Less wires, copper, less complexity means no more $8k pins correct?
(Topic ID: 114530)
Let's hope it is
"Software Prioritization Is Kinda Essential"
vs
"Stupid Pinside Idiots Know Everything"
Carthage, MO
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:The other thing I noticed RE: wireforms is that I don't think the ball will stop at the end to 'drop' into the inlane. Due to the two-wire track, it's seemingly more a free-flow setup.
Capture.JPG 60 KB
I was of the same opinion. I think thats why they have the larger stack of rubber bands on the outline returns. So the ball can roll up and over and hit those and drop down. If that is the case its a really interesting idea.
This system definitely puts Stern way ahead of the competition. Being able to match anything feature wise with a simple, inexpensive, reliable system that is easy to manufacture and does not involve miles of wire any more is a huge accomplishment. I love seeing just that tiny little board in the backbox with no shielding and hardly any wiring in the cabinet. All based on proven automotive technology. That cuts costs, of manufacturing and labor by tons while making it more reliable and easier to fix. Designing their own boards from the ground up is also the way to go. Stern can lock in the design and build it as long as they want without dealing with vendor-owned designs for key components. The modular design allows them to drop in multiple LCDs and high tech toys at will. Stern has positioned themselves to keep up on a technology standpoint with any of their new competition, but at a very low price point. So basically they can build the same game at a much lower cost.
In contrast JJP is built around an off the shelf PC in a huge heat producing metal box with tons of flaky connectors, cables and wiring buried where you can't get to it in the bottom of the cabinet. I just had to recently troubleshoot a bad connector in WoZ that would not allow it to even boot on Thanksgiving. I didn't get it fixed for a few head scratching days, but was fortunate to have great tech support from JJP. To me the JJP system is a freakin nightmare and a huge waste of money because of poor design. Its great if it works, but... It has to be expensive to build too for no real added value.
Quoted from ChrisS:I was of the same opinion. I think thats why they have the larger stack of rubber bands on the outline returns. So the ball can roll up and over and hit those and drop down. If that is the case its a really interesting idea.
Three rubber bands behind flippers just represent the three ropes in the wrestling ring
Quoted from John_I:This system definitely puts Stern way ahead of the competition. Being able to match anything feature wise with a simple, inexpensive, reliable system that is easy to manufacture and does not involve miles of wire any more is a huge accomplishment. I love seeing just that tiny little board in the backbox with no shielding and hardly any wiring in the cabinet. All based on proven automotive technology. That cuts costs, of manufacturing and labor by tons while making it more reliable and easier to fix. Designing their own boards from the ground up is also the way to go. Stern can lock in the design and build it as long as they want without dealing with vendor-owned designs for key components. The modular design allows them to drop in multiple LCDs and high tech toys at will. Stern has positioned themselves to keep up on a technology standpoint with any of their new competition, but at a very low price point. So basically they can build the same game at a much lower cost.
In contrast JJP is built around an off the shelf PC in a huge heat producing metal box with tons of flaky connectors, cables and wiring buried where you can't get to it in the bottom of the cabinet. I just had to recently troubleshoot a bad connector in WoZ that would not allow it to even boot on Thanksgiving. I didn't get it fixed for a few head scratching days, but was fortunate to have great tech support from JJP. To me the JJP system is a freakin nightmare and a huge waste of money because of poor design. Its great if it works, but... It has to be expensive to build too for no real added value.
where do you get the more reliable from its not even out yet to have any clue.
Quoted from calvin12:where do you get the more reliable from its not even out yet to have any clue.
The new marketing guy told him obviously 
Quoted from calvin12:where do you get the more reliable from its not even out yet to have any clue.
Less components, connectors and heat = more reliable. I do this type of assessment for a living by the way. But you are right, in the end you always have to wait and see.
Quoted from sd_tom:Bet pinball browser type editing has been worked out of the system.
life-uh-finds-a-way.gifGod, is it just me, or does anyone else really hate these animated gifs where it's got the text on the bottom like a silent movie, but THE LOOP DOESN'T ACTUALLY SHOW WHAT'S TYPED DOWN THERE? GOD! /throwingstuff
For real..was it that hard to do the extra 1 second where he's saying "Life uh,"!?
I wonder how much one of those small surface mount circuit board assemblies will cost? Stern parts ain't cheap.
Quoted from RobT:It's PC based, so this means it will have fans installed?
That can't be a good thing.
Edit: what Ibarakuru said.
CPU/Case/PS fans can be very quiet if you use a quality fan. I have 9 running in my home computer and a couple in my MAME cabinet and it is whisper quiet.
Quoted from John_I:Less components, connectors and heat = more reliable. I do this type of assessment for a living by the way. But you are right, in the end you always have to wait and see.
Considering you are calling the connectors on a billion desktops across the planet "flaky" I will take that entire statement with a grain of salt. Considering you are saying the platform used by over a billion machines across the planet is unreliable I'll take your entire statement with a grain of salt. Considering the hottest we could ever get the inside of the "heat chassis" was to 80 degrees F with the game running consistently for 48 straight hours with no supplemental cooling I'll take your statement with a grain of salt.
I really love it when unvarnished opinions masquerade as fact.
P.S. Talk to me in 10 years when they no longer make that board set and it can't be repaired as per their new model of just swap it. I'll be smiling happily with a running game and a motherboard I can get brand new 
Toronto, ON
Quoted from John_I:This system definitely puts Stern way ahead of the competition. Being able to match anything feature wise with a simple, inexpensive, reliable system that is easy to manufacture and does not involve miles of wire any more is a huge accomplishment. I love seeing just that tiny little board in the backbox with no shielding and hardly any wiring in the cabinet. All based on proven automotive technology. That cuts costs, of manufacturing and labor by tons while making it more reliable and easier to fix. Designing their own boards from the ground up is also the way to go. Stern can lock in the design and build it as long as they want without dealing with vendor-owned designs for key components. The modular design allows them to drop in multiple LCDs and high tech toys at will. Stern has positioned themselves to keep up on a technology standpoint with any of their new competition, but at a very low price point. So basically they can build the same game at a much lower cost.
In contrast JJP is built around an off the shelf PC in a huge heat producing metal box with tons of flaky connectors, cables and wiring buried where you can't get to it in the bottom of the cabinet. I just had to recently troubleshoot a bad connector in WoZ that would not allow it to even boot on Thanksgiving. I didn't get it fixed for a few head scratching days, but was fortunate to have great tech support from JJP. To me the JJP system is a freakin nightmare and a huge waste of money because of poor design. Its great if it works, but... It has to be expensive to build too for no real added value.
Quoted from calvin12:where do you get the more reliable from its not even out yet to have any clue.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Quoted from Pinchroma:Considering you are calling the connectors on a billion desktops across the planet "flaky" I will take that entire statement with a grain of salt. Considering you are saying the platform used by over a billion machines across the planet is unreliable I'll take your entire statement with a grain of salt. Considering the hottest we could ever get the inside of the "heat chassis" was to 80 degrees F with the game running consistently for 48 straight hours with no supplemental cooling I'll take your statement with a grain of salt.
I really love it when unvarnished opinions masquerade as fact.
P.S. Talk to me in 10 years when they no longer make that board set and it can't be repaired as per their new model of just swap it. I'll be smiling happily with a running game and a motherboard I can get brand new
Pin2K shows that you're both wrong - NONE of the current shite will be available in 10 years.
Quoted from ignusfast:Pin2K shows that you're both wrong - NONE of the current shite will be available in 10 years.
WoZ doesn't REQUIRE certain hardware to run. In 5 years a similar footprint mini/micro atx CPU board could be swapped into woz. throw a 16 core CPU in there and maybe you won't get video slowdown anymore... LOL
an SOC all in one design will be more reliable the vast majority of the time. Who knows what long term will mean, but it's a very very solid base using proven tech that puts it at a good price point. For ops, it could become cost effective to just have spare main boards for field fast replacement, easy interconnect cabling, fewer components.. it's really easy to see how it's a very well thought out design.
Quoted from dgoett:WoZ doesn't REQUIRE certain hardware to run. In 5 years a similar footprint mini/micro atx CPU board could be swapped into woz. throw a 16 core CPU in there and maybe you won't get video slowdown anymore... LOL
As long as the OS isn't too tied to the existing hardware, with custom drivers and/or protection. Not saying ANY of that is the case, but it's a common occurrence with specialized hardware like this.
Quoted from Flack:LOTR VE would be awesome on the SPIKE systems, especially with the upgraded sound
If they have the original sound files still.
Now for LOTR it may be like the ACDC game on the new hardware system it will be some kind of emulator system.
MMR has an emulator system with the sound linked to better original sound files then the DCS system.
YES!!!! how did everyone else miss this. Three lugs on the flipper!!!! Dual wound flippers, means no more Stern Flipper buzz!!!!!!!!
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:Is the code actually played directly off the SD card in real time? If so are we going to require certain speeds of SD cards, or is the read speed of the average modern SD cards so high it's a non-issue?
the only stuff that may need good speed may be video. Now playing alot of sounds at the same time may slow down with a slow card.
Game code should load into ram and not need to be loaded live. How big can that be 4 meg ram maybe 8 meg of just game code is very little ram.
Quoted from jwilson:It can't be just a PC supply. You need at least 25V - more likely 50V - for the coils and flippers.
Possibly two of them. Spooky Pinball uses a switching power supply with 5V and 12V to power the motherboard, lights, switches and has a second 48VDC switcher for the coils. Not sure if their sound amp is powered by 12V DC or 110VAC.
Moving from the large heavy (and probably expensive) transformer, plus their own power supplies on the driver boards, to two off the shelf switching power supplies has to be a huge cost savings for the new system. Plus it will drop 40 pounds off the total weight of the game.
Quoted from IBARAKURO:I hate the pc ventilators...
after a while it's always noise
Very bad choise mr stern
I can't stand the fan sound in WOZ during attract mode. The fan winds up and down as the lamps pan across the pf.
Quoted from ignusfast:Pin2K shows that you're both wrong - NONE of the current shite will be available in 10 years.
You know pin2k is proprietary right? You obviously didn't otherwise you wouldn't have responded like this
Quoted from ignusfast:As long as the OS isn't too tied to the existing hardware, with custom drivers and/or protection. Not saying ANY of that is the case, but it's a common occurrence with specialized hardware like this.
It is not tied to the hardware or os. The OS is built along with the code with abi compatibility for those that know what that is.
Quoted from kbliznick:I can't stand the fan sound in WOZ during attract mode. The fan winds up and down as the lamps pan across the pf.
The fans are not in any way tied to the function of the game and run at a steady pace at all times.
Quoted from Pinchroma:You know pin2k is proprietary right? You obviously didn't otherwise you wouldn't have responded like this
Quoted from Pinchroma:It is not tied to the hardware or os. The OS is built along with the code with abi compatibility for those that know what that is.
Some things are intentionally proprietary (prism card), and some things are NOT intentionally proprietary (the OS/motherboard).
My point is that hardware and software both evolve rapidly enough that in ten years, there may not BE anything compatible with that "generic" system. Believe me, I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong or even obfuscating intent. I'm just saying that even the best of intentions can have side effects.
Personally, I LOVE seeing off-the-shelf hardware driving a system like this - it does make it significantly easier to support. But unless the source code is released to enable recompilation, eventually it's going to hit a wall.
Quoted from kbliznick:I can't stand the fan sound in WOZ during attract mode. The fan winds up and down as the lamps pan across the pf.
Not to mention the buzzing sound constantly coming from the speakers that is crosstalk from the poorly designed LED boards.
Quoted from Pinchroma:Considering you are calling the connectors on a billion desktops across the planet "flaky" I will take that entire statement with a grain of salt.
The more connectors the less reliable. Period. Pinball machines have lots of rattling from shakers and subwoofers not to mention all the solenoids. And yes, I had to re-seat a cable on WoZ to fix a boot problem. Thanks for the tech help though it was top notch.
Quoted from Pinchroma:Considering you are saying the platform used by over a billion machines across the planet is unreliable I'll take your entire statement with a grain of salt.
Yeah because PCs never die. They also change models every year so they will never be quite the same down the road and will completely change form factor within 5-10 years. Desktops are going away fast at this point.
Quoted from ignusfast:Considering the hottest we could ever get the inside of the "heat chassis" was to 80 degrees F with the game running consistently for 48 straight hours with no supplemental cooling I'll take your statement with a grain of salt.
You got me there. Good point. Still the noise of the fans and the whole enclosure and EMI seal and all that crap is not needed to make a pinball machine. Stern is a cleaner, leaner and more elegant design. That is not saying much though.
Quoted from Pinchroma:I really love it when unvarnished opinions masquerade as fact.
I get payed pretty well to give opinions just like this on a daily basis. Stern has been working on this system for years and has in no way rushed it to market. It will surely have a few hiccups, but I stand by my statements (edit: predictions) that it will be very reliable and cost effective.
Quoted from John_I:Not to mention the buzzing sound constantly coming from the speakers that is crosstalk from the poorly designed LED boards.
The more connectors the less reliable. Period. Pinball machines have lots of rattling from shakers and subwoofers not to mention all the solenoids. And yes, I had to re-seat a cable on WoZ to fix a boot problem. Thanks for the tech help though it was top notch.
Yeah because PCs never die. They also change models every year so they will never be quite the same down the road and will completely change form factor within 5-10 years. Desktops are going away fast at this point.
You got me there. Good point. Still the noise of the fans and the whole enclosure and EMI seal and all that crap is not needed to make a pinball machine. Stern is a cleaner, leaner and more elegant design. That is not saying much though.
I get payed pretty well to give opinions just like this on a daily basis. Stern has been working on this system for years and has in no way rushed it to market. It will surely have a few hiccups, but I stand by my statements (edit: predictions) that it will be very reliable and cost effective.
Wow, that's a strange quote - I did not say that!
Quoted from iwantansi:Where do we put the USB stick!?!
Looks like bottom center of the board. Two USB ports.
LTG : )™
Quoted from John_I:Yeah because PCs never die. They also change models every year so they will never be quite the same down the road and will completely change form factor within 5-10 years. Desktops are going away fast at this point.
maybe but servers and in bedded systems will not go away that fast.
Quoted from John_I:Less components, connectors and heat = more reliable. I do this type of assessment for a living by the way. But you are right, in the end you always have to wait and see.
Less wire yes, but less connectors, not really, all the sub boards need to be interconnected, and every single switch still needs a connection just like normal. and any lamps that are not on the main boards will have connectors. Should be less heat, which is good.
Quoted from kbliznick:YES!!!! how did everyone else miss this. Three lugs on the flipper!!!! Dual wound flippers, means no more Stern Flipper buzz!!!!!!!!
SWEEETNESS!!
Glad that Stern is using an embedded system instead of this current craze of shoving a PC inside a pin.
You can get a lot of speed out of an SD card. AMH stores everything on one and usually has 2-3 streams going at once, 5 maximum. And that's in the slower 1 bit (SPI) mode.
Quoted from benheck:Glad that Stern is using an embedded system instead of this current craze of shoving a PC inside a pin.
You can get a lot of speed out of an SD card. AMH stores everything on one and usually has 2-3 streams going at once, 5 maximum. And that's in the slower 1 bit (SPI) mode.
also SD cards are cheap easy to recover have the room for fail back in case of auto update fail / have room for live internet downing of updates. Also with them you have a lot of room for art / sound.
now days you can setup servers boot from the them as well.
Quoted from desertT1:I was thinking that a ramp with no end, or one that deflected the ball down (but not slowing it much) would make for a very quick inlane return. Almost like what you get in High Speed or Monopoly with the habitrails that return in front of the sling with nothing slowing the ball down. Something for the fast action junkies.
Saw a quick gameplay video. The ball seems to stop and drop as per a standard wireform habitrail. See ~ 0:40 here. I think it's maybe a bit faster than a normal habitrail, but not what I had pictured.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/2s2AjJ4mZEM?autoplay=1&rel=0
Quoted from dantebean:If the ball builds up enough speed it will hit the end of the wireform. The 2 wires look more spread apart than other rails so the speed may be slown down a bit.
You are the winner
Back to the SPIKE talk, no more OT 
Paris
Quoted from Pinchroma:The fans are not in any way tied to the function of the game and run at a steady pace at all times.
OK, if it's not the fan then it's this.
Quoted from John_I:Not to mention the buzzing sound constantly coming from the speakers that is crosstalk from the poorly designed LED boards.
All I know is the buzz drives me nuts when I am working on someones games and a WOZ is on in the same room.
Quoted from kbliznick:OK, if it's not the fan then it's this.
All I know is the buzz drives me nuts when I am working on someones games and a WOZ is on in the same room.
No it's not that either.
Quoted from Pinchroma:No it's not that either.
So, we know what it's not. What is it?
Yeah.. cuz no one ever made a after market MPU for a pinball machine....EVER.
I can currently buy new boards for 30 year old games if needed and WAY cheaper than a PC based board that will need a CPU and memory...and a shitload of software porting
And..it's not MSI
Quoted from Pinchroma:P.S. Talk to me in 10 years when they no longer make that board set and it can't be repaired as per their new model of just swap it. I'll be smiling happily with a running game and a motherboard I can get brand new
Quoted from Monster_Bash:Yeah.. cuz no one ever made a after market MPU for a pinball machine....EVER.
I can currently buy new boards for 30 year old games if needed and WAY cheaper than a PC based board that will need a CPU and memory...and a shitload of software porting
And..it's not MSI
So a rotten dog board at $300+ dollars is cheaper than 140 for mem cpu and mobo? Got it. Whew. Glad I passed 3rd grade math.
Glad to know also if I have a memory problem it will cost me 10 bucks for a new stick or $300 for yet another new board. Glad to know if I have an issue with the processor it will cost me $50 dollars for a new one except, yup you guessed it $300 for a new board. No thanks.
I swear some people (even those that claim to get paid well to do it) don't undetstand a thing about enterprise computing and infrastructure. And a hobbiest who builds their own "puter" are the worst.
P.S. The msi boards are rock solid and haven't had to replace one yet for failure.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:Did anyone see a replay knocker? Or did they stay with the annoying chirp.
likely still an optional add on
If Sterns claim is true that they have been testing some of Spikes components in some machines for some time then that may explain the odd GI lamp board in Mustang that is not in the manual and which has failed twice so far at Modern.
Yes modular design with less components is the logical way to go however if the execution of the components or the parts used in the components is sub-par then its all a moot point.
I still do not like the LED board system starting with my first encounter with them in a ZIZZLE machine where once the LED on a board failed you could not simply replace the bad LED.
More recently this scenario took place with WOZ and its LED /board issues. Replace an entire board for the loss of a single sms mount LED???????
The one failed LED daisy chained takes out numerous LEDs this is plain dumb. LEDs will fail no matter what system they are in. Why use this system that exaggerates a problem that will happen?
Unless the new Spike design takes all of this into consideration and has a bypass of back up for this occurrence.
Yes most modern Pinball machine systems do have feature disable capability for when an assembly fails but nothing for a daisy chained system failure.
I have mentioned the issue with this sort of plan for LEDs but if this is now the case with other aspects of the game what will be the results?
These systems cannot be compared to home computers as the environment is completely different.
Compared to car systems not realistic either as car systems have been designed with almost unlimited resources and their failure could result in death or injury to their users.
What works on paper is not what works in the real world at least not until all possible failures and causes have been addressed by use in the real world.
WOZ was a good example and it will still take a few years for JJP to bulletproof their system.
An entire Spike system should have been integrated in test machines that have been on location for at least a year or two for proper evaluation of the system. Maybe it was tested secretly who knows but I would doubt it.
Unless the led boards are the price of a single LED this system can get real expensive for owners and operators alike. Most LED boards would have to be the same part and readily available or stockpiled for this to work with the least amount of issues for users.
At Modern I have heard more than my share of customer complaints about AC/DC being down for more than two months and its all due to one board being out and it is on back order from STERN think about that situation being repeated over and over with a Spike system with this sort of design.
There must be backup systems in place in Spike for a machine to work at least 90% with one failed board by enabling circuits to be rerouted with a jumper or through coin door adjustments etc.
A machine can't be down waiting for a board because (for example) an LED or whatever failed.
Just my thoughts and Im really happy that Stern is trying to do something with a product that is still not mainstream….yet
Quoted from Pinchroma:No it's not that either.
Well, then enlighten us. I've heard the same buzzing from the speakers as kbliznick and John_I. Don't tell me it doesn't exist.
Lets say we have a hard drive failure. The new Stern cost ya $5..the Woz cost ya $50. See I can pick the extreme end of the parts numbers too.
Shall I find the cheapest pinball MPU and the most expensive CPU\MB\Memory combo? I could..but I'm to lazy. There's are many sub $200 MPU replacement boards available.
It ten years (your timeline) are going to be able to get a new (again..you said brand new) compatible process for the current WoZ board? Probably not..so you're buying the board and at least the memory.
As a consumer in ten years (using your timeline again) how do I know what compatible board\CPU combo to buy when my Woz board blows up (you specifically said 'brand new motherboard') ? Will SATA controllers go away like IDE..what about a storage then? Will USB still be available on my 'new' board in ten years..or will it take the path of RS232 and PS2? And the most important...how to I port the software over to my new board? Does the WoZ OS magically have support board components that aren't released yet?
Sounds like a lot of work in ten years VS spending an hour and replacing a aftermarket MPU
I completely see what you mean about 'some people' having absolutely no clue about ISV solutions, infrastructure and road mapping.
Let me know when ya get past that 4th grade math..I'll give ya time to catch up
BTW If anyone wants to pay the Woz at the Strong Museum of Play..don't bother. While 30+ 30-35 year old arcade games and 12 or so pinball machines were all chugging along...this was the only machine that was down on Sunday
Quoted from Pinchroma:So a rotten dog board at $300+ dollars is cheaper than 140 for mem cpu and mobo? Got it. Whew. Glad I passed 3rd grade math.
Glad to know also if I have a memory problem it will cost me 10 bucks for a new stick or $300 for yet another new board. Glad to know if I have an issue with the processor it will cost me $50 dollars for a new one except, yup you guessed it $300 for a new board. No thanks.
I swear some people (even those that claim to get paid well to do it) don't undetstand a thing about enterprise computing and infrastructure. And a hobbiest who builds their own "puter" are the worst.
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