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Steve unleashed! While his last few games are fun it seems pretty clear that his designs are held back by budget restrictions.
I don't see how JJP can work though with 3 designers when they put out 1 pin a year. Could this mean that Pat's next game, likely Toy Story, may be his last?
What titles would you like to see Steve make for a JJP pin?
Personally would say Back to the Future (however Stern may already be doing this one, rumor), and a new Indiana Jones pin that covers all 5 films.
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Yes, also known as clunk and thunk since that is their main shot.
Here we go again from one of the main JJP bashers. There's plenty shots in both of those games, WOZ especially. Not every layout needs to be just 2 standard ramps, 2 orbits, and little on the playfield. Learn to make the shots and then the clunk and thunk will stop 
Quoted from metallik:oh FFS dude give it a rest. Both of those games are known for crummy playfield layouts and lots of targets. I think they both suck but OTOH I think DI and Wonka shoot like butter (when the flippers work properly)
NOT EVERYONE WHO CRITICIZES THESE GAMES' BAD PLAYFIELDS IS A JJP BASHER
You are like the worst broken record on here these days.
You are another member of the regular JJP bashers, have been for a long time. It's old. Can't even compliment DI and Wonka without making a snide comment to go along with it...sigh.
That would be cool! Always enjoyed F14.
Not every game needs to insanely fast to be considered good. There's plenty of high flow games that are not well regarded. Sometimes non stop action gets dull and often prevents moments in the game from occurring. Personally I think its nice to have a blend of flow and stop and go.
With WOZ there's so many different things to shoot at including a variety of targets, shots that drop into / pass through an area, and 2 upper playfields with their own shots (1 having a hidden shot behind the castle doors). The player can focus on different areas of the game that correspond to specific goals. Want to go after Crystal Ball modes, go for hitting the BALL standups. Want to go for Munchkin modes, then hit the RAINBOW targets to light the upper left mini playfield. Those are are just a couple of the areas and on top of that you can then stack the Crystal Ball and Munchkin modes with other modes for bigger points. Attempting to earn the 4 emeralds throughout a game is a lot of fun as it acts a reward feature for completing goals, something very few games do. Hell, then if you even get the 4 emeralds and reach the Wicked Witch wizard modes you can also go after the 10 or whatever diamonds in the game to reach the super wizard mode.
What I mentioned above is the fun of WOZ and I wouldn't substitute a mini playfield or a mech for another ramp just to add more "flow". What JJP did with WOZ is incredible and hell the game is still receiving code updates 8 years later. WOZ is a modern TZ in my opinion, is loaded with fun toys / mechs, has a ton to shoot for, and has one of the deepest rulesets in pinball. I'm sure some people will disagree and that's cool...but I'll go to my grave saying those things lol.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:don't feed the trolls
Now taking full advantage of the ignore feature, the peace and quiet is nice It's a great time saver as well, the ignored users can now argue and throw insults at a brick wall.
My goodness, bitterness is on full display by some of the usual Stern fanboys. How many more times do you have to post the "JJP games are no fun" type comments? Lol. Same crap.
Don't worry Stern fanboys, be happy. With JJP The King is now unleashed!
Quoted from cscmtp:I'm with ya, I won't be buying any JJP pin anytime soon. Have plenty of money, the problem is I also have plenty of brains
Is it true you bought Hobbit again? Great game, excellent choice! Totally different game today versus early on thanks to those final few huge code updates.
Quoted from cscmtp:Sure I'd buy Hobbit for $2k. Isn't that about what they are going for now? LMAO
Better add a good $6k - $8k and sure!
Quoted from Crumbalimb:So now if we can get Eric to leave JJP for stern, we can see more games from him. I love the old guys and they are great but the new younger guys make ,how should I put it, newer ideas and design to pinball. JJP games are awesome but one every 2 years is a long time to see anything from Steve and probably four years out to see anything else from Eric.It's impossible to say no to Steve, but I just don't see JJPs need for another designer unless Pat is retiring.
I don't think Eric would want to leave JJP for Stern as he would be held back there with lower game budgets. Stern’s platform also seems less capable and slower compared to JJP's which would be another limitation.
Anything could happen though. Eric also seems heavily involved on the engineering side of things at JJP. I believe it was Eric who fixed the WOZ light board issue 7 - 8 years ago by coming up with the light board design that JJP still uses today.
Quoted from romulusx:Wow this sorted out the Stern fan boys!!!The game most unbiased people thought was the way rock pins should roll but they can’t say anything but call it shit because their too busy hating JJP
I've wondered for a long time why some people on here can't stand JJP and have a theory. The relentless JJP bashing by some is a way to justify their Stern purchases that often cost the same as a JJP (or close to it) but more often then not come with less in terms of overall hardware, mechs, features, animation quality, code, etc. They can't talk about those items so instead it's "All JJP's suck", "They don't make any fun games", "JJP's are just nice to look at but not play", and similar type comments.
Quoted from Tranquilize:Jesus, will you just stop? This isn't some binary universe where everyone is six years old.
I loved (past tense important) jjp until quality control and code issues were never addressed. I think both gnr the band and gnr the pin are crap. That's without the QC fiasco. There ya go.
I hated (past tense important) stern for there cost cutting cheapness and empty, recycled layouts. They still stuck in some areas, but they at least try to address complaints. My iron Maiden, while feather light and cheaper in many areas, has better code and is simply more fun to play.
Stern has earned some respect while jjp has not. GET FUCKING USED TO IT.
Cool, those are your opinions. I'm not going to sit here and say Iron Maiden the band is crap and the pinball machine is crap. Do I like the bands music? Not really, maybe 1 song. As for the pinball machine I think it's fun to play (nice artwork as well) but it's not a game I would buy for my home collection for a number of reasons (not a fan of the music overall, animations, rules, and lack of mechs). See that's providing criticism versus blanket negative statement such as "JJP sucks", and "GNR sucks" lol. My goodness.
My post was never about providing criticism, that's expected and should happen. It's the "All JJP's are terrible", "No JJP's are fun" type comments by a select few on here that are of the troll variety, and come across as a clear bias towards one company.
Quoted from pinballaddicted:Some games dimple more than others. We have a GB and it has the most dimples from any game we own. TZ on the other hand has hardly any dimples. TZ has hardly any air balls so not many dimples. GB has air balls galore so plenty of dimples. AIQ, not many air balls no dimples. It depends on the game.
Back to Steve Ritchie going to JJP to make Mortal Kombat!
Some Stern playfields have great marbling to them. To be fair I rather have some marbling then chunks of clear and artwork lifting off (looking at you JJP).
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Prime lol
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:Ridiculous, you really believe this?
For the few that act that way on here yes. Why else say such blanket negative statements as "All JJP's suck", "They don't make any fun games", and "JJP's are just nice to look at but not play"? It's not constructive criticism but rather shows a clear hate towards JJP and bias towards Stern. That's what is ridiculous.
Quoted from Frax:This is LITERALLY every JJP game I've played. Hobbit may be *the* definiton of "Multiball or bust" gameplay. Here's modes...WITH MORE BALLS......here's multiballs that stack on top of modes with more balls, and stack on other multiballs! Here's mini wizards that are multiballs that stack with multiballs and modes with multiballs!
Pirates ain't far behind with 4+ easy to get multiballs.
That's not really true about The Hobbit. The thing about JJP and multiballs is you often have a choice when to stack a multiball mode with a regular mode and in some cases can determine how many balls you want in the multiball mode. That's pretty cool in my opinion.
In the case of Hobbit you can stack the main multiball, Smaug MB, with other modes. That's pretty typical of a vast majority of newer games. The same goes for Beast Frenzy and, Feast Frenzy multiball modes. The main 30+ book modes can all be played on their own, with 1 - 3 of the main multiball modes, or on their own with your choice as single ball mode or as it's own multiball depending on how many mode locks you have. Yes, there's a lot going on there and it's awesome as its all player choice. There's a ton of stacking strategies that can help to blow up the games score.
As for the 4 wizard modes in Hobbit they are multiball modes but do not stack with any other modes. The 4 wizard modes are stand alone modes, are incredibly well layered with multiple stages, work the entire playfield in interesting ways, and have some of the best mode choropepgraghy in pinball. The same goes for the games 30+ book modes. Overall it's an epic ruleset created by two of of the best programmers in pinball, Keith Johnson and Ted Estes.
Quoted from vicjw66:Wow, hearing you describe it sounds super lame. You can “blow up” the game for what feels like half an hour only to look up in exhaustion and find your score is in the five digits. Woohoo!
You have 0 clue about the ruleset and don't know how to play it if your score only goes up 5 digits after a half hour. Also, I'm done reading your constant negative comments about JJP, it's old, have fun arguing with yourself.
Quoted from beelzeboob:JJP probably just wants to know how Steve can make such great games with such a low BOM. If he can do it for JJP, it's bound to help their bottom line. They won't lower their prices, though. That's a safe bet.
I recall reading a story on here how Steve wanted to put a magnet in front of the drop targets in Star Wars and was shut down...Still not sure if that was just a rumor or actually true. At Stern it wouldn't surprised me if something so simple was cut by Gary (who I heard has to approve every game / feature).
JJP didn't hire Steve to make empty games.
Have heard the "Less is more" argument when it comes to LZ. That game is a lot of fun to play. However, why should it cost the same as more feature packed games if there's less in it? That's the issue a lot of people have with LZ. I just paid $9500 for a GNR LE and while I enjoyed playing LZ LE it was easy to tell what game had more in it in terms of feature, rules, animations, music, etc for nearly the same price.
With Steve + JJP I can see them making a game like LZ but in the case of them the Zeppelin would have locked balls, maybe even moved, and the bottom 2/3 of the playfield would actually have something in it (shots, magnets, drops) versus being empty.
Quoted from BrianJ1337:I disagree wholeheartedly. The rule set is epic?! Playfield bare? Sure, but when you play the game with the EM spinner you see how the entire playfield and shots change.
GNR is proof you can put all the lights and cool videos you want but when the game just isn’t fun it isn’t. Loading it up with toys doesn’t change that.
Hey thats your opinion on GNR, a ton of people love the game. GNR is a blast to play with very deep code and has some of the best light shows in pinball. JJP programmers actually took the time to create light shows synced to moments in all of the songs. That may be a first for pinball, it's a shame Stern hasn't done something similar considering these crazy prices.
Quoted from Phbooms:I would not call it "very deep coded". It has alot of code but deep code is when it takes alot to get to the end wizard mode which GNR doesnt. Play 4 songs for 3 minutes to qualify the album modes and play them, get slash solo and tour going and your at the end of the game. This would be if your just trying to make it to the final wizard which is really fun and different and ignoring jackpot scores. What the game does have is lots of nicely done light shows with the song modes and 4 cool mini multiballs to go along with all the patches which give the game life but deep it is not in my opinion when it comes to actually making it to GNRs Valinor.
I guess I don't see it that way. GNR is deep in terms of the amount of things to do, it's variety. There are 20+ song modes to play, each with their own rules that change depending on how deep you want to progress through the song. Can't forget the unique light shows by song either. The player can also choose to play a song mode as a 1 ball mode or up to a 6 ball multiball mode. Just that alone is very deep and offers a lot of variety.
The album modes are mini wizard modes and there are 4 of them. The player can choose to play through a specific amount of time on an album (3 minutes I think) and then unlock one to play. Finally there's the super wizard mode.
Sure there's not the Valinor type journey in GNR but that's not the type of rulelset being offered, it's unique in its own right. Whereas LOTR has 6 main modes GNR has 20+ (the song modes) just as a comparison.
Quoted from Palmer:Each with their own rules? I mean I guess if you also consider each chapter in POTC has it's own rules. Take away the light show synced to music and song modes feel sort of samey (I do like the press your luck mechanic though).
It's not the same as the chapter modes in Pirates (had one of those). For one Pirates pretty much has zero licensed assets (only 1 set of voice callouts too) and the shots in chapter modes are the character shots on the playfield. In GNR there's unique light shows by song, and the shot requirements do change depending on the song. The press your luck mechanic results in the rules then changing for the second, third, etc stage of a song. I've seen some songs requiring ramps and orbits to be hit, other's targets, etc. The songs themselves are unique, as are the light shows which yeah you can't really take away either of those and make a fair comparison lol.
Quoted from HighVoltage:If there's no difference to you between a player doing nothing but cradling the ball and one "hitting ramps and stuff", you've got a very weird definition of synced to game play.
What JJP did with the music in GNR is choregraph light shows to moments in the songs. The Live or Let Die mode is a perfect example of this. Every other music pin before GNR had music simply play with light shows synced to gameplay events (hitting certain shots) but not choregraphed to the music. I'm not saying that's bad, just that what JJP did is rather unique and impressive.
What JJP did is likely a first for music pins (hell maybe all pinball) and I'm sure took a considerable amount of time to program (especially factoring in the number of songs), certainty far more programming then just hitting the play button on a song in past music music pins. The choreography that JJP programmers did by song includes timing / syncing the movement of the spotlight mechs, and the use of color from the RGB inserts, GI, and hot rails to moments / patterns in songs. Overall it's damn impressive. Also, there are still light shows synced to gameplay moments in GNR, hitting the spinning record during normal play is a good example of that.
Quoted from romulusx:Let’s just agree that JJP did it best!!!
Don't say that, some of the Stern fanboys will argue against it somehow.
Quoted from Palmer:You seriously think JJP invented lights syncing/flashing to a soundtrack?
Laser War did it back in 1987 and even included the lyrics on it's alphanumeric display!
Return to base! Return to base! We’re fight’n a Laser War!
I didn't know that. Also I said that may be a first for pinball, not for sure. That's cool but it's not remotely on the same level to what JJP is doing. Kinda like comparing a Model T to a 2021 Ferrari and saying they are the same because each has tires lol.
Quoted from Tranquilize:Not a fan of zep at all. It's flat, barren and not as fun as it could have been. That said, I'd take it over the world's greatest light show paired with multiball mania.
Oh no, how will Romulick® and Panzyfreak® label me as a stern fanboy when I've bashed stern and jjp at the same time????
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No labels as I'm setting you on ignore after you purposely misspelled my user name just to use a derogatory term. Goodbye, grow up, and have fun arguing with yourself.
Quoted from romulusx:Obviously I'm rooting that JJP pulls out of this tailspin their in right now.As far as Steve Ritchie coming to JJP I was surprised.I owned and loved my AC/DC Luci for a year and had a HS2 for a couple years.I hope he does well but I'm not sure he can knock it out of the park anymore.
It was definitely a move out of left field. JJP has put out 1 game a year on average so having 3 designers now is a bit strange unless JJP is planning to change that. Who knows maybe Pat is planning on retiring after his next game. Looking forward to seeing what Steve can do on a bigger game budget at JJP.
Quoted from wcbrandes:"Hand cuffs are off", hope this is true! Sounds like he was very unhappy at Stern.
That seems like a clear indication of lower forced game budgets. I couldn't imagine having to argue for a few extra drop targets, magnets, or a physical ball lock. These games are insanely priced and should come loaded, especially after all of the price hikes.
"I was just sad with the working decision over there", "I wasn't happy", "I need to be happy, I need to like what I'm doing".
Jack said "Do you want a job?" and Steve said "Yes!", "I got happy the day I came to Jersey Jack".
At what point did it hit you that needed a chance Ken asks? March 2021 Steve says, he completed two whitewoods before he left. Steve also says good things about the people he liked at Stern.
Steve "The handcuffs are off"!
Steve "Pinball people are the best people in the world", "I want to say to them I have an opportunity to make better game here and I will", "I'm happy and excited to be here".
Quoted from Darscot:Judging by the interview and trying to read between the lines, Star Trek may have been the last that he felt free to do what he wanted. He said in the interview that was the only game he got RGB LEDs and how important he thinks it is. He also talked about drop targets and how much he likes them and said his next title will have them. It was super obvious he has felt stifled for some time.
Star Trek is so good, easily the best LE Stern ever created in my opinion. There's no comparison to Star Trek LE when looking at today's Stern LE's. The external and internal cabinet lighting is awesome, there's the laser etches armor (that integrates with the cabinet lighting), LED lighting on the head, and then all of the extra stainless steel touches with the speaker panel and Starfleet emblems.
When you put Star Trek LE next to any other modern Stern LE it's clear which game had the bigger budget. What makes matters worse is all of the price hikes since Star Trek was released and Stern still hasn't made anything similar feature wise. Toss in maybe being told "No, you can't add 3 drop targets there, make them stand up targets", or maybe "No, you have to remove that magnet" and it's make the value factor in today's modern games even worse.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:[quoted image]
Stern "Take those drop targets out, replace with standups now"!
Quoted from kvan99:This is was the biggest take away from that interview....unbelievable! Price hikes every year yet they're limiting designers to save 80 bucks worth of parts
Lol yeah.
Management "Remove that magnet, it's an extra $10 cost per game and over 3,000 games that's $30,000"! Designer "but our games already cost $6k - $10k for a pinball machine of all things, don't we need to justify our prices and offer value"? Management "Uncle Gary needs a new car"!
*Rant post incoming, I apologize in advance lol.
Steve's critical comments of Stern are pretty much confirmation from one of the top designers in pinball that Stern management has been limiting game creativity due to wanting to make maximum profit regardless of the high asking prices. Modern pinball machines are insanely priced, $6k - $10k+ is a crazy amount of money for a pinball machine of all things. At those prices there's no excuse for a game not to be loaded, to have multiple 3D molds, interactive mechs, full RGB lighting etc.
The fall back stance for some is "All that stuff doesn't make a game fun". Ok, so by that analogy would you pay $50k for a base Mustang just cause it's fun to drive? Would you pay $50 for a pint of Ben and Jerry's simply because it taste good? Hell no you wouldn't lol. There lies the issue with Stern and it's not fun factor (they are a blast to play) but rather that their prices are not consistently justified by enough features, mechs, code, cabinet quality, etc. I wanted to say consistently as I don't know how Stern can price all of their games the same (the cornerstone games) while some clearly have more features, and code then others.
It's being rumored that Stern is abought to raises prices from $500 - $1k+ based on model to match JJP pricing. Stern can of course do that but they are not matching the JJP feature set (mechs, full RGB lighting, variety of 3D molds), cabinet quality, and game hardware. Going back to the Mustang analogy it would be as if Ford suddenly raised the base price of a Mustang GT from $35k to $60k just because that's what GM charges for a Corvette...then not improving the base vehicle to make it comparable.
Quoted from BrianJ1337:I don’t think they should match JJP pricing and at the same time I think JJP needs to have better quality control.
I still think it’s fair for JJP to ask for higher pricing on their machines compared to Stern as is.
The asking prices are based off inflation and due to the cost of goods going up in general I think it’s happening in most industries at the moment. Maximizing profits is the nature of the business and the consumer usually pays the price one way or another.
As someone who works in a creative field I understand what that can do to a person over time. Steve will encounter many of the same issues in his new spot (“how can we maximize profits?”), but he’ll have a much higher ceiling now to create under which is awesome and honestly I can’t wait to see what they’re going to do!
Good points! It's crazy how much all of these games cost now. I was able to buy a GNR LE at $9500 but if the price was $10,500 I would have passed. Hopefully Steve can help JJP resolve the playfield issues, even if it's something said to JJP along the lines of "Hey, I don't want to release a game with my name on it if it's going to have playfield issues".
Quoted from zombieyeti:I do have better things to do - but I can rant too
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//]]>I need to interject as I like Steve and consider him a friend - but am pretty disappointed in his choice to throw shade in this way to give fuel to any false argument… I do realize that his take is simply jjp-friendly marketing/buzz propaganda. It was a jjp podcast after all…
He has a new signature on his checks now - he has to get you excited - all part of the deal I’m sure. And that’s perfectly fine btw.
But taking this opportunity to paint an anti-stern sentiment is dishonest and intentionally misleading. (Not saying Steve’s intent was this)
First off - creative problem solving is what pinball is all about. Please just look at any Elwin game as an example. Elwin projects have had the shortest development times (7months tops) while Steve’s have had the longest (12 months minimum).
Secondly, Designers choose their licenses and lead the projects direction. Not all licenses are equal in flexibility.
Thirdly, Stern mgmt doesn’t come in and stir the pot for a few extra bones. That is a fantastic myth I see purported as fact on pinside far too often.
In fact - George is notorious for giving his designers more than what they need to see their vision come to fruition. He even jumps in to help design parts and fix problems to keep the teams rolling.
If anyone hasn’t realized that I continue to happily work with Stern because of the people and the process, make a note now
I hope Steve can make an amazing game with jjp and have no doubt he will - so unless he’s making the same or less financially now at jjp, his reason to leave was ultimately a large check with a number that he liked
Nothing wrong with that btw - but don’t use his words in a propaganda piece to talk trash about good people.
And now I’ll crawl back in my hole until the next game is done… I promise!
I never used his words to trash talk about good people at Stern, my goodness. What Steve said seemed like an indication that creativity and designs may have been held back by game budgets. I've owned multiple Stern games, including two currently that you did the artwork on, if I wasn't happy with Stern I wouldn't continue to buy their games.
I'm not sure what the trash was about good people either? On the podcast Steve only had good things to say about the people he worked with at Stern. It seemed there may have been some disappointment with upper management, not the peers he directly worked with.
On the podcast Steve also said he wasn't happy with his situation at Stern, it wasn't just a "It's time for a change" line. Seems like you are a bit bitter he left and had anything critical to say about Stern. Just because one person is happy at a company doesn't mean another is.
Quoted from paul_8788:It feels like you are contradicting yourself here. Unless you don't consider "Stern management" to be good people.
Business people are always going to want it to get done faster, and cheaper. Creative people are always going to want to have unlimited time and budget. How well you balance the two will determine if you have a successful company or a Deeproot.
I never knew criticism was propaganda and or could be labeled as trash talking good people. Criticism doesn't mean anyone is bad and I never once said that.
What zombieyeti did was imply that Steve only left Stern for the money versus the reasons Steve actually gave on the podcast.
Quoted from paul_8788:Disingenuous. You pretty much stated that Stern management is more concerned about profit than about making a good game. Not exactly a compliment. Maybe that isn't what you meant, but it is sure how it came off.
If you read my original comment I never said Stern games are not fun or that their pricing doesn't make them less fun. My criticism was around the prices Stern is charging and what customers are getting, or lack of, for that price. I stand by that.
Criticism doesn't mean a product is bad or isn't enjoyable.
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