(Topic ID: 239218)

Black Knight Sword of Rage!!! - Sterns next machine!!!

By Blacksun

6 months ago

Topic Stats

  • 3,998 posts
  • 616 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 34 days ago by Chalkey
  • Topic is favorited by 99 Pinsiders


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Topic index (key posts)

11 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #1 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by Blacksun (6 months ago)

Post #139 Info about legal entities - licensing Posted by PPS (6 months ago)

Post #425 Link to pictures and interview of SR Posted by ASOA (6 months ago)

Post #449 Pictures of the game Posted by NeilMcRae (6 months ago)

Post #482 High resolution cabinet pictures Posted by BoJo (6 months ago)

Post #505 Rule card Posted by PinB (6 months ago)

Post #517 Gameplay videos Posted by PinB (6 months ago)

Post #521 Link to interviews Posted by PinB (6 months ago)

Post #647 Feature matrix Posted by ovfdfireman (6 months ago)

Post #3606 Explains how the upper PK is mounted Posted by swilson143 (4 months ago)

Post #3758 A message from God Posted by newtoit (3 months ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#52 6 months ago

Interesting that is says licensed from "Williams Electronic Games", since WMS doesn't exist anymore. Scientific Games bought them a few years back. WMS doesn't even exist as a subsidiary anymore, just a label at SG.

Maybe SG they created "Williams Electronic Games" to license WMS IP?

#61 6 months ago

Steve must have had a blast making this after the rough time he had making Star Wars.

#78 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Sweet! Hope Lyman is on code.

Lyman is doing Elvira 3.

#111 6 months ago
Quoted from PPS:

WMS (Williams Electronics Group) certainly does exist and never ceased to exist ... WEG is a subsidiary within Scientific Games under Bally Technologies ...

When SG bought WMS in 2013, it was a whole owned subsidiary until 2016, when it was completely absorbed into SG. A quick trip over to SG website shows WMS as a label only...and not under Bally, but side by side.


#171 6 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I feel like Stern and PPS exactly know the legal entities that they have to license from and give credit to.

Wasn't questioning that. Was trying to determine what WEG is in relation to WMS, and how it fits inside of the parent company SG based on what's publically available.

#172 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You're gonna use website layout as the citation for the legal entities and internal structure of a company... against the guy who actually interfaces with the humans and legal contracts in said organization?

You've been an ass all day, following me around and downvoting any post I make.

Go home, you're drunk.

#180 6 months ago
Quoted from BlackKnight3000:

Interesting that the "Sword of Rage" is actually Trademarked by Williams not Stern.
Why would Williams own the Trademark to a new game if it is licensed from a pre-existing game?
Some of you have said the video has already been taken down, so here it is again.
I guess my Avatar name was positively prescient! The only way "BK3000" would be any better is if they mixed BK2000 and Swords of Fury together!

Even if Ritchie came up with it, the deal might include SG/Williams owning it. They may use it for a slot machine.

#268 6 months ago

According to Pinball Paparazzi, those pics are the Pro model.

#310 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Also, not sure if I'm seeing this correctly but the Black Knight figure in the middle looks like its holding pinballs and that the balls are loaded from the rail behind it. Could be a pretty cool toy if it's an interactive figure that holds pinball and tosses them back at the player.
[quoted image]

And that's just the Pro.

#532 6 months ago

Looks like a solid Pro. The main difference seems to be the upper playfield, ramps, VUK, and ball lock that go with it.

Pro has almost all RGB playfield inserts (24 vs. 26), Magna Save, and the same Black Knight mech.

Has any Pro every had that many RGB Playfield inserts? They are usually just the 6-8 shots.

Pro even has 2 spinners compared to 1 for Premium. I find that funny.

A lot will come down to how cool the upper playfield is during the game.

#702 6 months ago

This is a different video of the game from Stern than was going around earlier from IGN article. Seems to be Pro only.

#733 6 months ago
Quoted from Medisinyl:

From a distributor e-mail I received:
PRO $5799
Premium $7499
LE $8999
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That's high if it's the disto's price.

#743 6 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Stern website has $5999, $7599, and $8999. I'm guessing $5799 and $7499 and $8999 are pretty normal. (LE's don't usually get discounted)

I was comparing it to my distro's quote.

#752 6 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

You should share your distro then so others can benefit as well from the lower prices.

PM sent

#753 6 months ago
Quoted from Grindle3:

What we advertise for and we can "Quote" are 2 totally diffrent things!

That's true......

#776 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Sorry but the attacks against Dialed In are unwarranted. People walk up to Dialed In and play it because it's a loaded game with a ton of unique features, a great layout and most of all looks like fun. That's what happens when a playfield looks like this and there's HQ animations on screen.
There is NO CONNECTION with BK3 as of yet, the public hasn't even played it yet. If its loud on location no one will be able to hear it either. Time will tell how it does and I hope it does great and will have that connection you are talking about.
[quoted image]

Dialed In looks like Pat Lawlor puked all over the playfield. No coherence, terrible theme, and a terrible concept.

Please stop trying to convince everyone that it's the greatest game ever. We've all read your posts over and over. You haven't changed anyone's mind.

#785 6 months ago
Quoted from MEuRaH:

I love BK, and oddly didn't care for BK2000. BKSoR? This game is intriguing. The Pro model doesn't have the upper playfield. I gotta dish out an extra 1600 plus tax just to have that feature? I dunno yet. I love so many games that don't have an upper playfield, but it feels like BK is supposed to have one, or else it isn't a real BK game.
And what's with all this hate on DI? I came here for BK love, not DI hate. DI is a great game, one of the most challenging games I've ever played. It's comes jam-packed with extras, hard to believe that this game was only 8k brand new. BKLE will be 9k? I hope I get to play it at Pintastic or something.

The main toy/feature of this game is the Black Knight mech. It is unmolested on the Pro.

So the upper playfield isn't as crucial this time around.

#797 6 months ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I was questioning whether the upper playfield is crucial. Your losing the ball locks and similarity to BK2K. Are you losing the MB in the pro?

There is still a MB in the Pro. I believe you lock balls behind the shield, but not sure 100%.

It's a 6 ball game according to the matrix.

#816 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Not trying to change anyone's mind, I understand some people won't like the game, that's expected. I completely disagree with your comment though and looks like many others do as well. Not surprised as you never have anything good to say about JJP, every comment about them is a dig or jab lol.

But they give me so much material to work with!

#817 6 months ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

You still lock balls behind shield in the premium. It’s a different mb

I'm guessing there is still a 6 ball MB in the Pro.

The matrix says it's a 6 ball game. Why would the other 3 balls be in a Pro?

#864 6 months ago

I keep seeing comments about how a Black Knight game without an upper playfield doesn't seem right.

Unlike the first two games, the upper playfield isn't the main mech/feature in Sword of Rage; it's the Black Knight toy itself. So the upper playfield is secondary.

#868 6 months ago
Quoted from mollyspub:

I'm not a fan of the game but I have to agree with you about the upper playfield.
How can this game in any version not have it?

Because the Black Knight toy is the main feature.


#874 6 months ago

LOL! Downvotes!

Some people have trouble grasping what is obvious. The Black Knight toy is the main mech. Period.

Downvotes won't change that fact.

#878 6 months ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

It is not Black Knight without an upper playfield and a third flipper.
[quoted image]

Steve designed it that way, so apparently it is.

Unless, of course, you think you know better than the King himself.

#884 6 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

...and if you think about the first two games, since the upper playfield is wood, the space beneath it doesn't benefit the player at all. They were cool, but it was still kinda like playing a single playfield game with layers. So, it's not like the Pro has half a playfield...it's still a full playfield game. The clear upper playfield actually is something new and exciting for a BK game - cuz you get a whole lower functional PF AND an upper to play on.
I think the Pro will be really cool...for me, the Knight is the main toy/feature and that's still there - and all the awesome music will still be there to pump you up as you play.
I really want to play both...I'm not going to judge one over the other until I can experience them both and make up my own mind.

Well said.

I also haven't seen anyone talking about how the Pro has all RGB lighting in the playfield inserts. That's a first for a Pro.

LEDs started as an LE feature, and worked their way down to being standard on a Pro. This could mark the beginning of that happening for RGB LEDs on all Pros.

#888 6 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Actually i don't think all inserts are rgb..i believe 24 on pro and 26 on the premium/le? Still alot of rgb inserts compared to most stern pins.

Well, 24 out of 26 sounds like a great number to me.

Most Pros have 6-8 RGB inserts based on the main shots. 24 is a massive upgrade.

#1061 6 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I really liked ST and Vengeance modes where the magnet threw the ball back at you.

That was a solenoid.

The magnet just held the ball.

#1097 6 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Not always. Half the factory balls in Iron Maiden Pro on the route were soft or something and looked like disco balls after a few months with hundreds of flat edges where they impacted things. None of it was sharp or burred, but they looked and rolled weird. It DOES happen.

That's why you always replace Stern's balls upon purchase.

#1115 6 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Meh, the factory Stern balls are "good enough" for the first round. This is a route. A new set of balls (4 or 6) goes against income. Tossing them is tossing money out. They do usually get replaced in 6 months or whatever, but they are never tossed out. The disco ball ones were a new one on me, though. Never seen ones that soft, and it wasn't all of them for some reason.

Balls are cheap. I have a box of 100 I dip into. Cost me $1 each.

Cheapest accessory in pinball.

#1164 6 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

I can't imagine $1 balls are any better than what Stern ships with.


That like saying you can't imagine how a 3rd party power supply fan would be better than what ships with a new SPIKE game.

#1167 6 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

If that fan was $1, I would still say that. The point was $1 balls, not aftermarket balls in general.

In bulk they are $1.

I have been very happy with the quality of them.

#1171 6 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Lowest decent balls I've seen in bulk are $1.25. Where are you getting yours?

Pinball Life.

They were $1 when buying 100 or more.

Actually....I think they were under $1 in bulk. I sell them to people locally for $1.

#1208 6 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

I stopped with PBL when they started delivering rusty balls. A couple posts above says they're seeing disco-balled PBL pinballs, too. So, thanks but no thanks.

No issues with them here.

Not worth arguing any further. I literally don't care enough about the topic.

#1242 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

May be in the minority here but I think I prefer the pro layout on Black Knight. The upper playfield on the premium / LE is much smaller then those found on previous Black Knight games and lacks the motorized target bank along with the ball lock behind it.
The ball lock in BK3 premium seems odd and doesn't resemble anything from the theme and comes across as a big chunk of metal with two plastics screwed onto it. Also concerned that Stern won't create a lot of unique code for the upper playfield as they typically don't when it comes to their premium features. The mini playfield in ACDC and Aerosmith are good examples of this. The pro version has the best toy between all versions which is the knight toy in my opinion.
What does this represent from the theme?
[quoted image]

Holy Moley.....did we just agree on something?

#1341 6 months ago

I think that's just how the mech is. It's not wobbly from abuse.

#1537 6 months ago
Quoted from Maken:

If you're thinking about ordering black knight, remember that Stern playfields have a tendency to warp after about 6 months.
You will not be able to level your playfield properly, it will ruin gameplay and they will not help you with a replacement. They will tell you that it meets their quality standards.
Oh, and there's a good chance you'll have extremely visible wood grain right out of the box, ruining the playfield artwork that artists spent many hours on creating. Enjoy!

Go home, you're drunk.

#1585 6 months ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

It seems off to me that Stern would manufacture any version without an upper play field since the game series is well known for the two play fields. Maybe I am crazy.

This has already been discussed ad nauseam. The Black Knight figure is the main mech in this game, not the upper playfield. Besides, unlike the earlier Black Knight games, there's not much going on with the playfield. No pops or rows of drops....just a lock. Plus is blocks part of the castle view.

#1604 6 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Quick comparison of three versions of BK that form it’s legacy -
BK - four timed 3-target banks over two levels. There are three metal ramps, two physical ball locks, two magna-saves, 3 balls and 4 flippers. Real backglass. Cost $1k - $3k.
BK2K - two timed 3-target banks over two levels. There are two ramp, two physical ball locks, two magna-saves, 3 balls and 3 flippers. Cost $3k -$5k.
BK3K prem - one timed target bank over two levels, great art and sound. There is one ramp, two physical ball locks, one magna-save, 6 balls, 3 flippers and one cool toy. Backglass on LE only. Cost $5.5k -$8.5k.

Better adjust those prices to 2019.

#1607 6 months ago

A 2K pin from 1980 (roughly BK's price in 1980) would be over 6K today.

#1628 6 months ago
Quoted from Graysonsdad:

50% of all pinside arguements end in someone acting all indignant.

You are wrong! You don't know what you're talking about!

#1704 6 months ago

I wonder if it's a reverse April Fool's joke. Post it today, assume everyone will think it's a prank, then actually stream it.

#1733 6 months ago
Quoted from Rockytop:

Are they streaming a pro or LE tonight? My guess is pro, but just curious if anyone knew.

Assuming it's not a joke, Pros stream first.

#1973 6 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

Hopefully they will have a Premium/LE at both Deadflip and MGC the way they revealed The Munsters a while back. BK without upper playfield is not BK...

The playfield on this new one doesn't do much, unlike the two 80's versions. Won't be missed.

#1977 6 months ago

Do you also miss 8-Tracks, ZX-80 computers, and Black and White TV's that were encapsulated in a huge piece of furniture?

#1992 6 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Because 6 balls in the trough means what? Nothing to do with the code.

The Wizard mode(s) could shoot out 6. So yeah...it's a 6 ball game on the Pro too.

#2025 6 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I’m really interested in this game and can’t wait for the streams to decide on pro/prem.
One thing bugging me though...if it’s “Sword of Rage” why does he have a flail?

The sword is in the castle.

#2044 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The Willy Wonka vs Black Knight Sword of Rage battle will be on next weekend at MGC. It's going to be fun watching and reading about the public debut for both of these titles next weekend.
Some shade thrown at Black Knight Sword of Rage by Kaneda (who also complimented the game) after playing Willy Wonka today at the JJP factory. His words not mine (I'm excited to see and play Black Knight, latest animation teasers look cool).
"When you put this game next to Black Knight Sword of Rage it's a joke", "Sword of Rage looks like a $7500 game, Willy Wonka looks like it should cost twice as much, it looks like there's twice as much in there, it looks like 10x as much effort went into the game, its comical that these games are separated by $1500 bucks".
[quoted image]

On the other hand....

JJP's Wonka:
Announced April 2019.
Features stripped January 2020.
Ships April 2020.

Special Oompa Loompa version ships in 2023 with even more stripped features and a price increase for glitter on the playfield.

#2045 6 months ago

Ahh......Tank......you're such a snowflake about JJP.

#2047 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

? I didn't post anything bad about BK3 in my reply, excited for it. I can't wait for the reveals of both BK3 and Willy Wonka next week.

You included a Kaneda quote bashing Black Knight vs WONKA.

#2049 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yes, in a general thread about BK3, this is not an owners thread. I'm sure someone else out there will end of saying the exact same about BK3 crushing Wonka.

I don't think BK3 needs to crush WONKA. I've found JJP crushes themselves.

#2062 6 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

If stern would stop cutting every corner they can AND raising prices, everyone would love them to death. The cheapness of their product is often shocking. For example, my IMDNLE plumb bob threads disintegrated in my hand the first time I tried to adjust it. When I looked at it, I realized it's made of some sort of compressed composite that is worse than Chinese pot metal. It's as if they have some company in China that has children gathering metal from the hills and pressing bobs for them. Also, the power supply is absolute garbage, and the mechs are made of crap metal too.
For the record, I love playing Sterns, but they do not have to skimp on hardware like this. JJP games have their issues too, but the issues are not related to finding the absolute cheapest path to production. I'm waiting for the Stern nodes to start failing. Then we'll see how happy all the Stern customers are. Again, I want to love Stern, but their hardware often sucks. Someone else needs to compete at their price range to smarten them up.

Sorry dude, whining about Stern’s node boards is so 2018.

#2105 6 months ago
Quoted from RJW:

Riiiiiiight, no Stern fan boys spewing their venom in JJP threads

That's called a cold dose of reality.

#2154 6 months ago
Quoted from RGR:

Compare the effort on POTC compared with any Stern Maybe cabinet cracking and playfield quality? How about a brand new company being the first to innovate with the LCD and LEDS... Its all a bit sad really.

Stern's AC/DC Premium/LE was the first game with RGB LEDs, not WOZ.

Steve is quite proud of that, and will point that fact out to those who mistakenly thinks it's WOZ.

#2168 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

WOZ was announced in 2011, ACDC 2012. ACDC did ship first and the game contains 16 "tri color" inserts (same as RGB?). WOZ shipped with 100% RGB GI and insert lighting. That's a first and I don't believe Stern has offered a game yet with 100% RGB GI and inserts? Still regret selling my ACDC premium some days, great game.

Announced is meaningless. Announced doesn't mean final product will ship with those features (ala JJP's Pirates).

AC/DC beat WOZ by a year for a game containing RGB lighting.

GOTG Premium/LE has all RGB inserts and GI.

#2169 6 months ago
Quoted from RGR:

Yeah after they knew WOZ was coming out with them....

Hogwash. Stern couldn't give a shit about JJP in the 2011/2012 time era. I'm not sure that they give a shit in 2019.

RGB LED lighting was going to happen in pinball regardless. Stern had already been moving to regular LEDs on their LE models, so the rest was inevitable as prices dropped.

#2173 6 months ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

But if you really look at it they don't do the full-rgb treatment for inserts in a lot of their games, even the Premium/LED version of some of them. RGB GI is even less common in Stern, I'm not convinced that is such a bad thing but it is the truth.

That's a separate debate, and a more subjective one.

This debate was about parts.

#2181 6 months ago
Quoted from RGR:

Sure.. They were never concerned about competition or the embarrassment of a better quality product. Dam your blind.

Yes, because in 2011 when Stern had been solo for over a decade, they were quaking in their boots when Jack announced WOZ.

Damn, you're naive.

#2183 6 months ago
Quoted from javagrind888:

My question, is have they gone to FULL rgb lighting like JJP? Those are impressive, unlike the ones in Star Trek Premium which don't have full range. I'll be super excited if BK has those kinds of LED's

Star Trek Premium/LE RGB's have full range.

The color changers in Star Trek Pro (the shot arrows) do not have full range. I think they did like 8 or 9 colors.

#2184 6 months ago

Steve Ritchie on Star Trek's RGB capabilities and beating WOZ to market.

#2193 6 months ago
Quoted from RGR:

so that would mean the games made today are at the same level as those between 2001 and 2011. hmmm right. IJ, RCT etc are just as good as Maiden. Yep you know what your talking about. Art hasnt improved, gameplay... you need to quit while your behind

What the hell are you babbling on about? Make sense if you're going to argue.

#2194 6 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

GOTG doesn't look to have RGB GI. I don't believe Stern has put a game out to date with 100% GI and insert lighting. Hopefully one day.
[quoted image]

Correct. I misread that earlier.

#2242 6 months ago
Quoted from enjoyvelvet:

Anyone confirmed whether Deadflip will be playing a Pro or Premium? I am really hoping it's a premium.

It's supposed to be both.....but they would never have just a Premium on the first stream.

#2682 6 months ago

Our local Pinball arcade just got BKSOR in. Well, I should say he picked it up at Stern today and drove it back to Indiana. He's going to the Classic this weekend, so it looks like Sunday night will be my first chance to play it. Can't wait to try it out!

#2683 6 months ago
Quoted from Pahuffman:

Can we talk for a moment about how awesome illuminated flippers are?
Real props to Ritchie and Stern for recognizing there's an issue being solved by lighting mods that can easily be implemented in the factory. Such a simple thing but will (hopefully) be included on all games moving forward. It makes a huge difference in the bottom 1/3 of the playfield.

Yes! And all RGB inserts for a Pro. Hopefully this also is standard going forward.

#2714 6 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

All rgb inserts? Not the case.. it has about half . I really wish both models had all rgb inserts as it really gives off a nice light show.

Well, 24 to the Premium's 26. That's far more than any Pro before and basically in line with the Premium.

#2715 6 months ago
Quoted from Tsskinne:

I got to play one last night at my local arcade, enjoyed it a lot more than I expected to. Only got 2 games in but put up 100 million on first one and then this gem on the second one.
[quoted image]

Hey! He said Sunday would be the first night we could all play it!

Damn insiders!


#2732 6 months ago
Quoted from Robertstone0407:

Code will be the make and break on this game. Got about 60 plays in. 10 beers. Left outlane has a ball save. Wish they'd stop being cheap and do a kickback

Kickbacks can be less than reliable.

#2768 6 months ago
Quoted from RGR:

Stick to virtual pinball then.

No thanks.

#2897 6 months ago
Quoted from javagrind888:

In my experience you can talk them below retail (I think it's $5999) or you can get free shipping. Not both.

I get both, every time. You need a new distro.

2 months later
#3734 3 months ago
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