Quoted from rubberducks:To my untrained eye, the joint looks suspect and the ply very cheap
They are using a 7 ply cabinet grade material. I cannot say more on the product. It looks like they are wrapping the decals and then assembling the corners. This does leave less area to adhere glue to so I'm a bit skeptical about that. I am not knowledgeable about there internal bracing so I will not add opinion.
Quoted from metallik:I believe Spooky uses that screw system just mentioned.. I recall seeing the angled screwholes in the cab. My WOZECLE also uses that screw method.
Indeed, WOZ does have those - mine does. However, the cabinet corner joints are still basic locking / aligning (rather than mitred) right angled ones, rather than the more basic one the Spooky cab appears to have.
Quoted from Pimp77:I simply do not believe this. Show me the hundreds or LOTR, TSPP, RBION, AC/DC, IM, etc, etc cabinets splitting. You can't. They aren't doing this until just now. Sure maybe there is one or two from DROPPING THE GAME ON THAT CORNER, but this recent problem is not Pinball as usual.
The only game I ever dealt with with a split cabinet was a Guns 'n Roses ...but my particular game game had definitely lived a life! It was beat in many respects. I "clamped" it with ratchet straps and used Gorilla Glue and it was good to go after that! That cabinet was painted rather than decalled, so that wasn't an issue.
Quoted from Buzz:At the very least this is fixable unlike playfields but should not have to.
You say that, but it's not just about the joinery.
The quality of the ply was bad (compared to WMS and Gottlieb) on a lot of old DE cabinets (coincidence that it was another Stern company?), and many are delaminating, and have been for many years. I suspect the longevity of the new ply is considerably worse. If the whole cab is flexing and moving because the joints are bad, that won't help matters.
In a busy commercial setting, I don't think the new cabs will last long at all ... and they'll begin to show deterioration at home quite quickly too, I'd bet.
True I just wanted to feel less stupid about giving Stern my money. Just because I can fix a corner doesn't mean there may be other issues to show up later.
Quoted from Pimp77:I simply do not believe this. Show me the hundreds or LOTR, TSPP, RBION, AC/DC, IM, etc, etc cabinets splitting. You can't. They aren't doing this until just now. Sure maybe there is one or two from DROPPING THE GAME ON THAT CORNER, but this recent problem is not Pinball as usual.
Show me HUNDREDS (that would be more than 200) of KISS, GOT, Aerosmith that have split cabinets. You can't.
I would not be lying if I said that in my life of routing pins that I have probably glued 1000 corners.
Pinball cabs are the worst structural design for flex (think a shoebox with the lid off). They are made of the lightest weight SPF plywood to make them easy to route them in locations with stairs. They are garbage design that only needed to last the 3 years that the game was designed for.
You guys would have gone ass crazy back in the day when we would unbox some games and the bottoms were made of crappy Z-brick or wainscotting fiberboard. Stern and Williams would allow CCC to put any piece of crap panel on a game if it kept the lines running.
Yes, both of these are factory:
Quoted from Skypilot:Both joints are designed to form an interlock which alows for natural corner alignment. The glue is the key
This new edge relys on a simple half lap.
I would think the 2nd is more likely to rely entirely on one or two thin laminations in each direction. The classic joint would potentially have more than one lamination in the thinnest part (albeit the same thin part)
I think the classic method probably by design holds up to the stresses of shacking and bumping the machine a bit better than the more squared method. Really the internal brackets are the best solution, as it connects both planes at a larger point, and transfers more of the stress of shifting the machine to the legs as the plates are unified by the bolts.
That's all my best 'guess', but maybe some has tested.
What's a surprise here, is I've only read one instance of anyone reporting this to the manufacturer and the response was thanks let us look into it. Call it in and see what they do. Maybe they might do better than expected, taking lessons from the ghosting issues. If not, then there's plenty to moan about on all sides and fuel to keep the pitchforks glowing all the way to Chicago.
Quoted from o-din:Hey vid, did you ever have to re glue the corners on one of these cabinets?
http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1918&picno=46538
No, we would have to MIG weld them, lol.
Quoted from Vinosky:Stern better get their head out of their ass.
Well, yes, but the customers that KEEP supporting these problems by buying the games need to wake up too. As long as we keep buying, Stern won't care; it's just that simple.
Quoted from vid1900:Show me HUNDREDS (that would be more than 200) of KISS, GOT, Aerosmith that have split cabinets. You can't.
Give it 25 years and I bet I can. Hell, I can point out a dozen GB pins right now after only a few months! There is no way you can convince me it's normal for new games to be doing this...no matter how well seasoned you are (and I usually unquestionably respect your knowledge). I've been buying and selling games for 16 years. Have dealt with hundreds of games and have known tons of long-term people in the industry. There is zero incidents of cabinets failing that I know of except if one got wet sometime in its life or it was dropped. It's just not supposed to happen to a few month old game that is babied in someone's home.
Quoted from vid1900:Show me HUNDREDS (that would be more than 200) of KISS, GOT, Aerosmith that have split cabinets. You can't.
No one has to show 200. They only need to show 1. Because 1 is all it takes if that 1 is the game you own. The difference between back then and now is people are spending a small fortune on a game to place in there home as a show piece. I've glued about 2 dozen older game corners back together so know you are correct that it's nothing new. I'm guessing at least half of the pinball community was never around when B/W games were still new so this is probably a shock to many.
Quoted from Pimp77:Give it 25 years and I bet I can. Hell, I can point out a dozen GB pins right now after only a few months! There is no way you can convince me it's normal for new games to be doing this...no matter how well seasoned you are (and I usually unquestionably respect your knowledge). I've been buying and selling games for 16 years. Have dealt with hundreds of games and have known tons of long-term people in the industry. There is zero incidents of cabinets failing that I know of except if one got wet sometime in its life or it was dropped. It's just not supposed to happen to a few month old game that is babied in someone's home.
And to clarify: I'm talking mainly 90s DMD and later games. You know, after the point when Pinball got fun.
Quoted from daddyxxx:barely move it and it split on the seam...I moved a lot of pins in my lifetime and never had any kind of i
How you moving it? Pin Skates or Dolly?
Quoted from vid1900:Or how about when Williams would ship games that were 1/2 hardboard and half fiberboard?
That would get your guys panties in a bunch, yes?
Again, from the factory:
You're talking about games from the ages of the dinosaurs!!! What were these, $300 NIB?
the difference is, ops didnt' care about cosmetics. They cared about earnings. They wanted the game to pay for itself. As long as they did that, they didn't care if it burst into flames as soon as they were done with it.
Home market is a very different thing. If you are going to cater to the home market, you have to step up the game to appeal to the anals.
as for being around when Williams was still around 50% is pretty generous. My guess would be 85% of pinside was not around. even as late as 2003.
Operators only care about earnings if it was made of dog shit they would not care as long as the quarter drop worked. Different time and different customers manufactures have for the most part priced out op's so the home consumer is the key target to keep happy in pinball. Any smart op does ticket redemption basically slot machines for kids or operates a $20 gum ball sticker machine. Vid you are fu@king awesome and love the history and help you provide. If companies can't make a product that can't last a month in a home then good luck with whatever op that is willing to pay these prices and have it fall apart on location and hurt someone. In today's sue crazy world your done.
I just replaced a back panel (particle board) on a 1970s GTB EM for my GF, with a piece 1" thick miter jointed plywood, and the rest of the cabinet (plywood) had no splits. Pretty solid double miter interlocking corners considering the game was only supported in the front and bottom, and the game could still be setup. This was with no back support on all legs with just with rear internal support brace mounts attached to the sides of the cabinet. Now, I would not recommend this for a long time, because eventually there would be failure, as the rear cabinet mounts (where the leg bolts attach) would break as they are attached by a combination of glue, screws, and staples.
There have been changes in the methods of cabinet construction, as I compared this to all types of games from 1940s and up.
I did compare this to my MET, and they are not using the same mitering, they are using what was mentioned by the carpenter as a single miter which is easier to cut. It does not look like a dovetail joint. Hide glue has been the standard for many years in pinball cabinets, although I like others have repaired cabinets with higher quality wood glues since the 1990s. It fixes most if not all problems.
This is just another part of being a part of pinball, ie learning to repair and maintenance games.
However, I have never seen this occur after one month.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:I just replaced a back panel (particle board) on a 1970s GTB EM for my GF, with a piece 1" miter jointed plywood, and the rest of the cabinet (plywood) had no splits. Pretty solid double miter interlocking considering the game was only supported in the front and bottom.
There have been changes in the methods of cabinet construction, as I compared this to all types of games from 1940s and up.
I was waiting to hear from blackknight. Is this type of thing normal blackknight??? Home use after a month or two? No way, right?
Quoted from vid1900:Or how about when Williams would ship games that were 1/2 hardboard and half fiberboard?
That would get your guys panties in a bunch, yes?
Again, from the factory:
That was 30-40 years ago, cabinets have been being made better for years. Many mid 90's Williams cabinets are holding up better then the modern Stern cabinets being posted in this thread...
If Stern wants to charge high prices fine but then quality should also be high, quality control should be high, etc.
Quoted from Pimp77:I was waiting to hear from blackknight. Is this type of thing normal blackknight??? Home use after a month or two? No way, right?
Just to further explain my observations.
I have seen this occur many times on titles over the course of a title's normal route life, namely 3-5 years.
My IJ: TBA I bought back in 1998 had the right front edge starting to separate which I fixed with industrial wood glue and clamps.
It happens.
I have never seen this occur after single month period, UNLESS...
1 ) A game was improperly moved after setup (including "dragging" and "pushing" without a dolly or equivalent)
2) During setup (including the old operator method of putting the front legs on and using your knees to brace while the back legs are installed, which puts a lot of extra pressure on the front of the cabinet as it is "pushed" forward)
3 ) Damaged in transit for delivery (via dropping or slid violently, even if on a pallet and move without equipment)
4 ) Legs are not properly tightened or the bolts are stripped out from the plates (this results is rotational torque on the joints and seam edges)
5 ) There is a lot of nudging on a title on a route or home (usually in combination with loose leg bolts)
6 ) Factory existing damage (this is a QA/QC problem, either on materials or construction)
All these can cause cabinets to crack at the corner edge seams, quite readily, if overlooked.
The most common are 1, 2, and 4.
Wood pinball cabinets are hardly invincible with the low grade multiple layer plywood, and split readily under moderate pressure, either through the layers, joints, or seams.
Remember most pinball cabinets have a least 1-2 components of the "box" that are particle board, and that is not not going to provide a lot of additional strength, and can fall apart fairly easily even with strong glue. Either the bottom, back, or both.
I don't know what glue being used now with Stern, games from the 90s and earlier are hide glue, with a few exceptions.
Keeping mind what I also said before that modern games are still throwback from earlier times, and the industry is still building games with the concept of operators, but selling them to a different market. It is not a recognized, "consumer electronics device" yet.
The current modern Stern corner joints ARE cut differently and simplified.
Like I mentioned before, my recommendation was put the game up on a dolley perpendicular (or two sawhorses), not longitudinal (takes all weight off corners completely), buy the upgraded leg bolt plates and install them, fill the corner joints recesses with industry wood glue (tons of great options, but use those for WOOD, not "general purpose"), and use corner clamps. Day to dry each corner. If an owner is really concerned buy a few extra heavy duty flanged corner braces (not those cheap angles), one each near the top of the corners of the cabinet. Predrill all holes, under screw width using a drill depth limiter or piece of tape. Strength from multiple directions.
The cabinet will NEVER come apart unless the game is dropped out a window.
An owner does not need to do an entire vertical seam length as this is WAY overkill, and the benefits become diminishing over how much strength can be increased due to the basic wood materials used in the cabinet.
I do not recommend installing "after the fact" pocket screws because of the materials involved, if an owner makes an angle directional mistake, you will end up weakening the cabinet and can even split the seam, if an owner has never done this before.
This method best done before a game is built.
If the recommend is followed above, splitting is also arrested, and cabinet will most likely outlive you.
Nudge away and use pinball "english" to your heart's content, but still be mindful when you move your games.
Quoted from vid1900:Ah, the ignorance of youth
Honestly who gives a rats ass about yesteryear. We do not live in the past-we live in the present, comparing shit to the good old days is irrelevant. Today's games are 3-10X the price and are being marketed not only to operators but home owner collectors that don't want their shit falling apart within weeks. People have a right to be concerned or upset.
The problem not only lies with the joining method and lack of bracing but also the adhesive used. There are different grades of adhesive and/or hot melt and there are some that are industrial strength and have tremendous bond strength. I can tell they are using cheap glue, formulas have come a long way over the last decade. Just like trying to find the right clear coat formula, they need to look into industrial strength hot melt glue.
Quoted from pinmister:Today's games are 3-10X the price and are being marketed not only to operators but home owner collectors that don't want there shit falling apart within weeks. People have a right to be concerned or upset.
Today, Stern turns out 5K-15K pieces of shit.
Amazing that these schmucks in Stern management do not address any of this.
Someone should get Dateline involved. Would love to see Chris Hansen surprise Gary. How is pinball exempt from lemon laws? If your cars wheels fell off after one right turn people would freak out.
Quoted from Buzz:Operators only care about earnings if it was made of dog shit they would not care as long as the quarter drop worked. Different time and different customers manufactures have for the most part priced out op's so the home consumer is the key target to keep happy in pinball. Any smart op does ticket redemption basically slot machines for kids or operates a $20 gum ball sticker machine. Vid you are fu@king awesome and love the history and help you provide. If companies can't make a product that can't last a month in a home then good luck with whatever op that is willing to pay these prices and have it fall apart on location and hurt someone. In today's sue crazy world your done.
Incorrect. We very much care about pinball and the condition of our games.
Quoted from chucksmith:Let's compare Stern's cabinet design to a current competitor.
Despite their flaws, they rule the roost. There are no competitors.
Just took some pictures of my 2016 MET which has been out of commission for months anyway with a flawed drop target assembly and clear coat problems, so any cabinet problems are not from playing and the NIB packing on the pallet didn't have any damage, I have pictures.
Left side looks great, right side not so much...
Quoted from Buzz:Someone should get Dateline involved. Would love to see Chris Hansen surprise Gary.
Quoted from pinmister:Today's games are 3-10X the price
It's fun to think that, but in reality, a game that was $1800 NIB in 1978 would cost $7,000 in 2017 dollars.
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1800&year1=1978&year2=2017
Quoted from Buzz:How is pinball exempt from lemon laws?
Because the Lemon Law concerns automobiles, and you still have to sue the company to get the buyback.
It's not like you drive the car back to the dealer and say "This is the 3rd time you've fixed this BMW door seal, you can pay me $68,000 now please...."
Quoted from Skypilot:They are using a 7 ply cabinet grade material. I cannot say more on the product. It looks like they are wrapping the decals and then assembling the corners. This does leave less area to adhere glue to so I'm a bit skeptical about that. I am not knowledgeable about there internal bracing so I will not add opinion.
I can confirm that the Spooky cabinets have their decals applied to the parts first, and then assembled using pocket screws. They look very solid.
I'm unsure if they are also glued ... if they are not, you could unscrew a side, pop it off and replace the decal. Very neat.
rd
Quoted from tacshose:Just took some pictures of my 2016 MET which has been out of commission for months anyway with a flawed drop target assembly and clear coat problems, so any cabinet problems are not from playing and the NIB packing on the pallet didn't have any damage, I have pictures.
Left side looks great, right side not so much...
WTF am I looking at? Your corners look fine to me.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:WTF am I looking at? Your corners look fine to me.
The right corner does not look like the left corner
Anyone watch the news and see what the stockholders and customers just did to United? There is power in numbers. I called Stern about my on going two year problem and the were not nice of helpful and within 30 seconds told me my distributor has never contacted them. So I called and got included in the email to prove at least today they were. A big fu@king brush off. That's what you get some may be luckier than me. And I don't believe a op will ever care about anything but are people putting money in it. Look at most the games if you are lucky enough to find one have their games. There are exceptions of course.
Quoted from tacshose:The right corner does not look like the left corner
they just cut the side panel a hair too short on one so the little tab has a slight area that it's not touching. This is supposedly a concern? WTF? I really hope this is sarcasm to show people that you cannot be anal retentive and be in pinball. because that's the reality of the situation. If you are anal about everything in life. Get as far away from pinball as possible, because you will be complaining every step of the way.
As much as I respect Vid's history lesson of "oh you think this is bad, you should see what we dealt with back in the 80's and 90's", I don't think this excuses Stern in current times. I mean if we all had that attitude about cars "oh hell, 1 out of 10 cars that rolled off the assembly line had issues that had to be reworked", we'd all still be driving lemons instead of pretty reliable vehicles from almost every manufacturer. It should be a race to the top, not the bottom.
Aren't Stern backboxes currently half metal half MDF? Maybe they should experiment with that concept for the bottom cabinet too? Maybe only the sides should be wood and there should be some sort of metal brackets in each corner that joins all 5 pieces together for a solid structure that requires no glueing, really no vendor to make cabinets (just paste whatever art needs to be on each flat piece of wood, and bolt it into the metal corner brackets on the production floor).
This thread is full of so much FUD it's crazy. Typically overblown Pinside reaction. Not trying to downplay the real issues, but please. So glad KPG is not around anymore, or we would see some stupid change.org petition. If you think you have an issue call Stern. Don't run rampant getting everyone spun up. Oh wait that's what 85% of this fourm has become. Carry on.
Any help would be much appreciated if anyone can please pm if you don't want to post. I just want my playfield fixed.
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Los Angeles, CA
Sana'a
Bally/Midway Kings of Steel. Need to fix to get this up for sale soon.