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(Topic ID: 214129)

Steve Ritchie discusses Pinball Playfield "Dimpling"


By StylesBitchly

2 years ago



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  • 714 posts
  • 172 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by jellikit
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    There are 714 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 15.
    #101 2 years ago

    Because then you could go to all the dimpling threads and present your data and be more persuasive. Otherwise people will just argue with you and not necessarily believe you.

    #102 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    Well, when someone puts a gauge to current Stern PF wood (as they did) and it comes up SOFTER than the current competition OR Bally Williams playfields, that's a FACT and likely the primary reason for the dimpling - Stern cost cutting to use softer and/or less cured/dry wood. Stern cheaped out on cabinet wood too, sometime after KISS, installing leg brackets you can FEEL how soft the newer cabs are when you drill into them. Cabs are hidden cost cutting, but on the PF not so hidden. Trying to explain it away like this is gross.

    I think you missed the part where I had the answer. I don’t. I am tired of folks making stuff up. Be a scientist, get real data, back it up with research and get it validated. All I see is constant armchair diagnosis to be honest.

    #103 2 years ago

    Oh boy, dimples AGAIN?!

    D5EA9D01-A401-4C80-8978-09DE579485C9 (resized).jpeg

    #104 2 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Because then you could go to all the dimpling threads and present your data and be more persuasive. Otherwise people will just argue with you and not necessarily believe you.

    Just pulled in Procrastinator's gauge testing results, which bear out that Stern has the softest playfields of everyone overall. A few Stern bright spots, but not many recently.

    #105 2 years ago
    Quoted from Nokoro:

    How can you tell it has zero dimpling vs 100% dimpling with 40,000 plays.

    This!!

    It’s hard to see dimples on games with thousands of plays on them. They cover the playfield so completely after a while, it becomes flat again

    #106 2 years ago
    Quoted from pintechev:

    I think you missed the part where I had the answer. I don’t. I am tired of folks making stuff up. Be a scientist, get real data, back it up with research and get it validated. All I see is constant armchair diagnosis to be honest.

    I think you missed the post where I pulled in the data of playfields from all eras tested with a gauge and Stern having the softest playfields overall. Page 2, end of the page. Completely opposes the "made up" Stern party line - with facts.

    #107 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    I think you missed the post where I pulled in the data of playfields from all eras tested with a gauge and Stern having the softest playfields overall. Page 2, end of the page. Completely opposes the "made up" Stern party line - with facts.

    Link?

    #108 2 years ago

    It's a key post, but it's not showing up yet. Just go to page 2 of this thread and scroll to the bottom.

    EDIT: Link showing up in the key post index at the top of each page now.

    #109 2 years ago
    Quoted from indypinhead:

    Yeah, I've always wondered what's up w/ people that wear sunglasses indoors.

    If it is a professional camera production going on there is going to lots of high powered lighting aimed at the subject. Some people's eyes cannot handle the bright lights.

    #110 2 years ago

    Some of you guys are kinda missing the point.

    How can the Stern playfields made by Mirco, be any softer than the JJP playfields made by Mirco?

    Same manufacturer, same Birch plywood, same clearcoat.

    Factual answers only please; I'll take my answer off the air.....

    #111 2 years ago
    Quoted from chubtoad13:

    This!!

    It’s hard to see dimples on games with thousands of plays on them. They cover the playfield so completely after a while, it becomes flat again

    How does that make sense? If 1000s of dimples compress the wood to where its all the same level (and thus flat again), then wouldn't there be change in the height of the surface between where the ball travels and where it does not (like under the slingshot)?

    Maybe I'm missing something.

    #112 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Some of you guys are kinda missing the point.
    How can the Stern playfields made by Mirco, be any softer than the JJP playfields made by Mirco?
    Same manufacturer, same Birch plywood, same clearcoat.
    Factual answers only please; I'll take my answer off the air.....

    The reports of severe dimplying on Stern playfields could very well be those that were made by FUN, not Mirco. I'm not sure if FUN is still making playfields for Stern. If Stern is using multiple manufacturers for playfields this could also explain why some Stern playfields dimple more severely then others.

    #113 2 years ago

    that link is very helpful vireland & timebandit and part of the puzzle and if put together with video and further tests it would show the differences between old and new playfield and between manufacturers.

    #114 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Some of you guys are kinda missing the point.
    How can the Stern playfields made by Mirco, be any softer than the JJP playfields made by Mirco?
    Same manufacturer, same Birch plywood, same clearcoat.
    Factual answers only please; I'll take my answer off the air.....

    Mirco has levels of service. He'll do ceramic finishes if you want to pay for it. I'm sure no manufacturer does. His process has changed, too. His earlier PFs were better than his newer stuff. No idea if he offers grades of wood to manufacturers to cut costs.

    I would love to see a deep dive into why the most recent playfields from Stern (especially) suck, with charts (and graphs!) showing type of wood, wood density, clear process (hot cure, slow cure), etc. But it would be expensive and I doubt we'll ever see it.

    But the hardness gauge test HAS been done and many Sterns are confirmed the softest, so that's plenty to call Steve's video Stern propaganda.

    #115 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    Mirco has levels of service. He'll do ceramic finishes if you want to pay for it. I'm sure no manufacturer does. His process has changed, too. His earlier PFs were better than his newer stuff. No idea if he offers grades of wood to manufacturers to cut costs.

    Good points. Doesn't Churchill Cabinet Company make cabinets for Stern, JJP, and PPS yet the Stern cabinets are not as high of quality as ordered by JJP and PPS? Sounds like a manufacturer can offer similar products but at varying levels of quality depending on materials used.

    #116 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    Mirco has levels of service. He'll do ceramic finishes if you want to pay for it. I'm sure no manufacturer does. His process has changed, too. His earlier PFs were better than his newer stuff. No idea if he offers grades of wood to manufacturers to cut costs.

    Thus there are too many variables to make a thin air comparison.

    -

    Like I always say:

    Bring your **no dimple** playfield to Expo.

    I'll bring a Jenka testing rig (the only professional way wood hardness is tested), and we'll test it.

    Show me a Birch playfield that is harder than a Maple playfield.

    Show me a Maple playfield that is harder than another Maple playfield.

    THEN we can talk meaningfully.

    #117 2 years ago

    a bit of explanation of testing and what timbers are better than others

    screen-capture-4.png
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    #118 2 years ago

    Here you can see woods that playfields are made from.

    Harder = higher Janka number.

    Janka_Chart (resized).jpg

    #119 2 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    Get a pinball machine. Any pinball machine. Take off the apron. Hold a pinball 300mm above the surface and drop it. You will get a dimple with a diameter of 4.2 +- 0.2mm. I have done this dozens of times on machines of all eras. It’s so simple to verify for yourself.

    I just did you dimple test challenge. And the winner is...................

    The play field is a Classic Stern Big Game, circa 1980, that I'm restoring. I never noticed any dimples before I took it down to restore it. It is clearcoated and the clear has had 8 months to cure. I dropped a ball 3 times in the apron area. I did not do any measuring. I dropped it from about 12 inches high. And....you cannot see them, they are small, but I got 3 dimples. Small dimples that you cannot see but you can feel them. I think I will move onto other things in the pinball world to talk about.

    #120 2 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    Where is this wonderful place that you can get over 100 plays a day for two years? That's 6-7 hours of non-stop play each day. Bravo.

    Chrizg runs a few Up / Downs. All games are $.25 and on some days only $.05 and the place is almost always packed. Around here it's mostly hipsters and casual players that wouldn't last 2 minutes on a typical pinball machine, let alone a game like Ghostbusters. If it's possible to get that many plays anywhere, it would be there.

    #121 2 years ago

    The Youtube video that came directly after the video linked on the first post here was awesome . Not sure if it would be the next video for everyone but it was a walk through of the Stern factory. Nice to see a bunch of people building pinball machines . They were assembling Iron Maidens , quite a few people working and there was a bunch of Iron Maidens in various stages of completion . I thought that was pretty cool .

    #122 2 years ago
    Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

    Old tree, stronger wood. Young trees, soft wood. That is a fact.

    Funny, I had a similar conversation with the younger gals at work the other day....

    #123 2 years ago
    Quoted from JJHLH:

    No wood will ever win a toughness contest against a steel ball. We even see dimpling on metal magnets, and metal is much harder than any wood.

    Hey, I have an idea, we should all use wooden balls.

    #124 2 years ago

    What's with the sunglasses? I thought he was a pinball designer not a rock star. Have all the translite signings etc at shows gone to his head?

    #125 2 years ago
    Quoted from Slash:

    What's with the sunglasses? I thought he was a pinball designer not a rock star. Have all the translite signings etc at shows gone to his head?

    Cataract surgery.

    #126 2 years ago
    Quoted from chubtoad13:

    This!!
    It’s hard to see dimples on games with thousands of plays on them. They cover the playfield so completely after a while, it becomes flat again

    They should make a dimple machine that dimples the play field flat before installing inserts and painting. We could call it the "Many Dimple Machine".

    #127 2 years ago

    Where does one go to get their eyeballs calibrated for accuracy of these dimple-depth observation statements?

    #128 2 years ago

    Sunglasses....more likely beer goggles!

    #129 2 years ago

    So for those who want to fixate on the hardness test data, let's get some context. A range of hardness numbers from 200-140 will change a dimple diameter from 3.7mm - 3.1mm.

    So, for this list in the "key" post , I'll put the difference in dimple size next to it..

    (Stern) GB PRO: 92-104 HB : 4.2mm
    (CGC) MMR: 119 HB : 4.0
    (Stern) GB PRE: 133 HB :3.8
    (Stern) TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB) : 3.75
    (Stern) TRON: 155 HB :3.55
    (Stern) MET: 157 HB :3.55
    (Stern) ST PRE: 161 HB :3.45
    (JJP) TH: 163 HB :3.45
    (Bally) TOM: 170 HB :3.4
    (Bally) AFM: 177 HB :3.3
    (Stern) LOTRLE: 178 HB :3.3
    (Williams) NGG: 181 HB :3.25
    (JJP) WOZ: 184 HB :3.25

    So the hardness data does nothing to indicate whether something dimples or not, or even if the difference is significant. Good luck determining the half a millimeter difference in the average size of all your dimples, which is exactly the difference indicated by the "$10k" hardness test machine.

    #130 2 years ago

    Woz is the worst PF I’ve ever owned and yet it doesn’t matter

    Get em Vid!

    Now we are going to argue about the diameter of the dimples. I love it!

    #131 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Some of you guys are kinda missing the point.
    How can the Stern playfields made by Mirco, be any softer than the JJP playfields made by Mirco?
    Same manufacturer, same Birch plywood, same clearcoat.
    Factual answers only please; I'll take my answer off the air.....

    The answer - either implied or literal - is that “stern hates us and/or is cheap.”

    It’s completly emotional and makes no sense. Nothing has changed in playfield development and production in many years.

    #132 2 years ago

    Leave poor Ritchie alone! He’s only been around and designed pinball most of his adult life.

    But I’m sure the Stern hating “newbies” know better

    What he is really saying, in a nice way, is that we are all a bunch of F ing dopes for arguing about it

    #133 2 years ago
    Quoted from Slash:

    What's with the sunglasses? I thought he was a pinball designer not a rock star. Have all the translite signings etc at shows gone to his head?

    A lot of people are light sensitive due to eye issues.

    #134 2 years ago

    For fuck sakes. Can I get a "Pinside rating" on this thread? It's gotta be off the charts.

    #135 2 years ago

    Ve

    Quoted from TheLaw:For fuck sakes. Can I get a "Pinside rating" on this thread? It's gotta be off the charts.

    It’s very close to “best of Pinside” status.

    #136 2 years ago

    I have never payed any attention I just play and have fun. #drama

    #137 2 years ago

    I know Ive learned alot about wood density today. NERDS.
    All I know is that I want my playfield made from; Jatobo/Brazillian Cherry, not to be confused with domestic cherry.

    -4
    #138 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    The answer - either implied or literal - is that “stern hates us and/or is cheap.”
    It’s completly emotional and makes no sense. Nothing has changed in playfield development and production in many years.

    That is such garbage. My TZ is what 26 years old and looks steller. My Ghostbusters has divots all over it. Personally, it doesn't bother me, I know how it works but to say that there is no difference is crazy.

    Stern is cheap. Fact.

    Oh, and he looks like a moron wearing sunglasses...

    12
    #140 2 years ago

    Steve!
    Steve!
    Steve, look at my left hand....
    got em.
    ec8b9304620236823bc82c8fa0eac499d04502c7 (resized).jpg

    #141 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Woz is the worst PF I’ve ever owned and yet it doesn’t matter
    Get em Vid!
    Now we are going to argue about the diameter of the dimples. I love it!

    It's only science if we can control the variables.

    WOZ came in both a Birch and a Maple playfield - which one was tested?

    MET came in both a Birch and a Maple playfield - again, which one was tested?

    Old games could have been made from Churchill, Lec-Smith, Sun Process, TAG, EAC, the more popular the title, the more likely you can find multiple playfield manufacturers of the same game- which one was tested?

    Wood from the same tree will have different hardness. Are we testing directly on a ring (the dark part) or the light part next to it?

    Are we doing multiple tests, 4" apart on each sample to get the average?

    Are we testing under the apron where no compression has already taken place?

    Maple has to be at 9% moisture to glue it into plywood, but are we measuring the CURRENT moisture at the time of testing? Has the plywood become less moist over the years?

    Do we have enough samples of each title in each wood species? A trend can't be discovered with a single sample.

    #142 2 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    A trend can't be discovered with a single sample.

    This is against all pinside logic.

    #143 2 years ago
    Quoted from Nokoro:

    How can you tell it has zero dimpling vs 100% dimpling with 40,000 plays.

    This is exactly what it is. You have a wms/bally with 50000 plays so it is all dimpled 100% all over.

    #144 2 years ago

    Dare you question the wood master...

    Quoted from ypurchn:

    This is against all pinside logic.

    13
    #145 2 years ago
    Quoted from Spencer:

    That is such garbage. My TZ is what 16 years old and looks steller.

    Shlt, you are lucky!

    Mine has got to be 25 years old already.

    #146 2 years ago
    Quoted from vireland:

    I think you missed the post where I pulled in the data of playfields from all eras tested with a gauge and Stern having the softest playfields overall. Page 2, end of the page. Completely opposes the "made up" Stern party line - with facts.

    Dude, the craziness of this statement and other related posts shows me that logic again doesn't seem to matter here on the forum. You are comparing six stern machines across eras which show a variety of hardnesses. And at this time they are being compared to one CGC pin, two JJP pins, two Bally pins, and one Williams pin. LOL, as if samples of one or two pins are representative of a manufacturer overall. Basic math stats logic laughs at such comparisons; it's fake news.

    NEED MORE DATA.

    #147 2 years ago

    I didn't know Vid was a ventriloquist. I want a Steve Ritchie puppet, too. Wait a miniute, on second thought, there's not enough hand cleaner in the world!

    #148 2 years ago
    Quoted from TimeBandit:

    indicated by the "$10k" hardness test machine.

    More like $200k for a basic one from Instron.

    #149 2 years ago

    Have to start calling him “Stevie” Ritchie...

    2DE7EDCD-4AC5-4B4A-8480-C9DB9CCB7239 (resized).jpeg

    #150 2 years ago

    As long as something doesn’t affect play...I could care less. Don’t get me wrong, I want my game to look good, but above all perform/play good. I have dimples. But I play the sh!t out of them, and have a blast doing it.

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