

Wouldn't missing those 2 weeks give them 0 for each one or at best the last place score? that would seem to be a massive drop from anything he would have scored if they were in second every other time. If one guys gets 50 every week for 10 weeks with a forced 50 dropped, and another get gets 49 for 9 weeks and a dropped zero for week 10 guy one has 450 guy two has 441. if guy 2 misses 2x then hes all the way down to 392. I don't see the issue.

Why would a league seed based on total points rather than average?

not sure who OP is, but that league used to hand out points that scaled based on machine scores.

I remember JM was used once in that league with the scaling in place and one guy figured out the spinner millions exploit and nobody else knew anything about it, so he got 100 points with 16 billion and 2nd place got 3 points with like 300M.

and stainedundies, if you are unsatisfied with watching a league, you can _play_ in the Bat City Pinball League which is starting up again in April and doesn't have the issues you are experiencing and then some.

Agree, dropping your worst weeks points is a bad idea. We started our league that way, mainly due to that's how it worked in the SCCA autocrossing that I did for many years. We did away with that after only 1 or 2 seasons. In pinball it is almost always a bad idea to take away any points that a player earns. Of course you also get the old intentional no show near the end of the season because they know they will not lose anything. We use the FSPA model which allows for pre-plays, so you can score and compete even if you are not physically there. We allow up to 3 weeks to be pre-played in a 10 week season.

ok 65B.. ahh memories.
lulz.png

ha oh hey ray

I'm talking about the regular season. Are you saying the person who won the regular season didn't win finals? That happens almost every year in our league!

If the regular season winner is guaranteed to win the playoffs, why have playoffs?

You said that someone won every night and finished second due to dropped scores. Show us the math.

You brought up playoffs, not me.

Yeah, for that to be possible - wouldn't that mean the person with the most points actually had a lower average than the person in second?

How? What moon math is this?

This makes no sense. If both those players dropped their two lowest weeks, and player one won every night, then they would be in first still. Are you sure you understand the standings after the regular season?

The drop week is also useful if someone can't make one week out of the season. Also good for one of "those" nights Overall has worked well in the league I am in.

Don't forget to check Pinballz's spreadsheet they're using for computing standings. They've been known to be occasionally (cough cough) in error.

Agreed. I don't see how the OP's situation is mathematically possible.
Even in the flawed system of game score point scaling.

I agree on this, also. It's an attempt to increase league participation and acknowledging that there are sometimes planned or unplanned absences. The other solution to this is what Brian is doing for Bat City league (similar to FSPA) in allowing pre-plays with other league player/official present when you know you're going to be absent.

The benefit to Player 1 that showed up every league meeting vs Player 2 who missed X weeks (when you're allowed to drop X weeks) is that Player 1 has more chances to improve their position -- Player 2 is foregoing those opportunities. Typically, one player won't be in first place for each week played.

Don't care for pre-plays but whatever...sometimes it's gotta happen.
One of my leagues We have a % deduction for weeks missed. First missed week 80% of your tournament night average. Second missed is 60% etc etc

EDIT:

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Get one week throw away...not the end of the world.

You have to allow for at least one throw away for the people planning on making every league, but having to miss one or two due to other commitments. Most people in these leagues have families, day jobs, etc. Shit comes up, you shouldn't be penalized for it. If one player wants to just not play on purpose, that is their choice. They are missing out in my opinion, because skipping a week guarantees that your position will not improve. Showing up to league can only help you.

in most any case the tiebreaker would be rounds played or best dropped score, so the guy who showed should still be the winner.

This was the biggest feedback I got after the first year in Tucson. Many players said that they felt stressed towards the end because if they missed one event they were basically out of the running.

When I started things, the league I referenced gave a % of average score based on number of misses. This wasn't something I was ready to set up in my system. So last year was pretty intense.

In the off-season I took a poll and we are now dropping the lowest score. If that is a 0 because you missed, not a huge deal. The benefit is still there for making it to every event because in the end your lowest score will be dropped.

I've never done the math, but have observed in several league and monthly events that if you finish second in every machine, you have a very good change of winning that event. Scoring methods will affect this of course, but in a straight linear scoring event, if you finish second in everything and Keith Elwin is not there, you are going to win. The reasoning is that being consistent is one thing and being good is another. Being consistantly good through a 10-machine linear event is pretty tough.

Ok so for our league in az we play 10 months out of the year and get to drop our lowest score of the year. We only play once a month and odds are that people will have to miss a week for vacation, injury or whatever.

Now should the whole year of the league be lost because u couldnt make it to one event a year? No it shouldnt.

If you miss two weeks your second missed score is like 80% of your average and gets lower and lower the more you miss.

Pre-plays are a bad idea all together. I know some of my machines play different from day to day. One day it is fine and the next day a switch is not working 100% and that could be a huge difference on the scores. Whereas if you are all playing at aprrox the same time u have a much more likely chance of having a even playing field between everyone.

Ability to improve upon your 50-point average by attending all events = good. Player X took advantage of this. Unfortunately, their play didn't improve, so they're still at 50-point average.

Player Y choosing or having to miss a session and miss a chance to improve their 50-point average = bad. They got to play less pinball.

But having a league that is flexible to accommodate crap/life happening = good.
(see dessertT1's comments as well)

Cincy league doesn't drop the lowest score.. hell, we drop the TWO lowest scores. 8 sessions, six count. Much less stressfull for people when they don't have to worry about hitting every round. For the people who show up to all sessions, this gives them the luxury of dumping their two worst days. For those who can't make all sessions, they drop the resulting zeros but at least are still in the running.

I fail to see the strategy of staying home on the last session if you've played all prior sessions. At worst, you score is bad and gets dropped, just like the zero you'd take for staying home. At best, you have your best session and can dump an earlier session and improve ranking.

I am not familiar with the weighted scores but from what I see I do not like it. We use bonus points (4-2-1-0 with two bonus, or 3-2-0 with one bonus) to reward skunkings, but that's about it.

There is a chance you can lose spots but not gain any...really only counts for seeding etc

Although you sound like a super fun person to be in a league with , You seem to dislike the way every league you are in is run. I would advise you to stop playing in them, learn to deal with it, or start you're own league.

At some point you might have to accept the problem may be with you.

In your example, you lost a spot by dropping a week to someone who did not drop. That means you were ahead *even when you had both played the same number of weeks*.

After 7 weeks -

You: 350 points
Them: 349 points

Your final week: 10 points. You drop the 10 points and are still ahead.

You're complaining that the person in first is dropping to second. The only way that is mathematically possible is if the player in first has a *lower average* than the player in second. In which case, you had a lower average - the other player was better than you.

If a player with a higher *average* nightly score, and a higher *total* score is losing a spot by dropping a night, then someone running your league has screwed up the math.

Then it is not possible, in any scenario, for Player one to lose the number one spot

I can assure you, I understand the exact scenario you've described. I can also assure you, it's mathematically impossible.

In the end, you're both being judged by the same number of total scores correct? 7 scores.

If the point total of their best 7 scores (out of 7) is higher than your point total from your best 7 scores (out of 9), then *by definition*, they have a better average than you. Which, personally, I would define as "having played better than you". If you include your 8th or 9th score, which are both lower, then your average will drop further.

Again: I understand your league is based on points.

If player 2 was not already ahead in total points at the point in the season in which they intentionally stopped coming, then there is no way for them to jump ahead.

You're looking at it from the perspective of a top player. What about those poor shmoes who are mediocre players and always get bumped off quickly by the top players?

Once our league added a 2 score season drop, the average players were a lot happier come playoff time because winning wasn't a total impossibility.

That said, your rant still doesn't make any sense. *no one* ever has a perfect season, scoring max points at every league night. But for the sake of argument, let's say you have a 10-week season, and player 1 gets 16 points (I'm used to a 1-4 scoring) for every league night. Your argument is that player 2 could also get the same 16 points a night.

Every league I've seen, though, has group sorting so that the two 16-pointers would end up in the same group the next league night, so it would be *impossible* for both to get 16 points.

The way the leagues are run that I am in..."worse" players *do* jump ahead of "better" players based on dropped nights. However, it's because their 8 best scores after dropping end up totaling higher than the 8 best of the player who didn't drop.

I agree - it's annoying.

The point is to incentivize attendance, which it does. The only way that system can dis-incentivize attendance is if someone is tallying incorrectly.

It just depends on the kind of league you want to run.

Dropping the lowest score is a friendly mostly-competitive way to deal with IRL issues where pinball isn't the highest priority for most people. I honestly have no idea why someone would whine about that unless they were just one of the most hyper-competitive fighters I've ever met.

In the dropping-the-lowest score scenario, there is literally no reason to not show up unless you have a problem. It is not to your advantage, because you can beat your lowest score and improve your overall standings. If you don't beat your lowest score, no harm, no foul.

In a scenario like the league I'm in, if you miss, you get 80% of your average. This is a ridiculous idea that actively encourages non-participation in the last league of the season, and has pretty much every year it's been around.

So, why you're complaining about something slightly more flexible to non-robots, I'm not really sure.

Does your league group players by ability each night? If so, that's even crazier...if you end up seeded in a tough group - just skip and you'll end up with more points than you probably would have otherwise.

Yes and no. The system gives a small boost for attendance - dropping your lowest score(s). You, however, are describing the mathematically impossible situation that is rewarding non-attendance.

Since it's been established (and agreed upon by others in this thread) that the situation above is mathematically impossible - it seems like you just made up this untrue example to prove your point.

I don't see how you're going to get sympathy from anyone here for your fabricated and impossible situation.

Which is a shame, because I've been in a league where I felt screwed by people getting to drop weeks when I didn't - and I felt it made the final standings less accurate. So, I probably would have agreed with you.

Maybe I'll start another thread based on facts.

I was concerned about preplays for that reason. I've been test-driving the FSPA rules with some changes that I thought were needed but I'm going to throw out my changes.
Only two players submitted preplays. 3 players should have submitted preplays but didn't and received zeroes.
One player was not happy with their preplay scores and chose to play the next week instead and crushed it. Had her preplay scores been used she would not have done well.
The other player's preplay scores were used as fodder for the other players in their group to target and he lost that group that week and moved down one ladder. The next week that they missed the scores were unattainable for those in that ladder grouping and his preplays won out and he went back to the top ladder.

Preplays seem like a non-stressful way to keep participation at 100% and there should be a limit on how many can be used.