Quoted from PanzerFreak:The reports of severe dimplying on Stern playfields could very well be those that were made by FUN, not Mirco. I'm not sure if FUN is still making playfields for Stern. If Stern is using multiple manufacturers for playfields this could also explain why some Stern playfields dimple more severely then others.
That is a very good point, especially since they apparently made the defective GB playfields with all the ghosting inserts.
Quoted from vid1900:3/4" thick CF is $621 a square foot (that's if you order 10,000 feet), so a playfield size piece would cost $4,661
Then add the fact of how fast it chews up the CNC router bits.
Then add that it conducts electricity
Then add that a playfield size sheet would weigh 50lbs
By the time an actual playfield was produced, it might be cheaper to buy a 2nd game.
Well, you don't have to get CF at 3/4" thick. You can get it in thicknesses of .010 and .020" thick. You would not want a solid sheet. You could get a play field size honeycomb panel that would weight about 5 pounds.
I used to work for Beechcraft on one of the composite business jets. I used to work with sandwich panels with CF on both sides and a honeycomb material sandwiched between. They are rigid and very light weight. I would imagine that a CF panel with a wall thickness of .040 would handle any impact a steel ball in a pinball machine could throw at it, But at the same time CF can delaminate/separate. CF/Kevlar is great for fishing poles and you can take a sheet of .030 and bend it double with a large radius. But if you were carrying a screwdriver and tripped and the point of the screwdriver impacted a .020 panel the screwdriver is going to poke a hole all the way through the panel (ask me how I know this). That said, I doubt that a pinball traveling at pinball speeds would damage the panel.
Kevlar/CF cloth for bullet proof vests is one thing, but a thin rigid panel is not a bullet stopper. As noted a thin sheet will not stand up to a screwdriver.
A couple of other important items to know when working with CF panels: The stuff, while not impact resistant as you would think, is hard. It will dull a standard drill bit in about two spins. So you have to use special cutting tools to machine and drill holes. And those cutting tool are not cheap. In addition, when drilling and cutting CF/Kevlar graphite, graphite powder is generated which requires you to keep a HEPA vacuum cleaner working as you do your machine work.
About electricity: The CF we worked with would not conduct electricity. However, the top layer on an aircraft fuselage was a vey light copper mesh and if we needed to make a fuselage repair the last ply of material we laid down was copper mesh. The copper mesh had to be there to allow an airborne plane absorb electricity from a lightening strike while in flight but even this was not enough to absorb all of the electricity. The outside electrical mesh was ground to the inside of the fuselage and then we had to attached specifically pieces of aluminum sheets from the front of the fuselage all the way to the back as further protection of conducting electricity from a lightening strike.
I think a CF honeycomb panel for a play field would work famously, but I don't think we could afford to buy one.
The TWD I played at Cactus Jacks in Oklahoma City had lots of dimples. With the house lighting and the game lighting, they were ugly looking. They reminded me of the Suriname toad that carries its babies in holes on its back.
Ever notice how car finishes today are less durable than years past? Modern finishes are softer and less durable because of environmental standards which have caused these finishes to be reformulated with less harsh chemicals. I suspect the clear coating used on modern machines has also been affected in this regard. And playfields today are much more glossy than vintage machines so dimpling will show up more. And the speed of the balls, airballs, VUK's and various drops are all going to cause issues. These aren't museum machines, they are meant to make money for commercial placement. Keep things clean and waxed and don't sweat it. It's all about having fun.
Quoted from Flowst:That said, I found his choice of eye wear distracting The video attempts to post a factual message but comes across condescending, which is unfortunate.
He looks like a taller version of Eddie "The Brain" Creatchman.
Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
I’ve noticed dimpling seems far more noticeable on a dark or black playfield section vs. a light colored one. My TNA has some fairly nasty dimpling in the dark section in front of the left scoop kickout, right where the light from the LCD reflects off the clearcoat, really accents it.
Nothing to be done about it, but it feels like getting that first scratch on a new car. Which is why I usually buy used... 
Quoted from jwilson:Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
That would be a goldmine if known!
Too bad the toxicity of Pinside has chased away the two who might share that info.
Quoted from jwilson:Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
Are you talking about Zaccaria pinball?
Quoted from jwilson:Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
Pretty sure it involved paella somehow.
So now that dimpling is the new black, what happens to the plastic inserts that don't dimple. Will they eventually be raised - (ie sit higher on the pf since they don't get compressed like the wood)? Funny, but if anything old PF's have sunken inserts. But they should have raised inserts!?!?!? 
The very first game my dad brought home was a Gottlieb Volley in 1979
Which got us started .We still have the game today, 68,000 plays and the playfield is near perfect.Not one dimple. Im in construction,I know quality materials, cheap plywood ,
Poor clearcoat thats my thoughts
Quoted from cooked71:Funny, but if anything old PF's have sunken inserts. But they should have raised inserts!?!?!?
It's a conspiracy I tell you! 
Quoted from whitey:The very first game my dad brought home was a Gottlieb Volley in 1979
Which got us started .We still have the game today, 68,000 plays and the playfield is near perfect.Not one dimple. Im in construction,I know quality materials, cheap plywood ,
Poor clearcoat thats my thoughts
I have played Volley as well...no ramps, slow ball speed, no airballs or balls falling off wireforms...apples and oranges
Quoted from jwilson:Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
If it's good, it has probably been found to be cancer causing and is now therefore banned.
Quoted from jwilson:Does anyone know the actual formula for the playfield coating those Italian/Spanish games got that is basically indestructible?
I thought they were reverse printed under a plexi layer. I'm talking about games like Bushido.
I'd rather NOT get cancer from my pinball machines thank you!
Do PF protectors have cancer causing agents? 
It's really simple isn't it? Put a rubber on OR play natural and don't worry about it. If you are married to your pins why wear a rubber? 
If its a pin you hope to play a ton and wear it out then ONE DAY just send it out to HEP for a total restore.
That gets me thinking, is there a HEP for wives? Better than new?
Just because a pin has a PF protector on it, and it has 40,000 plays, the rest of the machine will show those plays and it wouldn't matter one iota to me if a 40k play pin had a nice PF (now shooter lane is a different story 
)
Wax your PF and change out your balls.
I wonder what possessed him to release this video now, I haven't heard much about dimpling since the early run Star Wars machines. This just seem to be bringing it all up again. Seems like a very poor PR move. Did I miss a recent thread on this?
Quoted from Darscot:I wonder what possessed him to release this video now, I haven't heard much about dimpling since the early run Star Wars machines. This just seem to be bringing it all up again. Seems like a very poor PR move. Did I miss a recent thread on this?
Steve is the King and the King does what he wants.
What possesses Pinside to obsess about this stuff? Who knows. All I know is people keep saying they want more communication...well...mission accomplished!
Quoted from vid1900:That would be a goldmine if known!
Too bad the toxicity of Pinside has chased away the two who might share that info.
I love your posts... so much that i just clicked to only show your posts in this thread.. The bullshit is called out.. the misinformation is corrected and laughs are had..
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Spanish games have plexiglass
Italian games have cancer causing but super durable pfs
I doubt they used anything that was any worse than anyone else was using at the time, and all CCs are 'cancer causing'. Main difference these days is that the VOCs are designed to off-gas more quickly, rather than leeching out of them for years.
People think formaldehyde has been eliminated from adhesives, wood glues, and treatments, but it hasn't. Albeit there is less of it. Cheap ply (like the stuff Stern use for their cabs) is absolutely rife with it and other nasty stuff - hence the distinctive sickly sweet aroma that they keep for years.
That Italian games (Zacc) had some kind of weapons grade nasties in them and that a number of the line workers died very quickly is just an urban myth AFAIK.
The wood, both cabinet and pf, is just really top notch. At least it is on my Farfalla. Mine might have seen relatively little use, but everything inside the cabinet literally looks like it just came out of the factory. Everything except the flipper bats (which are total crap) is serious quality. The standard of the plastics, prints and metal beat anything else I've ever seen easily.
You can make fun of someone because they got a bad tattoo, or married the same woman twice; but it's never cool to mock someone because of a handicap or medical condition.
Robin, do you wonder why most pinball companies have abandoned posting on Pinside???
Quoted from iceman44:That gets me thinking, is there a HEP for wives? Better than new?
I believe its called Les Vegas...
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:Italian games have cancer causing but super durable pfs
Yes, cancer. Because I plan to drill, sand, and lick the playfield daily.
I'll take it!
I can think of worse things to get cancer from than pinball.
Quoted from vid1900:You can make fun of someone because they got a bad tattoo, or married the same woman twice; but it's never cool to mock someone because of a handicap or medical condition.
Robin, do you wonder why most pinball companies have abandoned posting on Pinside???
Well Vid I didn’t know the man had a Medical condition, some people just wear sunglasses all the time even when thy are indoors.
Quoted from Concretehardt:Well Vid I didn’t know the man had a Medical condition.
Your comment was fine, its not like he is wearing the shades they give you after eye surgery. He is wearing Oakleys and they lens are not at all the same. My wife had surgery and the first they tell you is to wear the shades they give you and don't just switch to your regular sunglasses.
Quoted from Darscot:Your comment was fine,...
Thanks Doc.
Quoted from Darscot:...My wife had surgery and the first they tell you ....
Is SR heading up to back-bacon land for his medical team now? 
Quoted from iceman44:Just because a pin has a PF protector on it, and it has 40,000 plays, the rest of the machine will show those plays and it wouldn't matter one iota to me if a 40k play pin had a nice PF (now shooter lane is a different story )
C'mon, nice playfields do matter.
Quoted from sudsy7:C'mon, nice playfields do matter.
Yep. Just send the one on the left out for a nice HEP restore and we are good to go!
Quoted from iceman44:This thread has taken a fantastic turn like the good old days.
Won’t last long unfortunately
Where's the photoshop guy? This thread needs a Steve with rose-colored glasses to be complete.
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