I saw him at Louisville wearing a similar backwards cap. Looked like Fletch.

You still need enough weight to keep the game from traveling.

Wood is heavy, cheap, it gets a small dent rather than a cave-in, it's field repairable, it's quiet - wood has a lot of advantages over metal.

I was at another Pinsider's house a week or two ago that had a cherry condition Af-Tor. I tried to buy it but he wasn't selling. That game is actually very cool, and has a ton of "firsts" in pinball. I'll try again in a few weeks.

Manufacturers already did it multiple times.

Gottlieb constructed a handful of games with metal lower cabinets and standoffs, but the cabinets were not entirely made of metal.
One of the most notable was Sinbad in 1978.
Other than the additional cost, the cabinets were heavy, cumbersome to construct, easily dented, and noisy based on bells and chimes dependent on title.
Designers did not see significant improvements.

WICO repeated the process for Af-Tor in 1984 but upped the ante for both backbox, standoff struts, and cabinet.
That game is heavy.

If owners want full metal cabinets, expect not only higher prices, but new manufacturer challenges.
Especially, if tuff coats are used to prime.
Otherwise in 25 years, everybody will be want to clean cabinets with tanker trucks of Evapo-Rust.

Because the head is no longer supporting a heavy glass and components. It doesn't take the abuse and force of the player.. or the game's mass... or support the game in transit. The head's design is simple and doesn't need re-enforcements or structure.. it gets the rigidity it needs from the side panels.

The design criteria would be night and day...

The head is a big nothing.

Back during the 70s EM-SS transition, all us operators were waiting for when the head would shrink down (no longer needing room for all the score reels), but it never did.

Pinball was very conservative, the manufacturers were always worried about changing something and spooking the ops.

Dang. Should've said hey. If we met, I either forgot or didn't put two and two together with pinsider names. Haha

They just got bigger. I can't believe how obnoxiously huge the heads on the first bunch of System 11 games are. I also can't believe how gigantic and heavy those System 3 gottlieb games are.

Why....WHY?! You can't even fit a System 3 in some SUVs, they are too tall.

Definitely...the cabs are deep. I thought my GMC Terrain was very pin friendly...until I picked up an 1812 and Bone Busters. About 2-3 inches taller when folded down than WPC games. They don't separate though.

The head on Alien looks ridiculous to me though after seeing it in person at Pinfest. Looks like the backbox on a Zizzle game.

Pinball without a head just seems so weird. Look at an Atari game, I think there's only a light bulb in there.

unless there is some sort of projected heads up display I don't see it happening.

-c

I hear ya. Drove down to Rockland Pinball in a Terrain to pick up a Stern ST, sure that it would fit. After 10 minutes of walking it in, careful angling, and finally some jamming of the T-moulding into the Terrain's headliner at the trunk opening, it FINALLY slid in. What a process.

I've wedged too. I also removed the two plastic "strap caps" on the roof on mine...actually gives you another inch or so. They are only held in by a single screw...and now reside in my glove box.

I've watched a lot of videos of people putting legs on setting up Stern pinballs and I've not once seen anyone use their fingers to tighten a leg bolt. I'll go so far as to say, I wonder if some people over tighten , not under-tighten.

This is how STERN presented leg installation.

(time coded )

I'll go so far as to disagree.

I over tighten every damn one of my leg bolts and then glue them to stay that way. I also put rubber feet on the bottom of the legs causing as much strain & stress as possible to the cabinet corners. Then I let the general public beat the shit out of the games with no supervision, to the tune of up to 25,000 plays on at least one game, with others averaging 20,000 or so plays.

Not a single split cabinet.....

Yet. I just placed a brand new AS pro into the same lineup. After 3 weeks, no splitting. Let's see what happens.

I'd have to say, I think that a pin should be able to endure the type of "stress" that you've described.
These ARE commercial-use machines after all, hence the price tag.

we (squeezed) got a Waterworld into a BMW X3.

You are correct, many people regularly overtorque and improperly install leg bolts, damaging bolts themselves, plates, and cabinets.
This includes factory workers, but that is rarely out of ignorance, just haste.

Experienced owners raise the cabinet on a dolly by tipping the cabinet onto the platform, lightly coat their leg bolts with lithium grease just like casters, and use their fingers to hand tighten bolts, not just break out and crank down on a ratchet.

The reason a person should finger tighten bolts first is prevent the bolts from being improperly threaded and stripping them out prematurely, especially when a person rushes. The bolts are harder metal than the leg bolt plate threads. If an owner does not know how tight leg bolts should be in the first place, use a torque wrench.

The basic method shown by Stern on video is based on old "operator location methodology", which has been done for years, just like when operators rest the rear of the cabinet on their hip instead of a dolley after front leg installation, if one is not available and they are by themselves. These actions apply unnecessary pressure on the cabinet and shearing forces against the leg bolt plates.

The Stern installation video for legs is far from optimal, and simply what they were taught on the production line.

Note: When I received my NIB MET in 2015, two of the four leg bolt plates were already partially stripped out from the factory and replaced with WMS plates before even a single game was played on the game. This occurred due to the reasons I stated above.

d93d06aa-927a-4980-b456-0e47a54e8161_300 (resized).jpg

Well I found my cabinet cracked all the way down on the left side after reading this thread a while back. I submitted pictures to my distributor and about 3 weeks later we got the approval for Stern to replace my cabinet. I had submitted pictures of my ghosting playfield several months ago and Stern said "let's wait and see if it gets worse." Well since that time is has spread to two other inserts. Minor, but still there. I requested for a playfield and cabinet replacement. I know for sure I will be receiving a cabinet replacement but it is still unknown if I will be receiving a playfield replacement. I will share pictures once the new cabinet arrives.

OK since you brought it up what is the proper torque setting? !0 lbs...20 lbs...100 lbs?

does that commercial-use equal commercial quality ?

my techno, and life fitness machines are for commercial use...
they are very well made... built to handle 24/7 gym operation. powder coated
11ga steel. price tag - also high. so i expect quality./ and lastability

Yep. In my opinion it does.
How could anyone think otherwise? We pay for a machine that comes with non-optional coin mechs.

Thanks for the tip @monster_bash, I appreciate it. I will be using #10 screws as they fit the hole best and that will prevent the bracket or wood from shifting.

My concern is ... When you insert the screw, that the displaced wood has to go somewhere such as mounding at the cab outside or inside, or possible splitting/cracking which if there's any chance of me cracking my cab all in the name of stopping cracking... well that's not an acceptable risk.

But there's also the viewpoint such as Monster_Bash : If the Stern wood is really that soft, by not drilling a pilot hole, you are just compressing the wood around the screw filling air-gaps. The result is a more solid bite for the screw with now dense material packed around it.

But this raises a new question. If the stern wood is really that soft, will these brackets do anything to protect you? or will the screws simply rip out of the soft wood as the machine is nudged, jiggled, moved, whatever. This is a good argument for putting glue in the screw hole to harden up the wood around the threads which someone has already suggested.

Chuck your way over thinking this, your dealing with plywood here, the screws aren't gonna cause the wood to split and the wood isn't soft enough that the screws are gonna rip out. Just screw them in and be done with it, they will be fine. I've done 3 of my 13 so far and there's no problems at all. Just do it.

Paul and monster-bash are 100% correct. Do not use pilot holes. I did not use pilot holes and everything went smoothly. I also used the glue on the screw idea. -- Used #10 nut driver head 1/2 " long. Yup the had 1/2" #10's stainless steel at Menard's.

Thanks for the help guys. I'm ready to play some pinball !

Should have made a video of that Chuck and added it to your already awesome YouTube pinball vids collection!

Forget about putting glue on the threads, I installed these brass inserts, and then used #12 machine screws.

When the North Korean nukes hit the coast, all that will be left with be my cockroaches and my unbroken wood joints.

117012-2T (resized).jpg

What did you do about that gap we talked about?

did you use sheet metal screws or wood screws? Someone advised against using metal screws and I've being waiting to find wood screws to do the job. I was thinking of doing the same as you with #10 sheet metal screws, but I was going to drill a small pilot hole, might not do that now that you tried it out and it's okay not using a pilot hole with the #10 screws.

Once the braid was out of the way, the gap was less than we had talked about. I still had a bit of gap between the walls and the bracket, so I made these spacers out of metal pipe strap. I made 1 for each side of each bracket so its balanced and fills the gap.

This stuff comes in handy for all sorts of things.
Here's a picture of the parts laid out . Hopefully this will help others with a gap either at the center or sides of the bracket. Pipe strap can be cut with a good tin-snips and new holes can be drilled as needed. BTW: I used TightBond III. Per @pinballinreno, its the best to use.
https://www.amazon.com/Titebond-1412-III-Wood-Glue/dp/B0002YQ378/ref=sr_1_4

bw bracket spacer-2 (resized).jpg

About the pilot hole: At this point, I cannot say you are helping yourself and maybe contributing to a lesser bite. The guys are right.
Stern's plywood is plenty soft. You can press the screw in quite a bit before turning. The bite was satisfying. I felt like this really will hold up over time. Before I screwing into my Ghostbusters , I took a 1/2" thick scrap piece of plywood and pushed the #10 screw in and screwed it in all the way less than a 1/2" from the edge. There was no splitting not even a little. I decided this is going to be fine and moved on to put screws in my GB.
=========================
I have to say, I've used lots of different screws in my life and I often times prefer non-wood screws. My wife makes jokes every time I say I'm off to Menards, because she know's there's 98% chance I'm going to buy screws. I do suggest you 'not' buy self tapping sheet metal screws because they waste length on the tapping portion and you do not need it in this situation.
selftapper (resized).jpg
screw good (resized).jpg

Now your thinkin Chuck, that strapping does come in handy. Like I said, the plywood will not split even with a # 12 screw, no one should worry about it. Your right the self tapping are not a good choice. Really no need to buy the stainless screws, waste of money, the plated screws won't rust in out lifetime. I used 3/4 inch #10 with a regular washer and a serated lock washer, more bite and no where near coming out the other side. ST Pro done today, Mustang Pro on Monday. Our Pinball BBQ is tomorrow.

18595220_10210149547560051_7217967631724573977_o (resized).jpg

Around 35 lbs or so, after the bolts are snug and hand tightened.

New cabinets do require a LOWER torque rating than 35 lbs in comparison to older games depend on leg style and slight cabinet and bolt leg plate variations along with the plates and bolts being fresh, and bolts still might be cutting their threaded groove.
There are differences, although minor in most cases.
Wood rails are a completely different animal, and extreme care should be taken not to split the legs which are usually quite dry.
Operators have a tendency to really crank down on the bolts to almost 50 lbs in some cases, not recommended as this damages the cabinets.
Cabinet bolts and legs are not car tires, and overtightening legs to damaged cabinets and "grooving".
I doubt a game could even handle 100 lbs as the metal on the bolts and plates is too soft.
If an owner starts feel the bolts starting to give (old or new games) with short pushes, the bolts are already starting to strip out, and it is time to replace the bolts and plate.
This is hard to actually explain to someone without showing them in person by "feel".
The amount of time between replacements is dependent on the number of times a game is moved, whether it is on location, and how rough players are on the game.
Ultimately, all games require bolt and plate replacement at some point in their lives, unless they never move from a game room corner.

Owners need to make sure to use teflon or lithium grease during installation, if they want to make their lives easier in the long run and extend the life of the bolts and plates.
This also includes putting the bolts back in the SAME HOLES, when the game is moved.
If plates are required to be replaced, ALWAYS replace the bolts, no exceptions.

These are some tips not mentioned on Stern's installation videos, unless something has changed.
There are so many little things an owner can do to help preserve their games.
If an owner has ever seen a person trying to remove a stripped out bolt on a leg by "spinning the leg in a circle like a clock", they will wince.
If a leg bolt is completely stuck and stripped, put the game up on a dolly, have someone hold the leg, and gently tap in the inside with a peen hammer, unscrew, then replace the bolts and plate. It might even require cutting, if it is really bad, otherwise cabinet damage results.

That's why I suggested using the Williams plates. The stock plates only have about 3 threads while the Williams plates almost 6.

thanks for the info! Good idea on the plumbers strap to fill in any gap, I will make sure i add that to my shopping list. Did you do any other brackets or just the B/W brackets? I know others we're adding 1 or 2 additional brackets. Did you do all corners or just the front 2?

Plywood wont split in this situation...just put in sheet metal screws with no pilot holes...don't make it more complicated than it needs to be

Gist of thread:use Bally Williams stuff because it's better then Data East.......I mean Stern.
Lesson learned

Questions RE: Williams leg plates/brackets

1. I see Chuck used a clever way to fill a gap in the back. have others (who used the plates) needed to do this as well?

2. Dumb question, but i assume you need to take off the original stern bracket before putting on the williams one, yes?

Any help appreciated!

FWIW, mine split (on left side) within a week of arriving. Never moved, barely played, not over-torqued.

Immediately went to JJ @ G-exchange to contact stern on my behalf (which is why I asked around for a reputable re-seller b4 buying). Stern agreed to send out a new mostly populated cab (I would need to move backbox, PF, coin door and the node board by the coin door).

They accidentally (read the whole sentence b4 the jokes start, heh) sent me a bare cab, meaning I would have had to move EVERYTHING over. I squaked about this, they apologized and connected me to a local pin repair company authorized by Stern to do warranty repair and that they would take care of everything and do the swap for me.

I am certainly no stern fanboy, but when it comes to the cab's at least, it seems like if you have an issue and can document it (make sure you take a pic of the pin crated when you receive/unbox it so if there does end up being an issue you can show there was no crate damage) they will take care of it.

First off thanks for sharing your happy ending story, great to hear a good Stern story for a change.

#1 I have not had the need to do that to 3 Stern game so far, 10 more cabs to do.
#2 Yes the old bracket AND pull 2 ground braid staples so the new plate slide under it si it attaches to the top of the new plate. Plan on about 45 minutes to put them on. Time well spent.

Early Bally games have a wedge cleats glued and nailed. That would be even cheaper than a metal bracket. They also have pins nails through the sides. It's a shame that quality has gone down the toilet.

You were in and out on your WCS94. Didn't want to bother you it looked like you were in the middle of something.

For some follow up on this, the owner did tell Stern about the cabinet and they shipped him a new cabinet to replace this one. The replacement cabinet arrived at the end of last week.

No worries. Come say hey next time. I usually have plenty of beer on me too!

Reading this thread, WMS brackets seem sensible.

Looking at this picture earlier in thread , what about a panel pin in bottom corner and maybe top?

Gottlieb in the 1950's used panel pins/glue and braces and some have stayed together for 60 years plus.

Any reason why not to use a panel pin or two?

Won't even see the lower ones at all.

f4d1cb3113260780f5291a41d1354889a30344bd (resized).jpg

IMG_1522 (resized).JPG

Not enough holding power using just nails. Just mount another leg bolt plate down there.

Your beer is safe with me, I quit drinking a decade ago.

Ha. Fair enough. Well if I remember correctly you're a jam band fan so I'm sure we will get along just fine. Haha

Well Dang, I should have been more involved. I had no idea we had a Pinball BBQ here in the Minneapolis St.Paul area.
Next year I'll plan better. I need to get involved some in the flesh people! ... I'd love to meet up with fellow pinsiders in MN.

Well the BBQ is by invite and you have to bring a game so ask Steve about next year. If your local come on over some evening, I think you'll find my 2 gameroomes very different. Bring a friend that's thinking about getting into the hobby, he'll get hooked for sure.

You are correct. Will be seeing Phish coming up in July, Dayton and Pittsburgh. Thinking about running up to Chicago to see all 3 nights there as well.

Hitting up Petty and Wilco this coming week, not jam bands however.