They have heard the chattah.

I finally gave up on Hulk. I had two and sold them both. The game is nice but at the end of the day I think it became more work than fun. I put the settings on an easier mode which I believe is the reason I ended up selling my final machine. I think Hulk (Avengers) is an excellent machine to own in a 5+ collection OR if it's your only game. However, if you have the 3-5 game range in your collection you'll more than likely end up using it to fund other games.

If it was well maintained, I would play this game on route. But, just not a keeper for me.

Did they even make the full 500? I think there are less then that out there.

250 Hulks and 250 of the blues.
Pretty sure they made all of them, my Hulk is # 189.

I disagree. I don't say things because I want to hear myself speak, I say things that I think are true. Admittedly, I don't play AVLE everyday. I wouldn't want to. I don't know anyone who would. In brisbane I believe the game is universally disliked.

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Did you even read what he wrote? This is a complete red herring on your part.

What's your point? The fact is that he did have it dialed in at times, so he knows exactly how the pin plays. He likes STLE a lot better (it's in a different league as he put it). So your point about him not being able to make a true judgment because his was never dialed in is just plain wrong.

AVLE has 2 very satisfying shots and the Hulk is a great toy (better than the ship), but this is no contest here. STLE is far and away the better game even with the earliest edition code. I like the speed, flow, shots, lights, LE extras, and rules better on STLE. The art and backglass is a push.

The second happiest day of my life was the day my AVLE arrived. The happiest day was when I sold it at only a $500 loss. Just my 2 cents.

For a game that only has 500 (AVLE), they sure are common at pinball shows. Heck, every pinball show I've been to has 2-3 of them, usually a Hulk and a couple of the blues. Thing is, they're for sale. The game is a stinker, and they've had trouble moving it, despite that killer theme. People who bought one are lucky to unload it without taking more than a $500 loss.

Even dialed in, the layout is just bad. Some people might enjoy its quirkiness, but the pool of those fans is a small one, and it seems to be shrinking.

Tracelifter, do have SKBs old Hulk dialed in "at times", or just dialed in? Lol.

But that's not even the point. The point is, SKB was pretty damned enthusiastic about AVLE. Posted videos of himself playing it, went to great lengths to figure out how to improve the rules and sent his ideas to Stern. Went to great lengths - like all of us owners - to get the game dialed in (not easy). Then, low and behold, after months of owning the game, no doubt playing hundreds if not over 1,000s games ( he has a modest collection) and getting to the Wizard mode (yes, set on factory, it takes along time to play the game successfully) he decides to sell it. He gets an XMEN, and gushes over how good it is and thats now gone. Now STLE is his latest game...and it's in a different league. We'll see how long that lasts.

I happen to respect SKB's opinions on pins...but I think that his opinions - like everyone's - will be impacted by what's new and hasn't been played over and over and over. And yet, he's said he's considered re-buying AVLE, especially if it gets a code update. That indicates that he greatly appreciates a game that he couldn't keep dialed in and that many dismiss as a turd. That says more IMO, than the fact that he loves the newest game from Stern, even if he says it's better.

I've had mine almost a year, and it is still the only game that gets played daily. It took me all of an hour to "dial in" as they say. I just call it adjusting stuff that should have been done at the factory. No biggie if you're used to working under the hood. It is definitely a tight shooting game, but it will hone your skills for the easier games.

Obviously this is my opinion, but a lot of criticism for this game seems to come from those who have never either played it enough, played a well tuned example, or even played one at all

It's actually quite simple. It's a title that needs to played for extended periods to get to the best stuff. The stuff that is addictive. And it needs to be played a lot to master the shots you need to make to get to the best stuff. If every time I stepped up to the game I kept bricking the Black Widow ramp and couldn't make the IM orbit, I'd probably stop playing it pretty quickly. And yes, if I played a game where the owner didn't get off his ass and lift the deck and adjust the Hulk switchplate (this is actually so easy that to complain about Hulk hang ups just exposes you as ignorant or a troll) to avoid 95% of the ball hang ups I'd probably get frustrated and not want to play the game. It's ok. I'm not trying to protect the value of my game. I will sell my game and lose money on it. That's obvious and acceptable. What's not OK is people pissing on the game saying its a turd. That's just narrow mindedness, ignorance, or worse.

Oh, I'm 100% "in" BTW.

I'd be 100% in on STLE too if I wasn't full up on pins and unwilling to pay that much for a game.

First off, I sold xmen due to personal financial reasons just as I did with IM, cq taf and WCS. It is why I am at a 2 pin lineup and no longer a 5 pin lineup. Due to a few personal hurdles I had to jump, I had to get picky with my lineup. I enjoy AVLE and xmen very much so and my ratings reflect that.

I was considering purchasing another AVLE especially if a polished code update came out for it. So to insure my confidence in the game and the query of buying one, I sought out an AVLE to play...rare heroes. His was dialed in and played great, but you know what? It did NOTHING for me! After owning STLE, and having this stale experience with a game I enjoyed (AVLE), I came to the conclusion that it's just not worthy to be back in my lineup. STLE really has been an eye opener for me of what I should be allowing in my home collection.

I agree that AVLE is NOT a turd. I still enjoy it, but it's not for my collection, not anymore. And yes, only Time will tell if STLE has staying power. But there certainly is something special about this pin isn't there? The code needs updating and polishing, but still something special about it that I can't quite put my finger on...

The beast shot is the same as the pops shot in Addams and Xavier is very much like shooting thing.. XM and AV get the same play in my collection, which is a lot. Made it to AOTHC over the weekend for only the second time since I've had it, really sweet game. My score wasn't that high at 163 mil, compared to my high of 213, which occurred on a game I didn't get to aothc.

Makes sense. Is that any different than me walking right past every LOTR and SM I see because I've been there and done that? Those are my two favorite machines of all time, and I have no current interest in playing either. Unless there is rules update to AVLE it will leave my collection, because I've seen everything that can be seen now many times and there are too many games I haven't played once.

So fill us in. What's so special about STLE? I'd love to know. And what does it say about what games you should be owning? If it's as good as SM and ACDC (or AVLE) I'll probably get a premium someday. But why now? Are the rules all that yet? The pro is already more fun to me than Mettalica, which I now find a little boring on route...at least with a shiny new ST sitting next door. But this is the new machine. Its supposed to be cool and it is. But aside from the novelty of the warp ramp it doesn't seem special yet (your word, not mine). If you've elaborated on this in an ST thread already point me there and I'll read up.

Dude, i totaly understand and respect that. Same goes for me with LoTR. one of my favorites but i do not want to own one again and rarely will play one if i see it.

I dont know; thats why i said i couldnt quite put my finger on it. The rules need work if this game is going to have any kind of lasting power. But the shots are silky smooth, the warp ramp is addictingly fun, the game is just awesome to look at. It just feels like it had a designer (and company) put forth more than 100% effort into the design and build of the game vs previous sterns.

And just a little history of my past in the hobby. Prior to this last year or so, ive been in the hobby for 6 years and owned 4 pins in that time (LoTR, FGY, SM, BBH). That said, over the last year ive been through AVLE, WCS, SM, RBION, TAF, IM and XMEN. As you can see, its not just NEW SHINY games that attract me. I truly got sucked into the hobby and started acting with an obssesive compulsive disorder. I had no idea; its the nature of this beast. I needed something to knock me back to going to my old ways of buying a pin and sticking with it. The problem is, i think i tried this with all these pins over the last year and none of them really said 'keep me'. Im hoping STLE knocks me off this rut and i can get back to reality. Thats what feels special about this pin. So is that the pin itself or my own psyche? I dont know, but as always, time will tell. This hobby has knocked me around a bit this past year and im tired of chasing pinballs. Not just new ones, but old ones.

I had some non-pin friends over last nite …always interesting to hear their opinions on games. After one guy got done playing a bunch of games & telling me how much he loved Metallica (he couldn't believe it was a newer game…the art made him think it was a classic), he said "Eh, I don't really like Avengers much…it looks like it's based on the movie, but none of the music is from the movie and the voices are all wrong". He wasn't really hitting the shots, and didn't really get any features going. While we're talking, we notice his girlfriend is now playing Avengers - we go over there…she's exactly the opposite! "I LOVE this game! It's so cool! The music is so awesome and the voices are funny…the Tesseract is so cool!" (I have the Zdoor light up cube) …she gets Hulk Multiball and is just squealing with delight, having a great time.

They both liked STLE tho

What all needs 'dialed in' on these? I have been kicking around getting an AV Pro, so I am curious...

Everything here but the bridge and LOKI lock plastic.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-tweaks-have-you-done-to-hulk-le

Hulk plate, possibly hulk arms
Spinner
You need Hooked's clear sling plastics to see the O & K in Loki
2 in. Sling rubbers are better if you don't want the ball to get stuck under
Sling switches like to get bent back - I've found that using the new transparent rubber solves this.
Gotta get Zdoor's cube mod (doesn't affect gameplay but makes the game look 100x cooler)
Gotta make sure Stern's fix plastics are installed (saucer drop, behind Hulk plastic)
Sometimes gotta tweak the metal guide for IM's loop (Cap's entrance) so it goes to the flipper and not to the sling

LE specific tweaks
Gotta get Hooked's new Loki lock plastic…the stock one blocks the Iron Man and Nick Fury shot
Gotta make sure Hulk bridge and BW ramp are level
(My preference) Gotta de X-Mas the game by replacing all green bulbs with warm white (except the ones behind Hulk)
(My preference) Move Hulk's GI spotlight to the left, behind the Helicarrier plastic

Hmmm…did I miss any?

I like the thought of her squealing with delight!

SKB, I know how you feel. My collection is right where I want it, but I feel like totally clearing the decks and trying a whole new slate of games. When I got a Fish Tales I was like "I love the feel of these", different from Sterns in every way. So I got a JM. I love the game, and I LOVE the feel, so I want another Bally/Williams. But then I play a nice TSPP on route and want the deep rules. Then I play ST and want the latest and greatest (I agree, it's beautiful and fun)...but when it sits right next to a minty TSPP - incandescents and all - it doesn't look any more beautiful.

ST all the way. Avengers is dismal and boring as bat shit. Not many people want them it's so bad.

Stabilize the floppy ramps.

That's a new one on me.

Nice.

After playing STLE for the first time this past week, I have to give it the nod. I like Avengers, but damn that STLE game was awesome. I'm not a fan of Trek (though I bet I like the new movies), the game played great and looked just as good. I wouldn't mind having either though

This is just my opinion, and I've only played the pro versions so take it for what it is. ST so far is my favourite recent Stern. Avengers is about my least favourite recent Stern - OK I find Iron Man even more boring but the Avengers I play on route always seem to be riddled by so many mechanical problems that it puts it at the bottom for me. I would never ever consider buying an Avengers at the going rate.

I think now that I've spent at least 20 hours on both games the additional thing that stands out for me is the clarity of the rules between these two. ST seems very easy to understand to me, yet still challenging. I have to admit, I still don't understand Avengers that well. I can hit shots all day long but I'm not sure what it is really doing. I've even had several 900 million range games on a machine on route where the settings were too easy - and I still couldn't figure out what was really going on.

Edit - forgot to add, the one thing I do actually like about the Avengers is the audio, I think they did a good job with it (I've never seen the movies though so don't know if it follows it properly, etc.).

Hitting the wide ramp over and over on my Whirlwind is like shooting free throws, it's fun. AVLE is more like hoops one on one, more difficult to hit the shots but more satisfying. AVLE isn't for a casual game
and you'll be denied if you don't focus. I guess that takes the fun out of it for folks and might explain why so many are for sale. Ours gets the most use probably because its so different,as for dialed in, previous threads exist.

I've owned a Hulk and now own a ST Prem. It's tough. The only reason I sold me Hulk was the plummeting value. I enjoyed it quite a bit. All the shots on it were fun once the game was dialed in. Maybe look at the two centerpieces to decide?

Hulk: He throws a bridge, slings balls back at you, and has a hard to reach Super Jackpot! He's a little oversized for the area he's in. So expect to fix broken plastics here and there.

Vengence: It bobbles when hit, drops lower in the front when beaten, and shoots the ball back at you (notice a trend?)

I'd say the animations are definetly better on Avengers. The callouts are better on ST.. Or are they really? Once you get used to the non-actor voices, Avengers could win here. Hey, maybe I'll just go buy another Hulk and be done with it.

AVLE is the choice for all the girls at our house because of the Tesseract mod. That is all they shoot for it and it lights up and sparkles and they are happy.
Sometimes its that simple and that is a good thing.

Just play more AVLE before you commit to buying one. I have easily put in over 50, probably over 100 games on the game. I knew well before 20 that I didn't like it, but I just kept trying to like it. For a recent release, I can't think of anything more iffy to select as a blind buy or a limited knowledge buy. If you log 20-30 games on it and feel good about it, go ahead. Just know that if you buy on hope and faith and dislike it, you may take a loss on the sale to kick it down the line.

So do you like it or not? I couldnt tell from all you're other posts so far in this thread.

It's the best game based on The Avengers yet.

Whatever you're doing, you're doing right. 900M is twice the best scores I've ever seen anywhere on AVLE.

But in all seriousness, this is one of those titles where the cheerleading section do people a disservice. It's too polarizing to just recommend it outright. There are quite a few safe titles out there, but there are games that definitely cater to a very narrow audience. Rolling the dice that you might belong in the minority isn't the best idea.

Ideally you'd be able to play any game enough to be sure about it. But yeah, I get it. Some of us live where we can't try out every game that looks fun to us or interests us on some level. I'm lucky that I can play most anything enough to be sure about a purchase. For those that can't, certain titles are just hard to recommend to them safely.

Once you get deep into the versus modes the game almost becomes a constant MB, which makes hitting specific shots very difficult for me. My adrenalin gets pumping, I start over aiming I start choking like crazy. I totally agree it's not for the casual player. I'd like to see if Bowen or Keith or Lyman could beat it on the easy settings ( so they could do a video in less than 20 minutes). I'd like to see them pop that black widow ramp with cradle separation and two balls flying around the playfield. That is Avengers to me. Not "the layout sucks, the game blows".

If there was a reward after beating AOTHC and a way to get ball savers and add a ball on both AOTHC and Battle For Earth - with a 2x scoring if you beat BFE - the game would be better. Both wiz modes are tough and make you sweat. You should be rewarded and with current code you are not.

_{Post edited by TheFamilyArcade : Qualifying why the gods would play on "easy".}

Well, to our credit - I think most of us cheerleaders cheerlead with the caveat that you're gonna have to f*ck with the game to get it to the point where it's good. I haven't seen any Pro-Avengers people be disingenuous & pretend the out of the box issues don't exist.

You also have to be a pretty good pinball player. Sunday drivers are not going to get far, and unless the pretty colors of the spinning Tesseract float your boat....

But is there a better sound in modern Pinbsll than hitting the Tesseract Super JP? I'll bet most people wouldn't know.

The good news? Avengers will make you better.

Avengers multiball action is awesome! To me, xmen shines on single ball play while it lacks multiball fun factor; avengers is quite the opposite. And as you stated, the deeper you get, the more multiballs occur.

That sound is pretty dang awesome. I might prefer the sound of the left spinner on a Metallica LE (provided there's a sub to give it proper kick), but it's definitely in the running for more recent sound effects.

The spinner on ST with the flasher reminds me of Gios Tesseract mod. ST is eye candy to be sure.

Well I don't consider myself a cheerleader for this game because I don't sell my games and I don't care about current value. I won't lose I penny lol!
I will say this, which has already been said over and over. If you don't want to take the glass off and tweak three or four things, or if you don't enjoy tight shooting focused pinball, don't buy AVLE

I find that the "Avengers" has a rather flat playfield, with not many toys or ramps rising far above the playfield. In that sense, I find that the playfield has a dated look to it.

The upper playfield of Star Trek looks more like what I expect of a modern machine - a tall and cluttered look.

For that reason alone, I wonder about the longevity of Avengers.

If you enjoy the shots, I wouldn't have worries about Avenger's longevity. It's not an easy game to progress through, so it should remain challenging for a long time. It all hinges on that enjoyment of the "feel" of the game.

I'd really like to stand next to someone playing avengers who doesn't like it to understand why. Enough with the ball hang up crap, it is an easy fix, but people keep harping on it. It's clearly not a good route game, we get that. Those that say its like chopping wood, uh isn't every game that has a good rule set like that? TAF is like chopping wood, so is MM, lotr, TSPP, etc. Isn't this what pinball is all about? Hit more and more shots, build bonuses, get more lights flashing and more whistles blowing. Or do you want something like HS2, where you run the red light in like 5 minutes and there's nothing more. TAF too, tour the mansion, what else is there?

Avengers has tight shots and a deep, but straightforward rule set. There's a lot of shots to hit. Wonder if people even know what the rules are for the cube? Hit it right and it will award many extra balls.

Maybe it is love/hate. I've got over 750 plays on it and still find it very appealing and couldn't even think about selling it.

The code is complete as far as I am concerned, way way more than XM, which is a joke (no extra ball for combos, give me a break). Only thing I would have liked to see on TAV is a rule for the spinner, currently it has no function.

I think some games have a certain immediate appeal that draws the player in to learn the rules. Personally, I find that Star Trek has that, but Avengers does not. After 4 games , I had no interest in learning the rules for Avengers because the shots did not have the "right" feel for me. However, I was immediately drawn in after just 1 game on Star Trek.

This is certainly different for everyone, but I think that first impressions matter, which is one reason why having a machine with a theme that you like can sometimes be worth more than a great rule set.