Quoted from guitarded:

Well.
First of all, a restored Mustang should not have clearcoat on it.
Second, try a State with less enviornmental impact laws. BC would not qualify.

Quoted from Darscot:

I agree you can’t get the same paint job. You can get one that is way better. It’s laughable that you think they haven’t improved in thirty years. Sure people in the restoration business are going to complain because they have to improve along with it. You can’t just spray that old crap in the same old booth and pour it down the drain like they used too. The need to buy respirators, reclaimers, ventilation systems, it cost money to upgrade. Talk to a chemical engineer and he is going to laugh and think that 30 year old paint or clear is garbage from the dark ages.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

n the case of Hobbit you can stack the main multiball, Smaug MB, with other modes. That's pretty typical of a vast majority of newer games. The same goes for Beast Frenzy and, Feast Frenzy multiball modes. The main 30+ book modes can all be played on their own, with 1 - 3 of the main multiball modes, or on their own with your choice as single ball mode or as it's own multiball depending on how many mode locks you have. Yes, there's a lot going on there and it's awesome as its all player choice. There's a ton of stacking strategies that can help to blow up the games score.

Quoted from Guidotorpedo:

And also Jack will blame playfield issues on the customer, don’t forget that!

Quoted from vicjw66:

True. Mine was lacquered. But my point is still the same.

The clear coat on my old Tahoe did not hold up for very long. It was total crap. Flaking after about 5 years or so. Hopefully my new Tahoe will hold up better.

This was never my point of argument. Companies have had to innovate due to restrictions. There are hurdles involved. I am a strong supporter of environmental laws and restrictions. Mirco needs to innovate and overcome the restrictions. I’ve heard Germany is more strict than Mexico.

Quoted from Darscot:

Yeah when it comes to engineering and quality German is not the way to go. Mexico that is the place you want to go. You here it all the time the prestige and quality of built Mexican. Even being sarcastic it was hard to type that out LOL.

Quoted from vicjw66:

I miss that old Diamond plate. Apparently any chemical engineer today would laugh at me and tell me Diamond plate was garbage. Maybe I’m just being nostalgic.

Quoted from Darscot:

They would tell you of a modern product that is better. It might take more time and cost more. It will have exact specifications for cure time and the correct mix. If you try and rush or cheap out and use less to save money it will chip and pool. It’s not hard to look at pinball and see that there are people making playfields that are far superior to anything from thirty years ago. They are even doing it in North America with all the restrictions.

Quoted from vicjw66:

So the only hurdles are more time, increased costs, and more exacting specifications and expertise needed. Got it.

Quoted from Darscot:

I love that your being sarcastic and you actually believe low cost workers with lower specifications and no safety standards is the way to go. Thanks for the chuckle. I’ll let this thread get back to Steve.

Quoted from vicjw66:

This is patently false. I have done dimple tests as well. Although I would say that the wood used today is a big part of the problem. It is softer.

Quoted from vicjw66:

It’s that same sentiment that kept Mexican coca-cola out of the stores for so long. People just couldn’t accept that Mexico does some things better.

Quoted from vicjw66:

Yeah, because Stern has become the industry leader and very profitable because they followed your business advice. Thanks for the chuckle. Now back to Steve.

Quoted from vicjw66:

The root cause is environmental restrictions on chemicals. If you want the good clearcoat you got to go to Mexico., not Germany.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Why can Ron Kruzman fix it in Michigan, then? He says 75% of his business is fixing Mirco clear jobs.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Why can Ron Kruzman fix it in Michigan, then? He says 75% of his business is fixing Mirco clear jobs.

Quoted from Elvishasleft:

What do you their figure cost is on those if they can sell for that cheap?

Quoted from chuckwurt:

$500. That’s JJp’s cost.

Quoted from Elvishasleft:

Says who?

Quoted from vicjw66:

I miss that old Diamond plate. Apparently any chemical engineer today would laugh at me and tell me Diamond plate was garbage. Maybe I’m just being nostalgic.

Quoted from Elvishasleft:

It costs money?
JJP is selling playfields for under $500 right?
What do you their figure cost is on those if they can sell for that cheap?
People are expecting high quality out of parts that are being sourced on the cheap. Not normally a winning combo.

Quoted from bobukcat:

The buthumberg guys in Germany and Bader don't seem to have the issues either.

Quoted from PinMonk:

JJP has a bad history with Bader because of the first run WoZ playfields having the art come off in huge chunks in the pop bumpers and by the drop target. Apparently JJP did not exit that agreement gracefully, and gave them a LOT less slack than they've given Mirco. Bader has figured it out since, but I'm not sure that's an open door to re-initiate with Bader, or if Bader even has the space available to do JJP stuff if they wanted to. They're doing a LOT more machines than Spooky.
What at the guys in Germany doing?

Quoted from Elvishasleft:

It costs money?

Quoted from Elvishasleft:

Says who?
Just making the point that someone was comparing a Kruzman playfield (which are CQ and usually well over a grand) to something that is half if that.
The issue here is buyers expect that collector level of quality out of a company that is sourcing parts as cheap as possible.

Quoted from 27dnast:

The statement is that they have "no intention" of fixing the issue. That means absoulute zero intention. You actually believe that JJP has zero intention of fixing the problem?

They've obviously had some struggles in fixing the problem, but I highly doubt that it's 1000% off their radar.

Quoted from Frax:

There is not a SINGLE Stern game where I spend as much time in multiball (of any form) as Hobbit. Not even REMOTELY close. You can toss around words all day long and it's not going to change the simple facts.
If you're playing book modes on their own, you're doing it for one reason...to see the callouts and animations. Which is fine. They put a lot of work into that. But it's a stupid, STUPID choice if you're going for score. There is absolutely no reason NOT to stack in Hobbit other than that, and if you choose to handicap your progress or score.....I'm not about to stop you, and I'll gladly take that W. I don't think you need to preach to me about Hobbit rules in that regard. I had -triple- the score of my nearest competitor at a league night this last tuesday, and in fact, I did have +2 mode balls because I intentionally delayed the MB start to start the book mode with the +2 balls BEFORE starting the multiball. I had Into the Fire on ball 1 without even intentionally going for it. The game IS entirely about multiball, whether you're using it to give yourself more chances to make shots in a mode, or playing the "main" multiballs. Period. Hobbit without that would be a complete piece of trash. I understand thematically why they made that choice, and I *really* wish that it wouldn't be used as a competitive game, EVER, because of it. It plays way the hell too long for that crap, specifically because getting into multiball in any form is a complete and total joke, and you're just as likely to start Beast Frenzy on accident as you are intentionally. I've had 3 ball games of Hobbit where I am not even remotely kidding where I've had SIX+ Beast Frenzy MBs. It's ridiculous. It should not take an hour and a half for a 4 player league game, or 45+ minutes for even Colin MacAlpine, his kid, me, and my kid, to play a 3 ball parent child finals where it was 1 ball parents, 1 ball kids (Mine was like NINE at the time, mind you), 1 ball split flipper....and yet it did.
I actually enjoy a well playing Hobbit.....alone. But with other people? Hell no. Hard pass if I have a choice.
I'm sure all that is adjustable in the settings, but I have no control over that in 99.99% of situations.
Believe it or not, if they would just remove Jack from the company entirely, fix their QC issues, and get their pricing under control or at LEAST stop changing the prices mid-run and announcing 20 different versions of the same game just to milk more money out of people.....I'd probably be a JJP evangelist. But they seem determined to KEEP doing stupid things that have been bringing them down since WOZ. I was defending WOZ when it was not popular to do so. Dialed In has interesting things to it that I like, and Hobbit....as long as I'm in the mood to play a half hour or more of multiballs.....is to me the best example of how to do a video screen interface that's informative and visually appealing. That's one area where JJP leads the industry currently. None of Stern's LCD animations even remotely come close to the integration of video assets and interface design that Hobbit has.
Stern's screens are like .MOV files in the era of 4k YouTube. Functional.....but not good to look at.

Quoted from PinMonk:

What are the guys in Germany doing?

Quoted from Deaconblooze:

I see this as good news for everyone.
If Steve moves to JJP, he gets a chance to put out a flow monster with a higher BOM and some different code philosophies.
Stern can give an opportunity to some fresh blood, maybe offering the community something new and unique at a reasonable price point.

Quoted from Only_Pinball:

Playfields for Pinball Brothers

Quoted from PinMonk:

So Alien v1.1? Are there enough of them out there yet to tell if the PFs are holding up?

Quoted from chuckwurt:

They have done multiple repro playfields too. Never heard of any issues with them.

Quoted from Zitt:

None. Zero. Ziltch.
They "want" to fix it... but lack the skills. Pinball is hard apparently. :rolleyes:
I know your on the correct side here and were supporting my position - feels dirty to be quoting you...
That said, JJP has demonstrated thru action they don't give a rats arse about the product they ship once it ships. Have a defective clear coat; tough shit... not their problem. Bad LED board; again - you pay them to get a fixed part... maybe; if they feel like shipping it to you.
Anyone staying in the GnR pipeline... are... well; insane.
Anyone thinking of the next game... are even more so.
Think people.

Quoted from Beechwood:

I only upvote this because of the effort you had to put into this enormous response. Kudos!

Quoted from BrianJ1337:

His last game (LZ) flows like a Mf but because it doesn’t have a bunch of toys people aren’t fans apparently. Easily one of his best games he’s ever designed IMO.

Quoted from beelzeboob:

JJP probably just wants to know how Steve can make such great games with such a low BOM. If he can do it for JJP, it's bound to help their bottom line. They won't lower their prices, though. That's a safe bet.

Quoted from Chuckwebster:

I agree LZ is an awesome game. It didn't get the love it deserves because it doesn't have all the eye candy that GNR has. It's definitely more of a game for the hardcore players. Sometimes less is more when it comes to designing games that are fun to play and hold up over time. I hope SR can bring some of this design philosophy to JJP in his next game.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Have heard the "Less is more" argument when it comes to LZ. That game is a lot of fun to play. However, why should it cost the same as more feature packed games if there's less in it? That's the issue a lot of people have with LZ. I just paid $9500 for a GNR LE and while I enjoyed playing LZ LE it was easy to tell what game had more in it in terms of feature, rules, animations, music, etc for nearly the same price.
With Steve + JJP I can see them making a game like LZ but in the case of them the Zeppelin would have locked balls, maybe even moved, and the bottom 2/3 of the playfield would actually have something in it (shots, magnets, drops) versus being empty.

Quoted from BrianJ1337:

His last game (LZ) flows like a Mf but because it doesn’t have a bunch of toys people aren’t fans apparently. Easily one of his best games he’s ever designed IMO.

Quoted from Av8:LZ is widely seen as bad game. Bad callouts and poor rules. The PF is just ok. Doesnt feel like SR. I love the band but the game falls short on so many levels. Its a 5 out of 10 at best. ACDC pro and le completely blow it away.
SR should connect with JJP and take his designs to the next dimension, imo.

Quoted from Frax:

There is not a SINGLE Stern game where I spend as much time in multiball (of any form) as Hobbit. Not even REMOTELY close. You can toss around words all day long and it's not going to change the simple facts.
If you're playing book modes on their own, you're doing it for one reason...to see the callouts and animations. Which is fine. They put a lot of work into that. But it's a stupid, STUPID choice if you're going for score. There is absolutely no reason NOT to stack in Hobbit other than that, and if you choose to handicap your progress or score.....I'm not about to stop you, and I'll gladly take that W. I don't think you need to preach to me about Hobbit rules in that regard. I had -triple- the score of my nearest competitor at a league night this last tuesday, and in fact, I did have +2 mode balls because I intentionally delayed the MB start to start the book mode with the +2 balls BEFORE starting the multiball. I had Into the Fire on ball 1 without even intentionally going for it. The game IS entirely about multiball, whether you're using it to give yourself more chances to make shots in a mode, or playing the "main" multiballs. Period. Hobbit without that would be a complete piece of trash. I understand thematically why they made that choice, and I *really* wish that it wouldn't be used as a competitive game, EVER, because of it. It plays way the hell too long for that crap, specifically because getting into multiball in any form is a complete and total joke, and you're just as likely to start Beast Frenzy on accident as you are intentionally. I've had 3 ball games of Hobbit where I am not even remotely kidding where I've had SIX+ Beast Frenzy MBs. It's ridiculous. It should not take an hour and a half for a 4 player league game, or 45+ minutes for even Colin MacAlpine, his kid, me, and my kid, to play a 3 ball parent child finals where it was 1 ball parents, 1 ball kids (Mine was like NINE at the time, mind you), 1 ball split flipper....and yet it did.
I actually enjoy a well playing Hobbit.....alone. But with other people? Hell no. Hard pass if I have a choice.
I'm sure all that is adjustable in the settings, but I have no control over that in 99.99% of situations.
Believe it or not, if they would just remove Jack from the company entirely, fix their QC issues, and get their pricing under control or at LEAST stop changing the prices mid-run and announcing 20 different versions of the same game just to milk more money out of people.....I'd probably be a JJP evangelist. But they seem determined to KEEP doing stupid things that have been bringing them down since WOZ. I was defending WOZ when it was not popular to do so. Dialed In has interesting things to it that I like, and Hobbit....as long as I'm in the mood to play a half hour or more of multiballs.....is to me the best example of how to do a video screen interface that's informative and visually appealing. That's one area where JJP leads the industry currently. None of Stern's LCD animations even remotely come close to the integration of video assets and interface design that Hobbit has.
Stern's screens are like .MOV files in the era of 4k YouTube. Functional.....but not good to look at.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Led Zeppelin is the first example of a Lead Balloon in pinball.

Quoted from Av8:

LZ is widely seen as bad game. Bad callouts and poor rules. The PF is just ok. Doesnt feel like SR. I love the band but the game falls short on so many levels. Its a 5 out of 10 at best. ACDC pro and le completely blow it away.
SR should connect with JJP and take his designs to the next dimension, imo.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I recall reading a story on here how Steve wanted to put a magnet in front of the drop targets in Star Wars and was shut down...Still not sure if that was just a rumor or actually true. At Stern it wouldn't surprised me if something so simple was cut by Gary (who I heard has to approve every game / feature).
JJP didn't hire Steve to make empty games.