Far too true Stevie That's why I didn't say HIGH standard

He's a devil.

rasRitchieDev.jpg

Love it!

Ah that's ok T_G. Blondie picked that up from Al Garber way back and has been carrying the torch ever since. It's a term of endearment from storied days long ago.

There is no better feeling in the world than when you try to act superior by making fun of someones spelling/typing then realizing you're just not in the know. Oops!

embarrassed-gorilla.jpg

When I used to read RGP, cody was very outspoken and combative at times. No question a smackdown was warranted. To a degree. I met Steve twice and he is a genuinely nice and passionate person. No question he is a Fantastic designer - F capitalized to stress one of my favs.

Being a professional, he stepped a little over the line and did over react. IMO. The "Huckster" comment was insulting and plain rude. It deserved a stern (not the company) response. But, Steve could have slapped him down in a more elegant way than stooping to his level in name calling. I respect Steve's work and the man is cool, but if I posted a response like that I'd expect my friends to be honest and call me out. Steve was a big man and apologized after so it's all over. But guys, don't put our heros on a pedestal and claim "only human" when they step over. Just like "only human" if they step over the line a tad we need to call the game fair.

Bottom line cody got the message. All good.

Thanks. Maybe someone will listen to you. I'll save a spot over here in the odd-man-out corner just in case though...lol.

No, you weren't wrong Cliffy. But saying Steve is just like us common folks is vastly understating just what kind of guy he is. I don't need to tell you. He really is a one in a million. Hardly a regular guy.

The passion and all the assorted characters in this hobby is what I really love about it. Not a lot of ordinary average guys in this hobby. I hope all the new folks are taking notes.

I know where Steve is coming from. In the early 2000's, my company made a product that many of you have in your homes, connected to your TVs. It was so popular, someone started a Google Group for it. As the UI software manager, I liked getting real-time feedback, and knowing which problems were causing the most heartache. However when I read things like "the software manager should be FIRED!" it kinda pissed me off, especially since we were working 12-14 hour days at the time. It's probably a good thing that company policy prevented me from replying. Like the Guido the pimp says: "you do NOT f**k with a man's livelihood!"

_{Post edited by gweempose : Edited the "F" word.}

Ok Mike I'll give you he's one in a million But you and I both have hung around with him for a long time and you learn fairly soon that he really is one of us reg'lar folk. His talents make him unique but his every day walk is just like ours. And that's why he's so comfortable to be around.

You're dead on with your last comment too. Thank God almighty for the individuality in this hobby. See you at CAX, Mike!

What's the name of the topic?? It keeps sending me to some "similar post" crap.

Nice! Put a guitar in his hands and it'd be just about right! Not many know but Steve is a helluva git-tar player too

In regards to SR's post about CC, i can feel his pain. CC is one of the reasons i stay away from RGPee. I pretty much pulled way back on my involvement in pinball thanks to guys like him. So I understand what SR was thinking when he did the post. SR is more public than me though, and represents Stern, so perhaps his post was more caustic than it should have been. But Borg isn't really any different (maybe worse) in these terms. I'm frankly surprised that Gary Stern allows these guys to post at all.

I posted this to RGP but in just a few minutes, regretted it, and removed the post (via google groups, which admittedly, doesn't fully remove it from the "world.") But anyway, here's the post, it may provide some perspective on rubber and games today.
==========================

as many know, I don't post to RGP any more. But for this, i will make one exception. I can offer some facts on rubber that perhaps a lot of people don't know. You all may find it useful in rubber choice on games.

First off, rubber today is WAY different than rubber from the past. Since the end of "ABC" rubber (which Williams had a good share), things have changed in the world of pinball rubber. ABC rubber was the standard by which all other rubber was and should be compared. It was perfect rubber in terms of durometer and durability. I think most people will agree on that (at least those that remember ABC rubber.)

Today, largely, there is really just one maker of rubber in Taiwan. They hold the molds for Terry (Pinball Life), Steve Young, Marco, and the other guys that make rubber. So when you buy Pinball
Life rubber and you see "PL" on the rubber, it's really no different than the other brands (generally speaking, though there are some exceptions.) Same formula, just they use the molds belonging to whomever is ordering rubber.

That said, today's White rubber is absolute trash. SR is quite right that putting white rubber on games today is suicide. Today's white rubber is way too soft. It has no longevity, and comes apart quickly. (about 3 weeks white mini-posts fall apart or rip, and slingshots tear and fall apart.)

I operate games, and frankly I can't use today's white rubber. For games in your home, I'm sure it's fine. But out in the "commercial world", new white rubber is junk. The formula is bad, improper, and useless, in my experience. It's way too soft and way too white, and just wears really poorly. For your game room it's soft and spongy, really white, and probably works well for the 100 to 200 games you'll put on your machines in a year. But out in the field, new white rubber does not work in high play environments.

I've discussed this with Terry at PL. He doesn't want to change things. His customer base is home owners, and they like the soft-like-bubble-gum white rubber. So after considerable whining to Terry and Mark at Marco by Tim Arnold and myself, Marco has come up with a NEW formula for white rubber. We've been testing it for Marco, and I have to say, it's a HUGE improvement over the stuff everyone else is selling.

So is the new Marco rubber better than ABC rubber of old? Frankly, no. I would say the new Marco rubber is a lot like the HAPP and WICO rubber of 10 years ago. Not amazing, not perfect, but miles ahead of the stuff everyone else is selling today. I've found it far more durable on my games.
I believe Tim Arnold is getting about the same results too. Hats off to Marco!

Now a little about the history of rubber. You'll ask how i know this useless crap, but i *collect* white rubber. I have stock piles of ABC rubber from 15 years ago, brand new, stored in ziplock bags, in dark cabinets. I also have Wico, Happ, and a few other brands offered over the last 15 years. I have this stuff in huge qualities too, so i can test and compare today's rubber to the "rubber of old." (It gives a nice point of reference, as I have about 10,000 pieces of white rubber in inventory.)

I also have some black rubber too from years ago, but not nearly the quantities to do much testing. I will say this about black rubber today, it's better than black rubber of old. Today's black rubber is actually pretty decent. Hence SR's usage of it today is really not a huge factor. Personally I like (vintage) white rubber better than today's black rubber, but that's me. I completely understand why SR uses black. I mean I don't like it, but given the choice of today's black versus today's white rubber, black wins in durability by miles. It still looks like hell though - clean white rubber will always win in looks. (Sorry SR.)

I will say this though. We are operating all the new Sterns, including SR's titles. And they all have vintage white rubber on them. People come play them and are like, "Wow this game is really
different, i like it!" The games play more difficult, with different bounce properties. Spiderman is the perfect example. With black rubber, I find game times to be fairly high (in excess of 5 minutes.)
Switched to vintage white rubber, and game times are about 3 minutes. The game is a lot harder, and frankly a lot more fun! Personally i like that, but that's me. Some people find it more frustrating, but in the end, that just means they play more games!

We also use vintage ABC rubber on a lot of our games (both Tim and I have some inventory of original ABC.) It's still the standard that all others should strive. But I've largely moved to using vintage ABC on EM games only, and use vintage white Happ and Wico (etc.) on the solidstate games. The only "new" white rubber I use (other than the Marco stuff) is mini-posts, as i have NO old inventory of white mini posts! This really sucks because today's white mini-posts last about 3 weeks. PLEASE TERRY LISTEN.

I hope this helps everyone. I won't do any follow up posts to this. I just hope it helps. Also if you could all support Marco and his new flavor of white rubber, I think that would be good move (the price of his new rubber is no different than existing white rubber.) When ordering you have to talk to Mark about getting it, the new Marco white rubber is not the "default" rubber that he sells.

I knew something was different than my home setup, but couldn't put a finger on it. It's quite noticeable... and challenging. Thanks for posting.

He's a nice man. Been into pinball a very long time.

Witnessed a lot of changes in pinball through the years.

LTG

That point is arguable. I personally find him pretty abrasive. But he's always had a problem with me.

@CFH-

That was the most comprehensive, informative write up on pinball rubber. Glad Marco listened to you so there is a place to get the better quality stuff.

I think most people change out their rubber for aesthetic reasons, so pointing out that each vendor carries different white rubber is a great benefit.

Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the rubber info, I wasn't aware of how much the rubber has changed!

And cody chunn has followed pinball for awhile and is relatively knowledgable, but he comes across as very dismissive, know-it-all and just plain smarmy on RGP. I've given it to him a couple times in the past about like Steve did, and I felt he deserved that smackdown. I found the whole thing pretty funny and cody I'm sure feels like crawling in a hole right about now. LOL!!

My experience with Steve Ritchie has been positive, but him saying something like, "Really, you need to get your sorry $$ to mental help and hope we never meet in person." just because someone criticized him, is IMO, an escalation more than might have been warranted.

Although the visual of Steve Ritchie whipping someone's ass at a pinball show would be priceless.

Now that would be a cool documentary video at Expo. One camera follows Cody another follows Steve. What will you do if you see Cody? Steve? Trash talking with industry and hobbyist friends on both sides. The eventual meeting - Steve starts taunting in his Shao Khan Mortal Combat voice then points to a screen where this is played:

Cody pulls out a bag of white rubbers and starts taunting "white not black Steve". Suddenly blinded by a BDK that was just turned on with Cointaker LEDs a slightly intoxicated Ben Heck jumps in between them with his zombie glue gun. With a group laugh everyone decides it's only pinball and goes into a main ballroom where LTG is dropping F bombs about the good old days. I'd pay good money for that.

All in fun gang.

When I first started that thread in RGP, I never in a million years thought it would blossom into this. I'm not a Cody fan and was REALLY pissed when Cody made his post in what was up until then a non-combative thread. I bit my lip until SR chimed in with his awesome response. I think Cody has learned a lesson. I will point out that Cody chimed in later and apologized. While I think he deserved the smackdown he got, I think things have gone overboard now. We should all quit piling on while he is down.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that SR handed out smackdowns to Gary Arizona and Pinballjim years back. Neither one of them apologized and in fact both lashed out like the little babies that they are and got even worse in their assaults on Steve. At least Cody has the humility to back off when he was called out.

To get back on the original topic... I did go ahead and install white rubber on my BiB. I think it looks great along with the Pinbits plastic protectors. The game play has not changed a lot. The white is a little more bouncy, but as I mentioned in RGP, the new Stern black rubber is really bouncy too.

Here is my photo album. The last 8 or 10 pictures show the white rubber and topper. (yes, I fixed that sling shot switch before playing the game...)

https://picasaweb.google.com/117854656125087315135/ACDCLEBackInBlackUnboxing?authkey=Gv1sRgCJK62qDIluamvgE#5762622537622284546

John

I once got Cody'd by a teacher in middle school. Still feel the shame all these years later...lol

I wouldn't mess with Steve Ritchie. That man-purse he carries is probably a lethal weapon when properly wielded

This is one of the dumbest, dipsh*t, dorkiest threads ever...........

Clay,

Is that the same with the red flipper rubber? I had this post a while back:

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/where-do-you-get-the-best-red-flipper-rubbers

I find the same thing with red rubber. It's garbage and wears at the tips in a week's time of home use for me. I have some red rubber, but I'm not sure where I got it, that is clearly different.

Is there anywhere that you can get the good stuff?

I haven't done a lot of analysis of red flipper rubber. i have like 1000 pieces that i bought about 10 years ago. It seems to wear a lot better than the red available today. So i would guess they have made the current red flipper rubber too soft. But i only have one brand of "vintage" red rubber for comparison, so it's hard to draw conclusion based on that small sample size.

HAHAHAHA - someone should send that to SR.

Pinball Bash is the audience

Interesting regarding the old rubber. Some of the old stuff I pulled off a recently purchased EM was ABC rubber. It was yellow and a little hard, but by and large, was not disintegrating into white rubber dust flakes like wico rubber seems to do when I've pulled it from even mid 80's games...so obvious difference in how it wears.

I haven't had any other rubber than PBL's white and PBR's white. I can't tell a huge difference between the two, but I can say that if Marco is significantly more expensive for this new rubber, I really won't give a crap and shell out the extra money for a home game. I'm glad they are able to help out you guys that are still running routes though. It would be awesome if the guys that sell this crap would have their product tested and actually list the expected durometer so that we would actually have a basis for comparison, since us noobs don't have warehouses full of old rubber.

PBL's 3/16 almost always split on install.

That's my experience as well. Well, at least 50% of the time anyway.

What's going on there?

PBlife and PBresource get their rubber from the same source. it's the same formula, there's no difference, they just pour it with different molds. Marcos new rubber (as stated in my post) is the same price as their standard rubber. current PBL/PBR white rubber basically is way too soft and tears very easily and doesn't wear well. this is why we (tim arnold) asked Marco for a new white rubber formula.

I have no idea. It happens 75% of time with me. I have never said anything to Terry about it though.
He sends me stuff all time time because i forgot them in the basket so i have never really said anything. Good guy he is.

Clay thats great but until its on the site lots of people wont be bothered to call.

Sorry dude, I missed that. Your post was kinda long and I'm at work.

I might give their stuff a shot. I need some parts and PBL and PBR both closed for a few more days...might just make a small order with Marco. *edit* on the PHONE.

_{Post edited by Frax}

OMG i cant believe a little dissagreement has generated this thread lol
You know i dont know this cody guy but you know this is a creative hobby and people whom are in it are passionate
i dont like things about stern maybe not things about alot of games either but to each his own just like others might not like things I do or like myself.
i think the problem here is some critism is given and oh well might not have been the most polite not that i have read it or anything personaly
but you know criticism is good or designers is also a good thing it is what helps them improve.
I know steve Ritchie is a good designer but hes not a hero there were many good designers over the years too but at the end of the day hes just another designer doing his job and honestly he is getting old and perhaps his designs are not as creative as they once were either not saying hes lost his touch but i think some of the respect should also go to some of the other designers as well.

What about Jersey Jack and his team they have been going completly out of the box with his machine design and programming where to my understanding Stern is going to roll with the same system and programming and have no intentions of redesigning the current system and software
steve is a great designer but how many times can he redress the same machine before its just same old crap different art and layout
Perhaps some of the flaws and dislike of his newer machines isnt him as much as Sterns role in these machines???

So far its been the right amount of times and hoping for more! : )

Holy run-on sentence, Batman!

There is only so much you can do, Steve cannot change the laws of physics.
An outer loop is an outer loop, there are only so many angles of attack for the ball, it goes up the ramp and down the ramp either straight or through a series of vertical or horizontal s's or trans-versing the PF.
Some games are stop and go and you can eat lunch during captures and animations, others are so fast and non stop (No Fear) you need a beer helmet if you want to drink while playing it.
Respect does go to other designers but they also have to work within these parameters.
A new designer on the scene will have the same limitations, chances are anything they can come up with will have already been done by others.
When I first got into the hobby I didn't pay any attention to who the designers were, I played games and if I liked it I looked for that title.
When I did take notice from others posting about various designers and checked out who designed my games every one with the exception of the two free games I got that got me started in the hobby and TAF every one of them was a SR title.
When I met Steve we didn't talk a lot about pinball, we talked about the need for speed and the motorcycles we had owned.
We both had V 65 Magnas, those bikes really motored in the time they were built.
You could get a speeding ticket in 1st gear on this bike.
There is an old saying, do what you love and you will never work a day in your life and at the end of the day Steve nailed that one also.

Not after they read this thread it won't be

Clay's insight explains a lot. I wondered WTH was wrong with my brand new white rubber that is seemingly so delicate. My next bulk order will come from Marco. Thanks again, Clay... I miss your voice in he hobby and glad you chimed in here.

I purchased a bunch of rubber from both Mad and PBL and it is all soft.. the white on my IM slings ripped in a few weeks and the small post rings sometimes split as you put them on. Red rubber i recently put on my SM feels like a trampoline compared to black.

I was surprised that I actually learned something in this thread. The problem is, all this great info from Clay is practically hidden in among the bitch slapping remarks.

SR was very nice to me the few times I corresponded with him. From what I understand he is near deaf. His aloofness may be from you not speaking loudly enough. Coming from a person who now needs a hearing aid (but won't wear it) if I can't follow a conversation, oftentimes I just go into la la land, smile and nod.

Clay, could you PLEASE start a new topic with the ring rubber info? I could do it but feel wrong about it since it is your info.

Friendly recommendation - wear the hearing aid. I was diagnosed last year and forced myself to wear them. They said my test results were what they would expect out of a 70 year old not someone in their 40s. Hard to adjust for first 4 months but worth it. I got tired of just smiling and nodding and missed too much. Better to hear and contribute than be a bystander in life. Just sharing in hopes it encourages you to wear the aids. Best.

We are definitely not on RGP. Folks would have showed up with tourches and pitchfolks by now.

Announcer's table doesnt always imply "safer"

For those who didn't catch the follow-up on the SR-CC smackdown, all ended well. Apologies and clarifications from both sides.