Read through the FTC link you posted there - setting minimum sale pricing (not just MAP) is not necessarily illegal. The law has changed over the years and what used to be “price fixing” isn’t always considered illegal by the courts anymore.

“Reasonable price, territory, and customer restrictions on dealers are legal. Manufacturer-imposed requirements can benefit consumers by increasing competition among different brands (interbrand competition) even while reducing competition among dealers in the same brand (intrabrand competition)... an agreement to set minimum (or "floor") prices or to limit territories may encourage dealers to provide a level of service that the manufacturer wants to offer to consumers when they buy the product. These benefits must be weighed against any reduction in competition from the restrictions.”

Man sometimes, actually most of the time I wish this site was split into the 4 represented categories. Dealer. Operator. Collector and Player because it would save so much bullshit wasted time. As a player I don't give a crap regarding how anything is manufactured or sold, I don't give a crap regarding BOM or build quality all that shit, I don't give 2 shits about longevivty or side art etc. etc. and I don't mind taking a loss when I sell it, worth every penny. just give me the game so I can play till I'm bored and decide to move on. Imagine how many posts would become irrelevant in that case.

That would be really hard to do. Besides, as a collector I'm learning something by hearing dealers talk shop.

Oh Yeah me too, don't be a dealer.

So ive seen the pro, which is the way to go? Pro or premium?

Well u should play both then decide which one you like better, who cares what we think?

that's easy....premium has the upper-pf with the ball-lock. If you like it, and it fits your budget, go premium. If it don't impress you much, go pro. Only you can decide what works for you.

On the plus side, both have the "Hell Hand" mode....How frickin cool is that.

anybody have a close up video of the flaming castle
how did they do it?

I'd like to see this as well

I played so many games on this machine over the weekend. I kept coming back for more. Rules are definitely basic, but thats pretty normal. Give it some time. I will say, there is no question for me over pro vs premium. Premium all the way. Without the upper PF it just didnt feel right. The lock shot gives an extra element, and stacking the multiballs was a riot. I am really going to try and wait to buy a premium until next year at MGC (unless someone has a magic dealer that gives amazing deals).

As for the flaming castle, at some point they mentioned it was an LED array with like 60 LED's (I dont remember the exact number, but it was around that). I would assume its a single PCB with SMD LED's mounted on. Wouldnt be that hard. It looks super cool in person.

Imagine a Back to the Future release where they used clear little holes in the PF in 2 long strips and used the effect as the flaming skid marks of the Delorean, near a Delorean physical toy.

No intention to derail this thread, just saying they should think about how to utilise this great effect in future games too

So here is my take, I played a lot of Sword of Rage this weekend at MGC. And I felt that all the models shot very well. But the Pro model seemed to feel very empty. Sure it was fast, but I really didnt have nearly as much fun as I did with the Premium version of this game. If you can swing it guys try to go for the Premium or LE. That upper play field just adds a lot more fun, and shots and of course the upper ball locking mech.

Music and Art and Call outs and Animations are all Top Notch!

The Black knight is a cool freaking toy!

I hope everyone that gets this game enjoys the hell out of it!

No I do not... but I will say it is a lot smaller than what I thought. I was picturing the entire back to be lit up in flames...

The upper playfield on BKSoR makes a substantial impact to game play and scoring. It is easy to qualify and lock balls on the upper playfield with little risk. Hence, it’s easy to stage and start a 3 ball multiball at will. This is a big advantage over the pro model which doesn't. Designer discussed on podcast that scores from upper playfield will practically add to that from rest of game (bottom), so we can expect scoring between pro and prem/le to be some factor higher.

While I agree that the pro looks spectacular, a 3 ball multiball is not a feature I want to give up. It is a mode and a game play feature too. Plus, there is ability to start 3 ball mb on upper playfield and 3 ball mb on lower playfield for a 6 ball multiball. I would call that a special mode and another feature also. Upper playfield plays a big role in scoring strategy. Am thinking premium is the way to go.

We just need Tim to code some magic on the upper playfield and for Steve to add another mech ???

I don’t think they are adding any mechs ... code yes .

Are there any stand up targets in the upper playfield?

UPPER PLAYFIELD A MUST

Review:

Black Knight is a serious let down of a game. Let me start with the LE/Premium anyone who overpays for this game and buys one of these is making a serious mistake. The upper playfield is the worst upper playfield I've ever seen EVER! There is no point to it... they could have done a castle look, maybe added like the mechs from Scared Stiff (Frogs) when you hit something like a monster pops up, something anything to shoot at. They could have taken torches and a castle look up there with some monsters, but nope. You just get to shoot at a very odd and very weird looking ball lock mech. This blows the theme of the game totally, and otherwise is just boring and out of place.

Paying even 50 cents more for a premium/le is a serious mistake. Secondly, I don't see this game earning on location, it will be another TNA, a game that just sits there making no money. People can complain about games like Ghostbusters but that game makes seriously money, but the mass majority of pinball players play casual and gravitate to a theme they know like Ghostbusters, ACDC, or even Dialed In because the game looks super neat.

Black Knight doesn't measure up.

The game itself is NOT as fun as the versions that came before it... yes the sound is better, graphics, and all that but strip all that away and it boils down to is the game better and the answer is NO!

While at the show many of the premiums where getting fixed and fixed a lot ... one person told me hey these are prototypes and they might need to make adjustments to the upper playfield.

Another knock on the game is the music sounds cool for about 30 seconds, but it never stops same thing over and over again. Maybe some code updates will add more songs or something. Who knows.

Now moving onto the only version you should consider... the PRO!

This game is very much like Houdini which lots of people complained about... you miss a shot its coming right back at you!

There is only one rail and no real ramps, there just isn't a whole lot going on in this game, and honestly I think you would get bored of it fast.

With all that being said the toy in the middle is cool, the music is hard thumping, the video graphics are cool very similar to Iron Maiden (must be the same person). Its not far off from say Aerosmith, you just get bored of it after a while but what makes the game better is you actually might like Aerosmith.

This game rests solely on the game itself because there is no ACDC music to fall back on.

As a game and nothing more, and projecting the long term value of it, I'd give this game a 6.8. I do think you'll see this game in heavy rotation at tournaments, but much like TNA, you'll play it for a little while then want to move it out soon after.

This is not Stern's best game for sure! I know a lot of people may disagree with me, but I think I'm right in 6 months you'll see everyone who buys it trying to sell the game for something different, while people who say POTC still won't be selling their game.

There just isn't a lot to fall in love with here, this game is cool on some levels, but its just not a long term keeper, and will never be considered a CLASSIC which is what it was trying to replace I would guess.

There is only one take away, before you get all bent out of shape at my point on review. Every time a new game comes out, its super cool right because its just that brand new. I think one main thing all pinball games share is you can get bored of a game after a while right? That is why so many games are bought, sold and traded. You want something new, something fresh, and that game is fresh for how long before you go uhhh not playing that one anymore time to trade it out.

This Black Knight game will be one of the games you grow old of faster than almost any other game you've ever bought. This game will get so old so fast, but thinking way way ahead, meaning after Jurassic World, after Elvira 3, after Guns N Roses, after Cactus Canyon. Right... that's when everyone starts to re-focus on the NEW game and what is new after that.

The first game you'll look to dump is Black Knight, so if everyone is dumping their black knight what will the resale value be?

Buy it today for 5700 and a year from now they're selling in the 4's for SURE!

LE you'll never move that thing EVER ... you paid 9500 which honestly will be giving donating your money, you'll be dropping down into the 6500 range to get rid of it. That is my prediction, so for me I'd stick with the PRO, which is the only game you'll see in tournaments I would imagine.

Even though I'm confused by the theme of Ocktoberfest, that game was way way way more fun to play. If I was going to choose between Black Knight and Octoberfest it would be Octoberfest all day long.

Again just my opinion.

Boy I wish u had put this at the top of ur comment and it would have saved from reading the rest of it. even still that wasn't easy.

Dude, too many words again. I'm not going to read all that!

You gave The Shadow a 2.5 rating, Star Wars 4.6 and Iron Maiden LE a 4.8? Ok so now after your bad review of BK I think the Black Knight will be a game that I will love and have to buy.

I am with you. So many BS and blowhards.

That's ok and thx for your impressions!

After looking at your other ratings, Dr. Frightner, you certainly live up to your name.

Oh well that explains it. I don't like looking at peoples ratings but that really speaks volumes as to his ridiculous opinion. I'd bet my right nut DI and JJPOTC and WOZ all get 10's.

I don't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure your RN is safe on that bet.

Stern wants you to waste 9500 on this game (LE) then reading a full review, with a lot of thought behind buying today, selling a year from now, its worth reading. Let me tell something to all the haters out there, you don't have to agree with anyone's opinions, but getting those opinions in many cases makes you think about your own. My opinions change based on a rational argument, if after reading my comments, you might rethink the whole thing and do the smart thing and forget an LE or Premium and just go pro. That is the smart move or just skip the game all together and wait for the next Stern.

The Black Knight Swords of Rage when given time to marinate will ultimately be judged as the worst of the three Black Knight games, and for operators a big money loser. The game just doesn't have the eye appeal for an original theme, to attract casual players like say Dialed In.

I'm only putting a review out there that helps you think past the slick marketing video Stern produced... which btw I liked as well.

I like games for different reasons, I think Shadow is one of the worst movies ever made, with that being said I'm not a huge fan of the game. Again an opinion. Star Wars is a money grab game in my opinion, the biggest movie franchise in history deserved an EPIC game... Star Wars is NOT an epic game. Again my opinion. As for Iron Maiden I like that game, its fun, but I am not a fan of the band.

But get your facts straight... I rated the LE/PREMIUM LOW not the PRO. Why? Because its a RIP OFF, you charge almost double and you do almost nothing to warrant the cost. The pro is almost essentially the same game as the LE, but you charge basically double. That is a Stern money grab which is why I rated the LE LOW because the jacked up price is in my opinion a rip off.

The pro is a good game, and if you like Iron Maiden then you'll be much happier paying half the price.

Lordy. When exactly did u get the gift of seeing the future? Sorry man ur entitled to an opinion but be prepared for the reaction. and for u this is eye appeal? Well then not much left to say. Good day to u sir, I said good day

dialed_in_character (resized).jpg

After hearing the new Slap Save Podcast I start to lean to premium over pro again, but I think I have to wait and play it before I could finaly decide.

https://slapsave.podbean.com/e/mgc-black-knight-sor-willy-wonka-first-plays-impressions/

The sell a Pro model for much cheaper.

I generally agree with your review of BKSR. I think the game looks simple, and the upper PF looks clunky and not fun. That being said, I'm not sure how you came up with that logical review when your logic for your other reviews is completely out the window. Price and theme should not bring a great game down to a 4.8 or, worse, a 2.5. Those scores are reserved for games like Avengers and Thunderbirds. Pull yer head outta there, man.

Dialed In has that massive bright colorful screen with all those animations it draws you in. Most pincades are dark by nature, the Black Knight is a dark game its not going to have the curb appeal for an original theme as Dialed In c'mon that goes without saying. You'd have to be blind not to come to the same conclusion.

None of that matters, you place old Ghostbusters and Black Knight side by side for 6 months count the coins, that is the ONLY thing that matters.

You talk to anyone who runs an arcade who has say TNA ask them how much money it makes? Virtually nothing... the themes that work have serious curb appeal, or a movie theme people like. This is just common sense brother.

You like many others seem to think you're the industry, you're NOT the industry. The industry is people who own NO pinball games at home, which btw is over 99% of people in the ENTIRE WORLD! You're less than 1% of probably 1% of people who want pinballs in their home. The mass majority of money that goes into games come from people out at an establishment who own no pinballs, no arcades, no anything. They play casually and are drawn to a game the mass majority of the time based on the theme.

But aside from that Black Knight is NOT a great pinball game.

That is my opinion but the rest are facts.

I think this game will do,well on location, especially if the bk figure moves and talks during attract mode

I totally get your point, however I gave a fair review of Iron Maiden Pro... and with the LE I just think Stern is trying to do a money grab. If you want to charge double then bring something to the table.

What did they bring that was worthy of paying double that of the pro? I don't think we will ever get that answer.

The pro is a great pinball game, probably one of the best ever made, for myself I'm not a fan of the Iron Maiden music, but still the game is awesome.

The LE is a money grab.

Sounds like someone tries to downvote anything he doesnt own in an attempt to bump his own games up the top 100. Cool guy.

No you can't say this, he rates some games he owns not good and he has his own system. I respect this. I think his review was just his own opinion and it is good to hear reviews that are not in every way positive and point out negative things.
I looked for his other ratings cause when I read a review that is interesting I always check how someone rates other games I played. Everything is subjective in this hobby. I think there is someone for everygame. And my holy grail game could be a nightmare for someone else.

If you're talking about me that might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone say. So me giving a review is going to somehow push games I do own into the top 100... Please explain that one? Every single game I own is already in the top 100, and could very easily fall out of the top 100 for that matter. Beatles isn't very popular game here on Pinside didn't stop me from buying one. I understand why people don't like the game, but I like the theming Stern did to that game. I think its one of their best efforts yet, and even though the game is simple I think that adds to it... the casual player can have fun playing it.

I don't care if Beatles falls out of the top 1000 I like what I like and its not to influence a game into the top 100 that is just a stupid comment.

I like strawberries you like apples, so what does that have to do with anything. You give ONE review and I give ONE review. If you spend 5 hours explaining why beer tastes better than lemonade its not going to influence me to drink beer. I don't drink beer I think is taste terrible however you may have acquired a taste for it you like I don't. Doesn't mean we can't be friends. We just like some different things for different reasons.

Just so everyone understand I design attractions all over the WORLD... I'm an attention to detail person, I really focus on the attention paid to every single detail. I mostly buy games whereby I like the theme itself with exceptions. Wizard of Oz is the best themed game ever created, but not the most fun pinball... I still own the game. Batman 66 isn't as themed as WOZ but the game is way more fun... but still very well themed. I love that game the most. I don't care if Batman gets rated the worst game I like it so if I share my opinion its an opinion nothing more.

I played both the Pro and Premium at MGC and came to the conclusion that the only version I would consider owning is the Premium, and usually I'm a guy that sees the value in Pro model machines.

The Pro playfield just felt like it was lacking and almost seemed like a flat level playfield. The whole upper right corner where the upper playfield would be is just dead space for the most part. It just doesn't feel like a full game. I like the music and light show and the Black Knight flail is kind of neat but it just feels limited in shot selection. The Premium feels like a complete game at least. The upper playfield should be better but the lock shot is satisfying to hit and you can nudge it up to that flipper a little bit and get some loops going. It also adds an additional multiball with the ability to stack for the 6 ball mb which is a big deal above what the Pro offers.

Overall though I'm not a buyer of either. There's no way I'd spend $7300 for one of these when I can get a Willy Wonka Standard for a few hundred bucks more. It's just a far superior and better engineered game overall. I prefer the theme and music of BK but Lawlor and JJP take this round. I'd consider it possibly HUO in the low to mid $6's but just feel that the value isn't there at Stern's current price point.

Its almost as if this is a set up to prove my comment on seperate threads for Dealers/Operators. Curb Appeal? who gives a shit.

A I know is at MGC tge Pro is a snoozefest after playing the Pemium. The upper playfield ys fun, Steve said there will be some code updates regarding the loops. After playing the Premiumwe never went back to the pro.

Also playing with Steve was a blast.

20190412_174111 (resized).jpg

I still don't know if I should buy a BK or not. I have enough games to play and fun with all and already not enough time for them. If you would have asked me a few month ago I would have said that there are other themes that I am more interested in. But there is something with this game..... after the trailer and the reveal of the premium artwork, the BK toy as an enemy that fights back and than this cool music.... that is exactly what I like!!!
If the code developes in the right direction this could be the game I always wanted.

BK3 is gonna be a kickass in your face thrill ride, like most Ritchie games.

If you can’t handle it step aside.

$5300 or so remains a bargain on a Stern pro, and by far the best deal in pinball.

Your words, Iron Maiden pro is “probably one of the best ever made / awesome.” And you rated it 7.629.

And you rated 14 games a perfect 10 including all 4 JJP games.

Seems fair.

Review:
TNA.... Ghostbusters... Ghostbusters.... ACDC.... Dialed In.....

Houdini.....

Iron Maiden..... Aerosmith..... Aerosmith......

ACDC....
TNA.....

POTC.....

Jurassic World....Elvira 3.....Guns N Roses..... Cactus Canyon.....

Ocktoberfest....Octoberfest.....Octoberfest.....

drfrightner Is this a review of BKSOR or a review of all these other games you mention in your "review"? I'm confused.

Who are you and where did you come from?

drfrightner I think your biggest problem is you come across as shoving your opinion down our throats as though you think it’s the truth. Your posts are long and extremely opinionated. I just can’t read any of it anymore.

That's a pretty long reply. Defensive? I think enough people have chimed in on how people like you blow the ratings curve out the window. Personal taste doesnt account for your scores. 2's, 3's and 4's for respectable games? Those scores are reserved for the trash titles. Perfect 10's across the board for jjp? Lol. That's ridiculous. I've never given ANY game a perfect 10. Not even my FAVORITE games. Woz? Dialed in? Hobbit? Potc? These are NOT perfect 10 games. Anything else you say from this point on should be considered white noise.

Just because you don't like Maiden and/or think the LE costs too much doesn't equate to a 4.5 rating (or whatever lowball you gave it). Too bad it wasn't Star Wars--there would have been little dispute that it was a top five pin. You were finally almost on to something here but missed the real "this doesn't pencil out" Maiden version--the Premium. No way the few added features are worth the extra cash........except for the playability factor. The Premiums/LEs are so much more fun to play than the Pro (which as you correctly note is the best Pro Stern has built in a long time). Is it worth it--no. Would I buy a Pro--not if I could afford the extortion, to play the game as it was designed requires one to bend over and pony up. On the other hand, the jump from the Premium to the LE almost makes sense when you add-in all the additional features.