I hear the designer says the flow "doesn't suck".

I had the STLE on preorder, canceled it after the "reveal" and got an Ac/dc premium instead. I'm pretty happy with that decision Razor.

I've played ST on location several times, tried to like it, just can't get into it.

Maybe the original VUK design would have made a big difference? Kicking the ball into the warp ramp instead of the Lotr VUK.

For me, ST was a disappointment with the tin foil asteroids, bobbing ship/sandman ball lock, "star field projector", uninspiring rules (no Lyman) and no Lcd on a pin perfectly suited for great video clips.

They made too many LE's on the heels of the pre order debacle, raised the price to cut the flippers out and put a lot of the bling in stuff that doesn't matter on the game like the chaser lights and back box lighting.

It looks great though!

Have you played it with the new code?

I always felt the pin was a dud, until the latest code update came along.

Yes that would have made a major difference. If they left that in and didn't do the old bait and switch I think it would be a totally differnt game. And the LE would stand out a lot more from the pro too.

When you have to debate whether a game is top X ... it isn't.

There's always a debate... There are threads saying Medieval Madness and Twilight Zone don't belong there either. You seem like you have an axe to grind. Star Trek didn't make Avengers a stinker, Stern did.

I agree. We should just wipe out the top 15 pins since those are the most debatable. Oh wait, then that would make STLE #1...

The issue is this arbitrary limit of only having 5 games in the top 5. Once we agree to stop only having five games in that category we can get this fixed. I'm sure you're all 110% with me on this one.

It's kind of strange how the only people here actually defending STLE's ranking (or trying anyway) are those who have it in their collection. You'd think you would find tons more of these "top-rated" games on location and there would be a whole bunch of people here defending it and wishing they could find one. Heck, time for another run Stern!

Agree with this as I said earlier. The whole "rankings" should be changed to simply "ratings" and a whole new set of categories and voting should be implemented. People should worry a lot less about where their favorite game is ranked and we'd all enjoy pinball more.

I have a ton of top 20 pins and STLE is maybe the most fun. Some of the repetitive missions hold it back, but it looks, sounds and plays amazing. Should have had an LCD, though. It's fast and exciting and it's also a great pin for novices to play. It's probably rated about right, at 15.

It was the bash targets on TWD that ended up annoying me. I like the other shots on the game.

So I take it you don't like MM either. It has all bash targets, and three of them at that
I also know the location you are playing at and it is a TWD pro, I'm not too fond of the pro version either and the machines on that route aren't in great condition either.

Hey don't forget I've played your dialed in one as well. different strokes for different pinabllers. who knows, it might grow on me, but of course we're all just talking about our current impressions, not absolute declarations.
I think the big difference with the location version is that it requires more hits, aka the chopping of the wood.
MM has one bash target as far as I'm concerned. I'm pretty good at never getting trolls going.

Not yet but will try it again at Pinballz. Plenty of people have said the same thing about the updated code changing the game.

A ha, when you played mine it wasn't dialed in, it was just out of the box, no stern ramp fix installed, no BG light, Ect... I'm just fooling with you anyway.

I'm not sure if it's a top 10 but it's always the big hit when I have people over.

Really.. you think its strange that people would own a game they like?

Please take note that, as of right now, I think Star Trek is great and I don't own it.. yet.

Top 10, top 5, whatever you want to call it, I think its a great game and I want one. I'm about to order a premium. I know a few people that have the LE and for some reason they don't want to part with them, so NIB premium it is for me.

I think you should try playing the current code. That feeling of the level one modes all being too similar and dragging on is long gone.

Star trek is a really nice game. I owned it but didn't qualify as a top 10 pin for me. More like a top 25.

+:
Good sound, modes and their rules, lightshow, artwork, flow, animations, ...

-:
shots are sometimes too easy
besides modes their should be a little more to go for
usage of torpedos could have been better

Things i miss the most are these sounds:
"spock you're ok" & "spock you're allright"
(and uhura talking klingon)

I think the point isn't that people own a game they like but rather that owners tend to "defend" the rankings. If it is at the top they try to justify why it belongs there and if it is near the bottom they attack higher rated machines as a way of explaining away the poor rating of their machine. It certainly feels like people need to justify their purchase or their enjoyment of a game by pointing out how much OTHERS enjoy the game based on the ratings system... who cares, buy it, play it, enjoy it or sell it. People get really huffy when others don't get the same tingle in their special parts playing their beloved (any name) machine and it is pretty silly.

The ranking system is flawed because there are no objective (not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing the facts ) methods or categories by which all machines can be equally judged or at least in ways that people will find meaningful (like facts - how many balls are in the game or how many bumpers or flippers, 2 vs 3 vs 4 etc). That leaves subjective things like sounds, lighting, artwork or game play (like WHY 3 flippers is BETTER than 2) ... things that are based on personal preference not fact.

The OP is excited about his game OK ... let's move on.

I have a pro and played it before and after the latest code. Initially it was such a huge boost to the scoring system that it seemed like a new game but now I'm back to feeling modes are too similar ... you can certainly disagree but it won't make either of us right, it is just my opinion vs yours (subjective).

Owners typically know much more about the ins and outs of a game than occasional players of the game -example eskaybee clearly knows a lot about this game and probably has logged 100s of games on his machine. That is obvious reading some of his detailed scoring setups and mode descriptions. But he seems a decent player with a set of skills above the average player.

As much as ST flows, I feel the rules are the glitch for the newcomer. The newcomer will have a challenging time starting modes and galactic missions let alone trying for 3 in a row or column double shot stacks, or even the awards from repeated warps, because the mode shots and warp ramp are tough shots for newer players and those 3 shots are integral to playing and appreciating the game. Compare the mode start and main ramp to say TAF where the ball will often randomly fall into the chair scoop, and hitting the main ramp for a chair relight is not that uncommon.

Look at Steve's previous game ACDC. The front end candy genius of that game was that essentially every shot, intentional or flailing, on the game was helping toward one of the multiballs. Newcomers are always progressing toward *something* in ACDC whether by skill or luck. Over time, the new player learned tricks and methods to improve their score. The veteran player recognized that there were many scoring strategy subtleties (and they are still figuring it out!). The game has been proven to be well-liked by collectors and tourney players.

I think ST is a very solid game, however top 5 or even 25 for that matter is a high standard to claim considering all of the pinball games in existence. The top tier games are games that consistently draw in newcomers and hold the interest of veteran players at home and in high level tourneys. Time will tell if ST fits that bill.

And yes, I own a ST.

So I just got a STLE on Friday. I have to agree with the people that say all the modes are similar. It's like every single mode is exactly the same. Could someone please explain to me how you see them as being different? Hit the lit ramp, hit the lit ramp. Please someone enlighten me so I can get into the more interesting parts of the game. I think the flow and feeling of the shots is amazing just a little better code support for such a beautiful machine.

Have a quick look on my post here earlier in the thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stle-is-a-top-5-pin-i-know-because-i-know-because-i-know/page/2#post-2549893

The sad truth is the shell of the onion all the missions have a similar appearance; shoot the lit shots. When guests come over, I tell them shoot lit shots during missions - the better you do, the more medals you gain. In between missions, shoot away team or mission start. Very simple right? and a majority of the complaints on this pin are derived from that conclusion. Now, during intermission and sharing a drink I explain to my guests the strategies behind the missions and when is a good time to do which mission. Another easy sample of this for beginners that I show my guests is getting 3-in-a-row awards you a captains chair super mode; and if you can get two 3-in-a-rows lit at the same time, you can have two super modes running. Boom! guest mind exploded already, but the truth is that is a very basic glimpse of a strategy.

Now lets peel the onion further; each mission for the most part has a foundation of what combos are built off of which shots. Here we look at the onion of galactic modes. I tell my guests each mission has 3 separate tiers, in the first tier of each mission you can shoot the away team shot to start that tiers galactic mission (or mode) which increases scoring dramatically and can be used to build progress towards another variable in the game. I also let guests know that once they achieve a gold medal in a tier 1 mission, it will end with a final shot. The tier 1 Galactic missions are as follows:

Prime Directive 1 = Galactic Lanes: Make shots to the lanes - right/left loops count towards goal and medals. Control gates are closed for this mission so loop shots feed the lanes. Lanes = upper flipper feed. Upper Flipper Feed = warps. Warps = good! Basic Strategy; use galactic lanes when you want to build your warp count.

Space Jump 1 = Galactic Vengeance: Shoot the vengeance and mission will be over. Basic Strategy: If played right, can be a 'freebee' mission to progress towards 3-in-a-row or kobayashi because it can be completed in seconds.

Save the Enterprise 1 = Galactic Warps: Shoot the warp ramp - left loop is lit to progress goal and medals. Basic Strategy: Use this to build warp count or if you have double scoring active, start this mission to get a shit ton of points if you can successfully hit the warp ramp repeatedly.

Nero 1 = Galactic Matter: Shoot matter targets. Basic Strategy: use this mission with multiballs to rack up points.

Destroy the Drill 1 = Galactic Spinner: Shoot the spinner - left loop & left VUK count towards goal and medals. Basic Strategy: Use this mission to build warps. The 'final' shot of this galactic mission is the left VUK and it awards a TON of points, more than any other mission. Hit it!

Klingon Battle 1 = Galactic Ramps: alternate left/right ramp. Basic Strategy: Use during double scoring for loads of points. Best if stacked with Galactic Ramps too! Or Vengeance MB since ramp shots count towards vengeance.

The next strategy to understand is beginner to intermediate. Now that you understand there's 3-in-a-row horizontal, lets look at 3-in-a-row vertical. Completing 3 tier missions vertically will award a 2X shot on the pf for the remainder of the game. These 2X multipliers are as follows:

Prime Directive: Left VUK
Space Jump: Right Loop
Save the Enterprise: Right Ramp
Nero: Left Loop
Destroy the Drill: Warp Ramp
Klingon Battle: Left Loop

With that said; lets peel the onion a little further and start to look at more intermediate to advanced strategies. This is where stacking comes into play. Do you want to play each tier 1 missions galactic mode in a linear fashion and get a basic 10-15 mil score per mode? or do you want to double, triple, or quadruple that potential?

Save the enterprise Tier 1 GAT mode (galactic away team mode) is warp ramps and left loop. So if you want to maximize stacking, you could drill down destroy the drill to light the warp ramp 2X multiplier and maximize galactic warp shots. But wait, thats not all! the left loop is also lit for galactic warps, so you could essentially drill down NERO and light the left loop 2X also. But hold on just a minute... you may want to drill down NERO before DTD so that you can light the left loop, then capitalize on DTD's GAT mode doing galactic spinner. You're average score will rocket through the roof following this stack. Here's an example of how i would play out this strategy even further:
1. Start NERO 1
2. DO NOT Play Galactic Matter; keep the mode active in its generic form
3. Focus on left loop > warp combos. The game just started; time to build that warp ramp.
4. Also focus on lighting your locks and vengeance mb.
5. Start NERO 2
6. Start one of the multiballs based on #4.
7. Complete NERO 2 during multiball.
8. Start NERO 3
9. Nero 3 is based on two targets associated to your flipper buttons. THe right flipper moves one target counterclockwise while the left flipper moves the other target clockwise. Once you get good at this mission, it can be completed in just a few shots! or you can maximize scoring and medals by stacking the two shots on top of each other.
10. Start DTD, start Galactic Spinner
11. By now you should have warp 9.1 ready; start it with Galactic Spinner. And, start a multiball if you have one ready.
12. Focus on Spinner and left loop shots. When DTD is down to the last shot, aim for the left VUK - you can get upwards of 6-10 mil for this shot alone > double it if you can combo. and hey, if you wanted to, you could have drilled down Prime Directive missions to light the VUK 2X but i dont want to blow your mind quite yet.
13. Start and play DTD2 in single ball mode.
14. Start and Play DTD3 in single ball or multiball mode.
15. If you did not get 9.1 warps started in #11. Nows the time to do it. Start STE-1 and start galactic warps. Start double scoring and if you can make left loops and/or warp shots you will see an insane amount of points come your way....my record is somewhere around 85million on this one stacked mission alone (i wish there were galactic mission high scores saved).
16. if you want to press your luck or wait til you have a warp ramp double scoring ready for galactic warps and get two 3-in-a-row captains chairs; you can do the freebie space jump galactic vengeance mode real quick followed by a prime directive galactic lanes. Keep in mind galactic lanes benefits from NERO-3 completion and having that left loop 2X opened up, so take advantage and hit that left loop to lanes!!
17. After cashing in this stack, it may be a good idea to start thinking about cashing in some medals! Do whatever is needed to complete the grid and get kobayashi going. You have probably played vengeance 1 at this point, so it may be a good time to do Klingon Battle 1 for the final pyramid mission and ignore the mode for the most part and start vengeance 2...why? because you probably need an extra ball at this point! Vengeance 2 = extra ball if you can do it.
18. Start Kobayashi
19. Play Vengeance 3 for a chance at 10/20/40% of your TOTAL SCORE.

Thats just a glimpse at the possible strategies to play in Star Trek. Look for other possible mission stacks and strategies on your own, there are literally dozens! This tutorial may seem like it was written very quickly and thats because it was! Im at work typing this on my lunch break.

Stay tuned for an in depth look at each tier 2&3 mission and the combos that surround those missions and which playfield multipliers stack well with them as well as which ones should be played on single ball vs multi-ball. Until then, play better...!!!

Awesome! You should write the manual for the rules, print them out in a book, and Pinsiders will buy it from you.

NO Crap !!! I never thought of it this way. Guess the only thing to do now is to play more pinball.

I just shoot for the flashy lights. .....I fall in the beginner category

Top 5 is pushing it, but ST is certainly near the top when it comes to pulse-pounding energy. The lights, sounds, call-outs, and kinetics really push the adrenalin to a level that few other pins not named AC/DC can equal.

Want.

eskabee played well !!! it was time to explain a little to all those who say that the modes are the same.
it takes a little time but now they can not say that lol.
Strategie you were told.

one must be blind not to see that the tasks are different. definitely a lack of practice. yes you have to go to the same place but it alters the other next shot. the multicolor insert serve a few things lol

Knowing engage the right mission at the right time. as this rarely happens as we want it to improvise and change constantly strategy. this game is incredible.
1.1 billion for me. Totally agree for a backup high score per mission. I took 115 million on Save the enterprise in 10 seconds. immense joy. bluffed friend

Other. warp ramp 9.1 + Kobayashi = Youhouuuuuuuu

those who have not understood that this is a great pinball, hurry because when Stern no longer manufacture
Search star trek but not for sale. Why?

exactly alveolus. Adrenalin.

Star trek is definitely BOOM BOOM

Have you given any thought to writing the rules down? Do you think there will be more goodness in the rules department?

Can we just change the name of the thread to the "ST owners trying to convince themselves their game is special" thread?

I don't know if it was meant as a joke, but you got to admit, that was pretty funny

Of course, just some respectful teasing. As I say all the time, I just hate rankings altogether and everyone should feel free to love whatever game they want. No matter how wrong they may be, lol.

it's good war pinchili.
but a owner of WOF, shrek, avengers, transformers, scared stiff and POTC who does not like Star Trek does not surprise me
that made good title
logic made

+1 for your insight being a playing guide. I have seen a couple of your posts and needed more detail but the way you explained above makes it digestible. It is a fun approachable game and with your help it could be even better. Please consider it.

Alan

We already know the game is special...

What other Stern LE comes with as much bling as Star Trek?

Dude, you are single handedly bringing this game to the people.

I'll be in touch with your partner and see if she wants to host again, give it another whirl.
If it's anywhere close to how good your X-Men and Tron machines are, maybe I'm ready to re-evaluate my position.

Yes, and of course people who really love a game will defend their opinion of it. My point is just that most intelligent people (and I honestly think that is the vast majority of people around here) become, and stay, owners of games because they like the game, not the other way around. I don't think those feelings about the game are suddenly invalidated when they buy it either. I just think its a bit presumptuous to assume that owners usually defend their high opinion of a game just because they are looking for validation or to protect its value.

We don't have to convince ourselves. Facts are facts.

Other people have sour grapes....

I can't fault your strategies, they are well thought out, sound scoring methodologies. I do appreciate your efforts to write them down. I played them last night and can't really disagree with anything as far as scoring BUT

Sorry, no matter how far you peel an onion it is still an onion . It doesn't matter to me if the loop to warp ramp is worth 100,000 or 1,000,000,000 it is the the same shot (I can't imagine enjoying hitting 20-30 warps in a game it is just so repetitive ). You even listed them in the 2x multipliers: loop-ramp-loop-ramp-loop ... how is that not the same shots over and over? AND the shots are tight while you up against a timer which is very challenging. Challenging =/= fun for every player. I'm missing the "fun factor" that comes from variation ... high scores are great but for ME (I'm sure I'm not alone but certainly in the minority) frankly I'll have more enjoyment on low scoring EM with a fun layout than a complex DMD almost every time (and I say that as an AC/DC owner who can't imagine selling it ).

__________________________________________________________________________

I own an ST Pro ... I don't take it personally that it is well down in the rankings. I'm curious why you think intelligent people need to defend the position of a game in a arbitrary ranking of subjective qualities, why does it matter if the game they enjoy is ranked 1 or 100 if they bought it to enjoy??

_____________________________________________________________

Except there are no actual "facts" (objective) involved ... everything in the rankings is opinion (subjective). The real sour grapes come from the owners who can't live with a ranking lower than they believe a game deserves NOT from non-owners bashing the game.

I always get a ride out of these threads..Personally at this moment in time im in total agreement with the OP. ST was the first NiB game I was totally excited about. Within six months +/- I was willing to trade it off. I couldn't make the deal I was hoping for and hung on to the pin. Alast the last code came out and my opinions of the game changed drastically. It is now my go to stern pin. If im able to get two or three game in in a jaunt to my gameroom, you can bet STLE is getting played. Its also one of the few pins that are worth cranking up the volume and getting an adrenaline rush on a good game.

For me its a keeper now in a collection that is still evolving.
So to the OP I-know-because-I -know

My response was to Pinchilli, not to you.

There's repetition in every game. But part of the point I was trying to make is that The game is based on flow and combo structures and those combo variables turn different directions with each mission. And sometimes the mission or strategy calls for a more stop and go style of play. So while you were focusing on left loop + warp combos one minute; the second mission should have been more of a trap + shoot style with mini combos and the third mission is a little more challenging determining whether you should make right loop shots, drop target hits, or left VUK. The style of the game changes as you progress.

Now if you want more relevance with the warp ramp, try starting in STE and start off the game with galactic warps. Now you're building warps and doing a mission associated with it. Still down to STE 3 and light that right ramp. Granted STE 2&3 are very similar which I mentioned earlier. But they are safer missions compared to others. No real time restrictions. After STE3, drill down KB. It's another easy mission string to complete fast based in good play. Don't forget to do galaxtic ramps with that right ramp 2X multiplier from STE3. After KB3 you have the right ramp/left ramp multipliers lit and are setup for things like super ramps, vengeance mb which benefits from those Ramps, and Klingon multiball. Not to mention any shot to the ramps now awards 2X without needing it to be combo'd so you can slow the game down and focus on safer methods of play if you wish.

So now you see you had one strategy (original post) that focuses on left loops and warps. Now this new strategy I just mentioned is based in ramps and using both your bottom flippers for combos and not so much focusing on warps. The interesting part is when you have a fantastic gameand get to incorporate even more types of combos and strategies.

ummm OK ... are you saying I'm not allowed to respond to something you said in one of your posts unless it is directed to ME specifically?? hmmmm that makes a discussion forum sort of pointless but I took out your quote if that makes you happier .

Shoo!

I agree there is repetition in most games and I'm trying to get past my issues with ST but hey we all have our likes and dislikes. Once again a big thumbs up for you efforts

Agreed - It can be fun to rank things "Top 10", etc. but many times it gets a little too competitive and obviously it's very subjective.

Between myself and my friends, I prefer to rank games like grades: A, B, C, D, F adding + and - to be more specific. This provides a total of 15 different levels (A+ thru F-), and tends to help people be a "little" less defensive. You can classify as many games as you want as "A" games without pushing X is better than Y. And for the ones you really think are the best: "A+"

So let me just say for me: ST (all versions) is an A-, not an A+, but definitely an A game. Before the last code update I gave it a B+, but it moved up