Sana'a
Quoted from iceman44:The fact is that EMs didn’t have ramps
That might be an **alternative fact** .....
(Topic ID: 214129)
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider vid1900.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Maple is not an old growth wood, lol.
Maple trees don't live to be 3000 years old.
It comes from syrup farms. When the trees are too old (100-125 years), they are cleared and a new crop grown. It's been that way since the 1700s.
That's why Maple plywood does not come from Europe. They don't have the correct climate to mass produce maple syrup.
Maple for guitar necks, bowling ally, and pinball machines comes from Canada and the NE USA.
Quoted from Frippertron:I don't have a problem with what Mr. Ritchie said but how he said it. Is it really necessary to be so condescending? Believe me I get it, I owned a retail establishment for years and am used to stupid questions. Treating your customers like idiots is rarely a good idea.
Steve is nearing the end of his days.
He is tired of newbies wasting his remaining time at shows with the "How come old playfields never dimpled...???".
Quoted from indypinhead:Yeah, I've always wondered what's up w/ people that wear sunglasses indoors.
That's what you have to do for a while after getting your cataracts done.
Some people have photophobia for a month, some almost a year.
That is why they do one eye at a time a few months apart.
Quoted from Crile1:Holy smokes, the balls on newer Sterns go everywhere compared to older games and even JJP.
That's why I always hated Williams games, the balls even flew into the outlanes:
Quoted from hocuslocus:Take a look at JJP's playfields. look at how many layers are used on their playfields compare that to pretty much any other manufacture (more layers increases the playfields resistance to warping),
The only JJP playfields with all the layers are the mirco made ones, and they are made from softer Birch plywood.
The other JJP playfields are made with the standard 5 ply Maple.
Same with Stern, the German made playfields have the 13 birch plys:
Quoted from PinMonk:JJP also uses better/harder/drier wood so they have less dimpling.
Actually, the JJP that are made of birch are softer wood, than the ones made from Maple.
But it does not matter which wood they are made from.
You buy it like this on day 1:
And it looks like this a few months later:
9db28b1d1ec45acd35c703bbb7a9202d15631f0e73 (resized).jpg
Why? Because neither wood is harder than a steel ball.
Some of you guys are kinda missing the point.
How can the Stern playfields made by Mirco, be any softer than the JJP playfields made by Mirco?
Same manufacturer, same Birch plywood, same clearcoat.
Factual answers only please; I'll take my answer off the air.....
Quoted from PinMonk:Mirco has levels of service. He'll do ceramic finishes if you want to pay for it. I'm sure no manufacturer does. His process has changed, too. His earlier PFs were better than his newer stuff. No idea if he offers grades of wood to manufacturers to cut costs.
Thus there are too many variables to make a thin air comparison.
-
Like I always say:
Bring your **no dimple** playfield to Expo.
I'll bring a Jenka testing rig (the only professional way wood hardness is tested), and we'll test it.
Show me a Birch playfield that is harder than a Maple playfield.
Show me a Maple playfield that is harder than another Maple playfield.
THEN we can talk meaningfully.
Quoted from iceman44:Woz is the worst PF I’ve ever owned and yet it doesn’t matter
Get em Vid!
Now we are going to argue about the diameter of the dimples. I love it!
It's only science if we can control the variables.
WOZ came in both a Birch and a Maple playfield - which one was tested?
MET came in both a Birch and a Maple playfield - again, which one was tested?
Old games could have been made from Churchill, Lec-Smith, Sun Process, TAG, EAC, the more popular the title, the more likely you can find multiple playfield manufacturers of the same game- which one was tested?
Wood from the same tree will have different hardness. Are we testing directly on a ring (the dark part) or the light part next to it?
Are we doing multiple tests, 4" apart on each sample to get the average?
Are we testing under the apron where no compression has already taken place?
Maple has to be at 9% moisture to glue it into plywood, but are we measuring the CURRENT moisture at the time of testing? Has the plywood become less moist over the years?
Do we have enough samples of each title in each wood species? A trend can't be discovered with a single sample.
Quoted from cottonm4:I keep trying to get some feelers for Richlite. It is compressed paper. Don't laugh. Paper used to be wood. It works like wood. It is super hard. It does not warp.
I worked with it when I was making aircraft form dies. I don't know what it costs. I don't know if the pinball industry knows about it and has rejected it. I don't know if the pinball industry even knows about it; I'm guessing pinball design engineers would know about it but maybe they don't.
http://www.richlite.com/applications/commercial-countertops/
That stuff looks cool.
Bally tried to make some man made playfields and even some with acrylic top layers in the early 80s.
Quoted from Brian541:the previous poster mentioning carbon fiber or something like it could be a possible bulletproof alternative.
3/4" thick CF is $621 a square foot (that's if you order 10,000 feet), so a playfield size piece would cost $4,661
Then add the fact of how fast it chews up the CNC router bits.
Then add that it conducts electricity
Then add that a playfield size sheet would weigh 50lbs
By the time an actual playfield was produced, it might be cheaper to buy a 2nd game.
Quoted from DaveH:I could probably compile a list of games where Stern used softer wood
There is no softer Hard Maple that you can buy, anywhere.
The plywood used for pinball machines is called "lumber core". That means that all 5 layers are made of hardwood Maple (not like the junk at Lowes where there is a paper thin veneer of Maple, with Spruce/pine/fir layers beneath).
Maple is graded by appearance. The absence of knots, or mineral staining makes it higher grade.
Hard Maple only comes in one hardness (Hard Maple is the same wood as Sugar Maple or Rock Maple)
There are other species of Maple (Black Maple or Red Maple) but those cost more money.
Homework:
Show me anywhere on earth that you can buy Hard Maple lumber core plywood with softer hardness gradings at cheaper prices.
Quoted from jwilson:Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
That would be a goldmine if known!
Too bad the toxicity of Pinside has chased away the two who might share that info.
You can make fun of someone because they got a bad tattoo, or married the same woman twice; but it's never cool to mock someone because of a handicap or medical condition.
Robin, do you wonder why most pinball companies have abandoned posting on Pinside???
You can't really measure wood hardness without eliminating the moisture variable.
Sure it was 9% moisture when the plywood was made, but how much moisture has the wood lost or gained from the environment?
Guitar builders (Luithers), cabinet makers and hardwood floor installers use an inexpensive moisture meter to read the % of absorbed moisture.
This one is $4 after code = W38WGNMD
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073PXC64X/ref=s9_acsd_simh_hd_bw_b2Jvi_c_x_1_w
61LCQWHvv0L._SL1500_ (resized).jpg
Depending on the species of wood, a -12% difference in moisture can give a 50% boost in strength.
Quoted from PinMonk:The test with the $10k machine the guy did on a bunch of old and new playfields show *relative* hardness to each other right now, in the same environment (so shared humidity, etc).
It can take months/years for the humidity to change under a clear coat on a .6" thick painted back playfield .
I just measured a Bally Mariner and it was @ 5.2% (almost as low as the meter would display), and a month old MMR was 8.4%.
The inside of the MMR plywood cab read 9.2% , Yes, I remembered to change the meter's setting from Maple to Pine (I forgot to go back and read the Mariner's cab)
These were in a building that had a relative humidity that read 33%
How long would a game stored in a humid place like Miami take to gain moisture?
How long would a game stored in an arid climate take to lose moisture?
-
Question for further study:
What if a game was restored with a water based clearcoat?
Quoted from PinMonk:Not opening the restoration PFs can of worms because that's all a distraction from Stern cheaping out on PF wood and being caught with verifiable tests.
Where is there any "cheaper Maple" that is softer to cheap out on?
I mean, show me any place on earth that sells a softer grade of Lumber Core Maple plywood for a lesser price.
Honestly, Hard Maple comes in many appearance grades, but it only comes in a single hardness.
-
I'm on your side, I'd like to see a dozen pins of each title to test for hardness and moisture.
But I'm not seeing the "soft wood" angle, because nobody grows any Hard Maple in a cheaper, softer grade.
Quoted from PinMonk:It's not SOLID maple, right? The difference is likely some combination of veneers and cores that are different somehow. There is CLEARLY a difference, though.
But what is the difference?
We can't just say "softer Hard Maple" if nothing like that exists on earth.
If the core was another wood, we would see that in the shooter lane.
If people are going to take us seriously, we have to know what we are talking about.
For instance, if a batch of more expensive Red Maple was mistakenly made into 25 playfields, we would be able to say "See? This is made of Red Maple, and thus it's softer than Hard Maple"
We would have something factual to show Stern.
Quoted from Procrastinator:A dozen playfields is more than enough to see there’s a difference.
C'mon, did they teach the Scientific Method in your school?
You need dozens of EACH title, chosen at random.
Quoted from StylesBitchly:Vid, a great deal or the USA believes in Creationism. Most people I know have no idea what the scientific method is.
That is unfortunate.
Back in 1015, Ibn Al Haytham strongly believed in Allah, but he still knew the importance of science when he invented the Scientific Method.
Quoted from Darscot:All you need is one sample to prove variation exists.
There is your problem, right there.
If you say Stern "cheap-ed out" and used soft Hard Maple, that implies that Stern did this to save money.
Now, if you only have "one sample", are you implying that Stern "cheap-ed out" to save money on a single game?
Do you hear how crazy that sounds to everyone else?
Quoted from Darscot:My opinion is that Stern has done a poor job maintaining quality and testing.
Excellent! This makes sense.
**In your opinion** is the operative phrase.
Now if you want everyone to share your opinion, you need to use the Scientific Method.
Otherwise
Your honor,
Quoted from Darscot:I'm not concerned with what made up percentage are capable of understanding what I am trying to say. I'm confident with my logic and science and open to any discussion on the subject. I do not believe I am 100% right, its just a discussion. If you are correct and 99% of the people on pinside are not capable of this level of discussion I guess this is a waste of time. I myself give them much more credit.
You are getting more defensive, even though we are trying to help you.
We are trying to show you what you need to do to make your "logic and science" become real to everyone else.
Attorney: Your honor, we have come here to prove that Vaccines cause Autism!
Judge: Wow, that is a serious charge.
Attorney: Indeed, but we have proof. Proof that any thinking man can see.
Judge: Please, show me this proof, as I am a thinking man.
Attorney: Before you stand 3 children with Autism. All three of them were vaccinated!!!!
Quoted from Fytr:This raises the question though, if a playfield will eventually evenly compress due to ball hits so the dimpling is not noticeable, why can't the PF manufacturer "pre-compress" the top layer of the PF wood before it is painted and cleared so it would be less susceptible to dimpling? Hammer it with a million ball hits or a giant press or something?
Because they don't have to.
Playfields have been made in the same way for 80 years - Rout some Hard Maple plywood, seal it, silkscreen it, topcoat it.
Bally experimented with un-dent-able Bakelite and even a plexi overlay back in the 80s. Nobody cared. They went out of business.
MarsaPlay in 2010 made their playfields with a thick Plexi top, and magnetic sensors for switches that would never wear out. Nobody cared. They went out of business.
You can buy an overlay for any new game for ~$100. Are you going to buy it?
Probably not, because you like the **feel** of the lumpy Maple ply.
Remember, everyone is trying to help.
In science, you publish your findings.
Then people in your field, review, revise, poke holes, extrapolate, and suggest ways to better prove the hypothesis. (we call that Peer Review).
Then you, or your peers go back and test further with the new insight.
It's just the way it is.
Quoted from Bumper:My Doctor Who is just perfect, why don't they make diamond plate playfields anymore?
WMS owns the trademark on the word "Diamondplate" in reference to pinball.
I still have almost 5 gallons of the stuff. It's cloudy and brittle compared to today's more durable clears, but great for touchups when you need it to be authentic.
Quoted from Bumper:??? I thought it was not a coating but some kind of Mylar completely covering the playfield.
Nope, it was just Dupont Imron clear that was used to paint trucks.
TR_Can_Imron_8840S_gal_210x300.png;jsessionid=CD8190D5068678E2A333CFEFB0610C87.tomcat2 (resized).png
Your entire post reads as pure nubie or pure bullshlt
Quoted from pinballwil:I noticed to, brand new Starwars on the dpo expo 2017 after 2 days of play it looks like a moon landscape.
Of course it did.
That's exactly how a brand new playfield looks after being deployed.
This is 2018 baby, playfields are fully lit (it only took them 60 years, lol) and buffed to a gloss finish straight from the factory. Put a slab of invisiglass over it, and you will have a moonscape under glass for the first million balls.
Quoted from pinballwil:The wood for the playfield isnt made for 15 years.
This is pure bullshlt.
Hard Maple is one of the cheapest and most abundant hardwoods in North America.
Maple syrup production was up in 2017 - it would be hard to make syrup without Hard Maple....
Quoted from pinballwil:Second, water based clear is used.
Wait, stop the presses! This is big news!
Which of the 5 current playfield manufacturers are using Water Based Clear now ?????
Quoted from pinballwil:water based clear is used. it won't hold on inserts.
Water Based Clear does stick to inserts.
What brands have you tried that don't adhere to inserts?
Hell, the auto companies use water based clears on plastic car bumpers, and those are subjected to much worse environmental conditions than pinball.
Quoted from pinballwil:All modern pinballmachines from Stern, JJP, Highway chips/ghost the playfield.
You should have been around when we had Williams and Bally making games; millions of ghosted inserts and chipped playfields.
But like they taught us at the Bally school, "We only build them to last 3 years...."
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Here's some playfield pics of on location games at Marvins in Michigan.
Excellent work!
Your pictures are marvelous.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Based on the pics WOZ appears to have the least amount of dimpling
And that makes total sense.
WOZ was probably the last dimly lit pinball machine made, and it was the oldest/most played in the group.
The more plays, the flatter the playfield appears.
The dimmer the GI, the less obvious the surface texture.
(For an extra data point for us, did you happen to get a pic of the WOZ shooterlane? Then we could see if it was a Maple or Birch playfield.)
Quoted from metallik:Is it really that hard to envision that some playfields were simply made with substandard plywood? Young trees, diseased trees, wrong trees, whatever.. my eyes don't lie.
Where would you buy this "substandard plywood"? Show me any place on the entire earth that sells Lumber Core Hard Maple plywood in some lower grade.
All Hard Maple trees are young, they simply don't live long.
Wrong tree I guess is a possibility, but again Hard Maple is the cheapest of the North American Hardwoods. It's not like CanAm is saving any money in a mistake like that. Just look under the apron and you can tell if it's Maple a mile away.
Diseased or stressed Maple wood sells at a premium to woodworkers - it's not going to end up on cheap plywood.
You pay a premium for Maple like this:
Quoted from metallik:You don't. You buy "Lumber Core Hard Maple plywood" like usual and you just happen to get a batch that isn't as hard as prior batches. Trees of the same species can grow differently and have slightly different wood densities. I'm not saying Stern did this on purpose, I'm saying sh*t happens.
The only way to know is to test the moisture, and do a Janka hardness test under the apron.
Anything else is just grasping.
Maybe they mixed up the wood species, maybe there is a void in the plys, maybe they used water based clear, maybe the ink had less solids, maybe Stern found soft hard maple growing in a toxic dump, maybe the sealer coat was forgotten, maybe they did not add enough catalyst to the clear to harden it, maybe they polished it so much the clear is too thin, maybe it's too humid in GA, maybe the trees were diseased, maybe it froze during shipping......
WAY to many maybes for the scientific mind.
Test it scientifically, or just wait 20 years until it flattens out completely.
Quoted from Darscot:Oh I say Stern could test and its preposterous to 99% of the people here and it's Monty Python as far as science. Now it's the only way to be sure, interesting how it's magically becomes science when you want to use it as an argument.
You are starting to sound crazy again.
Stern's not going to test, because they don't have to.
You guys will keep buying machines, they will keep dimpling (unless you buy those plastic balls), and the world will keep turning.
I said WE (the collective we, lol) could test a playfield if you wanted to see if the wrong species of wood got accidentally made into a playfield.
Quoted from swinks:in addition it would be interesting to machine just the clear off a small patch (1 x 1inch) under the apron to do a second janka test to determine a figure forjust the wood versus wood and clear janka test
I bet CCC would give me a damaged, unscreened Maple playfield.
That way we could test without the sealer having soaked into the wood.
I already have some virgin Baltic Birch plywood in house.
Quoted from Fytr:The weird part is how deep and steep some of the dimples appear to be. if you look at that Houdini, they don't even follow the shape/curvature of the ball. it's like someone put small pebbles on the playfield and pounded them in. I guess I don't understand how these are being created.
They stack together.
Like on Shadow, the dimples in front of the standup targets are more slight than the monsters that drop from the mini-playfield. You sometimes get a perfect, mini-snowman.
After a million plays they are all homologous, just in time for the ball to break another plastic or two as they fly off the mini.
Quoted from Darscot:Here we go with just trying to say things that are completely unrelated. No one said anything about species of wood, no one is suggesting they shipped balsa wood playfields. Your attempts at misdirection are incredible weak and you continue to push this falsehood that every piece of whatever ply they use is identical. Stern response has been very poor, any company could easily and cheaply implement a test to make sure every piece of plywood was an acceptable standard as far as moisture and hardness. This is a perfect example of them just not making the effort to control their quality, standards and customer confidence. It appears there are plenty of people that will buy no matter what but it's no way to expand your market or sustain it.
Again, I'm on your side.
I'm just telling you that I've talked to Gary and he's not going to change what he has been doing for 41 years.
Maybe some other company will start selling games with Bakelite playfields.
Maybe some other company will start selling games with a Certificate Of Janka (like when you buy a Rockford-Fosgate amp and it comes with Certificate Of Power).
Maybe some other company will start selling games with Dovetail joinery in the cab so you can't split the corners.
Garry's only going to do what he has been doing.
He writes the same old song, with a few new lines, and everybody wants to hear it.
Quoted from o-din:If somebody else isn't, they have to live with it, or get rid of it. There is always an easy solution.
Just get rid of it.
I had a BMW M5 that was in the shop more than it ever was on the road.
No matter how much I paid for it, if it does not make me happy, I'm chucking it.
Quoted from Darscot:Never in my life have I ever heard someone say your starting to sound like a crazy person, I'm on your side. LOL
You have a very funny way of saying I agree with you.
We can certainly both have the same goals, even if we have different ideas of how to get to them.
If I start talking like a madman, I hope one of my friends would pull me aside and say "Do you hear yourself right now?"
-
She's one day old and has no ramps to drop off of, and no line of fire standups.
Oh Bally, even your 35 year old playfields are soft and diseased. No wonder you went of of business.
Quoted from Swainer80:All of my games show dimpling (easy to see on TZ and strangely enough behind the inlanes, how did that happen)
All OLD games show way more dimpling behind the inlanes because the center field has so many dimples, it's beaten flat.
Behind the inlanes gets way less dimples, so each one stands out (like a new playfield).
The game below has been in 16 hour a day use for 23 years. (click the image, and take it all in)
The center of the playfield appears smooth with no dimples.
The outlanes look like the moon surface.
All it takes is 1,000,000+ plays to get that kind of playfield.
This is what Steve is talking about.
"Quit bitching and start playing, you lousy nubies!"
66d1bbb6eb3b393e77c9538b0152c6f281c8e187 (resized).jpg
-
-
-
-
Same thing here, after 24 years of play, the center is flawless, and the outlanes need A LOT more pounding before they'll look smooth:
6f0b7c8927455660016fd678914293ec7a12798c (resized).jpg
The ultimate fun would be to take a brand new BM66 with it's super shiny playfield and bright GI lighting.
Put it in a location that will get 100s of plays every day (like maybe, you know, an arcade).
Then install a little cube GoPro and do a time lapse video.
Pick an angle that will get plenty of ball drops.
People could watch a live stream, or pick a speed and watch time lapse playback.
You could watch the playfield go from a polished pristine glass-like surface, to the first day dimples, to dimples on top of dimples, to moonscape, to flatter moonscape, to ripple, to level, to "there is not a dimple on it".
-
Once Stern starts putting the full manuals in the game ROMs, a time lapse video could be included that would display on the LCD:
New to NIB pinball? Watch this first.
Quoted from spazzman90:Steve is an employee of a decent sized company. What he is known for is game design, but of course he makes appearances and statements. Sometimes they are geared as damage control.
Since the 1970s, Steve has seen every brand new playfield at Atari, Williams, and Stern.
And he has seen them in well lit rooms, with the glass off.
So he knows what brand new playfields look like once a steel ball with a Rockwell Hardness of C60 starts slamming into the softer wood.
NOBODY on Pinside has seen more brand new playfields than Ritchie.
But no matter how much experience he has, there is always somebody on Pinside who knows better.
Ritchie: Always protect your playfield with a coat of wax.
Pinside: Never wax your games, it makes them too fast.
Ritchie: Every playfield gets tons of dimples.
Pinside: It's diseased wood. Stern cheaped out.
Ritchie: That shot is made with a rolling backflip.
Pinside: You can't make that shot. You just have to hope you get it at random.
Ritchie: As a designer, I choose the rubber that gives the play I want.
Pinside: Too bad Stern is too cheap to let Ritchie use white rubber.
Pinside knows best.....
Quoted from chubtoad13:Since dimpling is inevitable, does it matter how long you wait after a playfield is coearcoated before you play it? Would especially love to hear vid1900 thoughts
Too many different formulations to give a blanket answer.
The UV cure stuff is as hard as it's going to get in literally 15 seconds.
The Catylist stuff could take 1 to 6 months (depending on formula) to max hardness.
The Evaoporative stuff might increase in hardness for years.
The inserts do not dimple.
They can sometimes crack.
Wood dimples because the ball crushes the hollow wood fibers.
The clearcoat on the surface of the wood does not fill any of the hollow cells below the first few layers. So although the clear does a great job protecting from abrasion, it does little to prevent dimpling.
Quoted from mcluvin:We just need another ice age to get some denser wood.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3660456/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/does-climate-explain-prized-violins-tone/#.WtfhOYjwYuU
Should not be too hard to reverse the global warming:
STOP POLLUTION NOW!!!
SAVE PINBALL FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS.
Quoted from PinMonk:Maybe he's trying to say the composite playfield wood was harder due to the way the layers were composed. Playfields are not solid hard maple - the maple is a layer.
Each layer is the same thickness and the same Hard Maple as they have been for 60 years.
The only playfields that are different are the German ones, and those are made of thinner layers of Birch.
Quoted from j_m_:I can't believe that a hardwood tree's wood doesn't become harder over time as the tree has time to mature. by harvesting the product earlier, the resulting lumber and veneer is ultimately going to be softer and more susceptible to denting/dimpling/gouging and what have you simply due to this fact
You are thinking of Old Growth wood that's thousands of years old.
Hard Maple is a crop.
It's grown, tapped for sap, and when it gets to be 100-125 years old and it's sap quality decreases, they cut it down and plant new trees.
If you go to a syrup farm, the will have a few big maples around the barn with rusty metal buckets hanging from them - a great, rustic show for the tourists.
But if you sneak out on the farm itself, you see hundreds of acres of younger trees with rubber tubing draining the sap.
No romantic horse drawn wagons emptying buckets of syrup, lol
Quoted from kvan99:If they moved a power switch to save a couple of bucks what makes you think sourcing a cheaper grade wood is a bridge too far?
They moved the power switch to conform to the new UL regulations.
All high voltages are now confined only to the backbox, making testing and UL certification much safer/faster.
Quoted from kvan99:Wherever plywood is made, the trees used for core material are fast-growing and have little or no value as solid wood or as face veneer.
That quote is for Veneer Plywood, a VERY different product.
-
Pinball playfields are made of a ply called Lumber Core.
The internal layers are made of the same species of wood as the face.
The face layers are THICK allowing sanding to level the inserts with the face.
Quoted from kvan99:I know the reason but you left out the part where it saves them money to approve only the backbox vs both the cabinet and backbox.
If you've ever had something UL approved, you know that UL needs a few samples and totally destroys them.
They even drop the product upside down to see if that occurrence causes high voltage leakage.
Sending a few backboxes for certification makes A LOT more sense, than sending complete games - and the process goes much quicker.
Quoted from kvan99:Also, the quote doesn't change the fact cheap foreign plywood have proliferated the market, some of which don't even have a grade stamp on them. They have undercut American and Canadian plywood prices by 50%.
There is NO foreign made Hard Maple lumber core plywood. None.
Hard Maple is only grown commercially in North America.
Europe and Asia do not have the proper climate for large scale syrup production.
Quoted from fishbone:Thank you. This proves that not all playfields are created the same and some are more prone to dimpling than others.
If it **proves** anything, it's that CPR has used a core wood, namely Ash, that is SOFTER than Hard Maple.
Hard Maple = 1400
Ash = 1290
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:Why use wood at all, given all the variables? I know it's been discussed, but a synthetic material similar to wood seems like it could solve the issue.
Because Stern, JJP, & Spooky don't think that dimpling is an issue.
Anyone that does think it's an issue always just buys a playfield protector and never thinks about it again.
>>>> MAPLE IS NOT AN OLD GROWTH WOOD <<<<<
Hard Maple trees are harvested when they are 100-125 years old
As soon as they are no good for syrup production, they are cut down and a new crop planted.
>>>> MAPLE IS NOT AN OLD GROWTH WOOD <<<<<
Here is a treat for the nubies.
How about a 35 year old Comet, sealed under factory Mylar for it's entire life, until just 30 minutes ago?
It's been broken since 1989 (based on the oldest coin in the cashbox), burred under 20 boxes of old clothes, no keys to the locks.
Will it have dimples? Or was Maple growing to thousands of years old back then, harder than steel?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
22IMG_4606 (resized).jpg
It's sad that a game that only got 5 years of play, and was protected by some of the thickest Mylar I've ever pulled, and was made from "old growth" 1985 Maple, still had dimples.
Could it be that a steel ball is still harder than "old growth" Maple + Mylar????
Quoted from kvan99:Now look at this BM66
Now look at that magnet core.
If that chunk of steel is dimpling, what chance does a piece of wood have??
I've been working on an equation that explains the physics behind the witnessed phenomena:
Hardened Ball Bearing > Steel Magnet Core > Wood
Quoted from TheLaw:Man Pinside does...fill in whatever wacky shit you can come up with and it will come true.
The most amazing thing has to be the flat-earthers who point to a picture of a 1/2" thick solid steel magnet core, covered in dimples, and say "Don't you see how dimpled the wood is???? Stern is using soft wood!!!!! "
It's absolutely unsane.
Quoted from kvan99:Haha, I posted a quote from CPR that pretty much gave us proof that you're wrong. You had said all pinball pfs were made from hard maple all the way through,
Ummm, you know that CPR is an aftermarket producer and NOT affiliated with Stern, right?
You know that I showed pictures of Mirco playfields made of Birch, right?
Quoted from kvan99:you said no foregin plywood is made from maple, I posted ads from China with Lumber core hardwood.
You posted a link that had NO Hard Maple lumber core plywood. I even asked you what the hell you were linking to, and you never answered me.
Quoted from kvan99:You point to the soft iron magnet core dimple over the huge craters in the wood to tell us Stell is harder than wood.
Think of what you are saying.
If the solid steel magnet core is covered in dimples, do you expect that the wood right next to it, will be dimple free?
How would that be possible?
Quoted from kvan99:But you want us to beleive your word (which yiou have no proof of) over our eyes.
You posted the **proof** yourself with that BM66 picture.
1/2" thick piece of steel covered in dimples, and right next to it 1/2" Hard Maple covered in dimples.
What wood is harder than steel?
Look at it with your own eyes!
Quoted from flynnibus:Clearly its not normal... not all PFs look like those extreme examples we see.
#1 those BM66 games came from the factory with an amazing polish. Better than any other Stern I've ever seen.
#2 new games are fully lit playfield designs. Until just a few years ago, games were dingy and dark, even with LEDs installed.
I'm used to seeing playfields out of their cabs.
I'm used to seeing playfields under intense 5000k Chroma50 lighting.
People give me their 2 month old HUO games to protect with a clearcoat all the time (probably once they decide that the game is a keeper).
I see how dimpled they all are. I see some badass craters, I see smiley faces, I see that odd dimple tucked away and wonder how did a ball possibly drop there.
When some of the other famous playfield restorers and I talk, we just laugh when newbies are crying about dimples, because we all see the same thing, every time.
We never see game with soft wood, we never see games with different dimple depths outside of the norms.
If we ever saw a playfield that had remarkable dimples, We'd post a ton of pictures.
You know we would.
Quoted from kvan99:A plywood from India made from Maple from N. America
https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/maple-plywood-13288947462.html
Again, that's not Lumber Core.
You are trying to find anything to argue about.
Any tiny straw to grasp at.
Please just put me on ignore!
Quoted from kvan99:Not if it's an alloy of Magnesium and Zinc.
Again, you are wildly grasping at any straw in the haystack.
No wood is harder than Iron.
So if the magnet core is dimpling, even if made from Iron, Steel, Cast Iron, Nickel Steel, Stainless Steel, the wood around it will not be harder.
Quoted from kvan99:Come on Vid man, don't get angry, but can we stop moving the goal post? I'm answering your quote above, no hard maple plywood except from N. America.
You keep trying to find some tiny semantical difference to argue about.
Since the 1930s, pinball playfields have been of LUMBER CORE HARD MAPLE PLYWOOD.
(I know you are going to argue, so I will reiterate that a few JJP and Stern playfields were made from Baltic Birch plywood in the 2010s)
There are millions of products called Maple Plywood, made all over the world. Those products are NOT what we are talking about here.
Quoted from flynnibus:I think the polished clear certainly makes the dimples stand out more... but I think I'm comparing like to like.
Like I've said a million times.
Put those games on route.
And let's revisit them after 20 years of doing what they were made to do.
THEN we can see if the dimples evened out.
-
Back in the Bally days, occasionally a few playfields would completely lose all their ink in the first few months of use.
Mind you, we would be buying them in quantities of 20+ games. Never were all 30 games bad, just one or two.
Bally would send our distributor a new, populated playfield in a big wooden crate.
Those bad playfield screenings are gone from the gene pool.
Those playfields went in the dumpster after we stripped parts from them.
Bally did not even want them as proof, lol.
Same thing with old guitars. People say how great their 60s Stratocaster is, and how they can't make guitars like that anymore.
But the reality is that over 50 years, the crappy guitars got smashed, flooded, given to kids to learn on. The amazing guitars got cherished, kept out of basements, and rose to be the cream of the crop.
A newbie, just entering the guitar market, will believe "Wow, those old guitars were great!", and he can see the proof with his own two eyes. Someone who has been working on guitars for 50 years will tell you that there were a lot more dogs than diamonds......
Quoted from jellikit:I don't have a horse in this race, but here is a recently uploaded picture of a HUO BSD.
Brad
That sucks that somebody ruined it.
It would have been worth a fortune if it were never played.
Quoted from kvan99:I believe the magnet core is not solid steel it's most likely an alloy of soft Magnesium and Iron......
Quoted from kvan99:Not if it's an alloy of Magnesium and Zinc.
Quoted from kvan99:The magnet core is not hardend steel,
The parts the ball touches are indeed Stainless Steel (thanks Jody!)
Quoted from kvan99:with all the stuff about the lumber being Maple all the way through?
Do you know what lumber is?
Quoted from kvan99:Or the fact that Maple plywood is only sourced in N. America?
Do you know how many different products are made called "maple plywood" ?
Quoted from kvan99:Besides, now we all know you might shilling for Stern.
Do you know how to use the English language properly?
C'mon man, keep grasping.....
Quoted from kvan99:Dude, I listed the CPR quote because you said the pfs were made from Maple all the way through....myth busted.
Like everyone keeps telling you, CPR does NOT make playfields for Stern.
You also keep purposely omitting the Birch playfields, no matter how many times you are told about their existence.
There is not even a myth to be busted in your nonsensical statement.
Quoted from kvan99:Then you said it was made from "Lumber Core Plywood, only from N. America....I listed the companies that sell Lumber Core Plywood....myth busted.
Again (for the 4th time) you have not shown any Hard Maple Lumber Core for sale.
You keep saying you found some, but you don't know how to post a working link (or you, more likely, simply have not found any).
-
Please, let's hear more about your softer than wood iron, and lumber being Maple all the way through, you are truly fascinating.
Quoted from metallik:Can't believe this is 13 pages long now and some of you can't grasp the fact that there was, for whatever reason, just a crummy batch of playfields around BM66 production time
That's Pinside in a nutshell for you.
Pindicks posting the same picture from 2 years ago, crying about a game they don't own, and could never afford anyway.
I have a BM66 being routed by King of Cranes, and other than a few slivers of ghosting (I've posted the pics), there is nothing wrong with it.
Checker Bar has had one deployed since Feb of last year, there is nothing wrong with it.
Pinball Petes has one deployed since Christmas 2016, there is nothing wrong with it.
Get ready Pinside, the picture of the Star Trek playfield that got wet is going to be posted next!!!!!!!!!!1
Quoted from kvan99:Well Vid, I won't believe anything you're saying anymore. Pinside can decide for themselves. The revelation here is that we are being told otherwise by a guy who has a relationship with Stern.
PS: I wonder how many other influential people here are bought off.
Crazy-boy,
Who says I have ANY relationship with Stern?
When was the last time ANY employee of Stern has spoken with me?
What was the subject of our conversation?
Did you remember to take your medication? All of it?
Quoted from kvan99:A woman name Jody, that has Stern repair docs?.....Ok, I'll buy it.
Every person named Jody that I know is a woman.
It's like people tell me that they know a guy named Kim, but I've only met female Kim's.
I lead a sheltered life, I know.....
Quoted from kvan99:But Vid, isn't this a different Jody from the one you were talking about? The other Jody that took you a day to clear up after my posting?
Why do half of your posts make absolutely no sense in the English language?
Now I took a day to clear up a different Jody????
Did you mean to say I cleaned up a Joey?
Quoted from kvan99:I actually have a real job, I'm multi-tasking, but carry on with the interesting pictures, please.
We had to hire some mentally disabled people at our company too; I'm glad they found a position for your abilities.
See if you can get someone at your job to translate your posts so we can understand them.
We all are wanting to clear up our different Jody's
ra,triblend_tee,x2150,black_triblend,front-c,367,133,750,1000-bg,f8f8f8.u1 (resized).jpg
Quoted from kvan99:I guess you're upset...watch some porn and fix some machines, it will cheer you up.
You keep fantasizing that I'm upset.
That's a very odd thing; but if you are trying to multitask, your subconscious desires may be gurgling to the top .
Anytime someone asks you for clarification, you dodge.
Quoted from kvan99:Vid, there is no dodge, you called me (and others), Flat-earthers, Pindicks, and now mentally handicapped. I think we should stop responding to one another. I still very much appreciate your repair threads.
I'm a mean old man that calls 'em as I see 'em.
I'll graciously accept your bow-out and the Cleared Up Different Jody will forever remain a Pinside mystery.
Good day, fine sir!
Quoted from Marvin:how was this not source noted?
I though everyone would recognize it instantly. Pinball Wizard Orgy
You can't be a real pinhead and not have it in your collection.
It's got all the greatest games: Time Machine, Funhouse, BOP, TZ, The Shadow
It's kinda R-rated by comparison to today's porn, but back then at least the broads were still skinny.
PWO has fallen into the public domain so you can see all your favorite games for free
1 week later
Quoted from MrBally:Let's get Steve "the king of flow" to weigh in on this.
It would be totally badass if he could make a video, and tell us once and for all if older playfields dimpled; because no one has seen more brand new playfields than him.
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider vid1900.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
