Quoted from usandthem:$8500 Ghostbusters LE at Pinball Pete's in Ann Arbor, MI.
Ouch....that hurt me looking at the pic....
Quoted from usandthem:$8500 Ghostbusters LE at Pinball Pete's in Ann Arbor, MI.
Ouch....that hurt me looking at the pic....
Quoted from vid1900:The strongest plywood joint is a Thru-Dovetail joint.
I say CCC offers Stern customers this as a $1000 upgrade, like they do when you order kitchen cabinets.
How much more work is involved in this compared to the current method?
Some of you guys are hilarious
So there is def a problem right
Let's blame it on the Russians. WTF
Maybe they are secretly supplying shitty wood to take down the pinball industry
The overwhelming majority don't give a shit about the overwhelming minority of issues
How do I know? Stern is selling the shit out of it and said GB might end up being their biggest seller ever
That oh by the way, are getting F ing handled
Quoted from jkashani:I checked my Tron, Star Trek and Metallica and they are fine. I can't see how anyone could trust the recent builds and buy a NIB. But then again pinball guys are not the sharpest tools in the shed, present company included.
jkashani I thought you sold your Tron?
Quoted from lordloss:How much more work is involved in this compared to the current method?
The lock-miter requires 2 linear station "spindle-routers" for production.
The through Dovetail is done vertically by CNC.
Less operator work in the CNC, but the consumable bits are expensive, so it drives up the costs.
It would be a lot cheaper and easier to use a box joint or sliding dovetail. The problem with dovetails especially with full length sides and the tru-dovetail is if the manufacturer !$@s up, it negates the strength of the joint.
The reality is if the same standard of a miter joint is used as the past, the problem is predominantly solved. Pinball machines are not armoires.
Why are people wanting to turn pinball cabinets into furniture or is this what this hobby has become now?
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:The problem with dovetails especially with full length sides and the tru-dovetail is if the manufacturer !$@s up, it negates the strength of the joint.
The CNC software takes care of that nowadays.
Even resharpened bits (that now have slightly different diameter/geometry) are compensated for.
You set the tolerance (how tight or loose you want the joint) and away she goes.
My jaw drops when I see an 8 foot long dovetail joint that requires a rubber mallet to assemble!
Quoted from jkashani:But then again pinball guys are not the sharpest tools in the shed, present company included.
Most of them can't even use a hammer and nails to fix this shit.
Quoted from usandthem:$8500 Ghostbusters LE at Pinball Pete's in Ann Arbor, MI.
Stern keeps on churning out crap.
Quoted from Mike_J:Stern keeps on churning out crap.
It was probably some 300 pound animal abusing that poor pin on location
Quoted from iceman44:It was probably some 300 pound animal abusing that poor pin on location
Rubber pin casters on tile. I used to use those rubber pin casters. The issue with those is that game doesn't slide at all. So if you try to slide or nudge all of the force is on the legs and where the leg connects to the cabinet. Instead I switched to casters that have felt on the bottom that allow the game to slide. Not sure if that is contributing to the issue. They should be more indestructible for sure but I bet those rubber casters don't help.
No, had it for sale and decided to keep it.
Quoted from arcademojo:jkashani I thought you sold your Tron?
Quoted from kermit24:Rubber pin casters on tile. I used to use those rubber pin casters. The issue with those is that game doesn't slide at all. So if you try to slide or nudge all of the force is on the legs and where the leg connects to the cabinet. Instead I switched to casters that have felt on the bottom that allow the game to slide. Not sure if that is contributing to the issue. They should be more indestructible for sure but I bet those rubber casters don't help.
I don't think I've ever heard of rubber casters on a pin causing a cabinet to split. Thousands of those things have been sold and have been used for years without issue. This issue is likely due to a manufacturing flaw.
Quoted from iceman44:Some of you guys are hilarious
So there is def a problem right
Let's blame it on the Russians. WTF
Maybe they are secretly supplying shitty wood to take down the pinball industry
WTF Ice you know it's Trumps fault.
Quoted from zr11990:WTF Ice you know it's Trumps fault.
Shhhhh....We need to get the FBI, both houses of congress and a special investigator involved to see wtf is going on with these cabs and PF's!
Maybe Rachel Maddow has the smoking gun?
Quoted from iceman44:Shhhhh....We need to get the FBI, both houses of congress and a special investigator involved to see wtf is going on with these cabs and PF's!
Maybe Rachel Maddow has the smoking gun?
Lol Rachel Madcow....what a stupid ****!
Quoted from Darscot:This whole discussion is so weird. Pinball is so lost in the past. When did mankind learn to interlock corners, probable ancient egypt or some shit. Yet still pinballers make excuses and act like it's costly or complicated to make a box with a partially open top. Stern fucked this up and it's laughable.
Lol. Probably post of the year. I'm adding "...or some shit" to the end of my everyday sentences.
Give me extra fries or some shit!
Quoted from iceman44:Shhhhh....We need to get the FBI, both houses of congress and a special investigator involved
Why not the entire cabinet?
Quoted from o-din:Why not the entire cabinet?
You are one funny MF er Odiner!
Btw, while the bitchfest is going on with the cabs, the sound system and LCD is F ing awesome on these new pins!
Quoted from o-din:That comes from hard work.
Tan lines on your feet, that's awesome lol!! You're something else o-din!
Quoted from o-din:Speaking of crappy construction, I've got my own problems here.
7 ball multi-ball is hard to cradle separate.
Quoted from o-din:Next time remind me to put my sandals back on before I open one of these old POS coin doors.
Yeah looks like you smashed your toes there's!
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Yes, it existed, as I directly specified, please do not misguide people.
That ends that discussion.
However, I also explained the SIX direct causes for very early damage, if the game was new out of box for one month, which otherwise is uncommon.
Mostly out of negligence of operators or owners in the past.
Materials and construction were not purely synonymous since the 1940s until today.
Basic designs are the same, so I am not going to say there was some type of revelation in the modern Stern age, that they figured out a way to build cabinets better, because you cannot unless you use better quality materials, more labor, and more time.
Yes, it has relevance.
Yes, there were times that metal was used more heavily in construction.
I gave WICO as an example in the 80s, or WMS in the 60s.
That is not a solution either.
The biggest differences on cabinets is how they were reinforced on the inside (the most critical aspect), what materials were used beyond standard 7 layer plywood, and how the joints were cut including mitering of edges, not just the joints.
The basic standard is a 45 degree miter joint with internal reinforcement with wood triangles using hide glue and industrial staples, with a lower cabinet crossbar. Rear joints were butted, or mitered. Back panel was mill edged and glued. Leg bolts were mounted on a simple recessed metal plate with two nails driven into wood triangle.
Earlier games even used wooden dowels essentially turning them into furniture.
When games started to become heavier in the 1980s, larger metal plates were used for the corner bracing, but the basic construction remained the same including the crossbar. Sometimes more triangles were used, or even full corner strips.
Bottoms still tended to be cheap materials.
After the the shenanigans with particle board cabinets, most manufacturers retained standard plywood construction.
In the late 80s-early 90s, we lost the solid crossbar (or T-brace in some cases), as less and less weight was on the bottom of the cabinet itself, except a speaker.
The "BLY/WMS leg bolt plates" (the ones everybody recognizes today) did not start being used until around 1993 (based on the weight of games increasing again with titles such as TZ, STTNG, and RS), up to that point, BLY/WMS used the same flat metal strips that were designed years before.
The two things that concern me about this situation is:
1 ) What type of joints are being used for the cabinet?
They are not 45 degree miter or dovetail (trapezoidal) for the front which reduces interlocking strength, especially if there is glue separation, as there is nothing to hold the side panel back from cracking. I think Stern might have been caught red handed again in the cost cutting cookie jar, which is highly unfortunate. I have not checked the back corners of my MET, which in the past were butt jointed at minimum. This is why I recommended to install a flanged angle brace which keeps the joint in place in conjunction with new leg bolt plates. Very strong.
2 ) What type of glue is being used?
Hide glue is fine, as long as it is properly allowed to dry with clamps.
It just has to be watched occasionally after 5 years or so.
Unless you are constantly moving games, it really should not matter.
I hope people do not expect Stern to be sending out carpenters to fix people's games or new cabinets.
Building pinball cabinets is the least complicated part of the pinball process!
If a person wants to learn how to make their own cabinet or how they are made and educate themselves without speculation, here is a solid guide:
https://howtobuildapinballmachine.wordpress.com/category/the-cabinet/
Education is most important part of this discussion now.
I wasn't misguiding anyone, and based on what people think I said, I guess I just wasn't good at making my point. Basically what I was saying, is that there are all kinds of differing opinions on what is normal and what is not, and I wasn't taking sides in that argument. I was deferring to those of you with the years of experience routing and repairing pins.
I was just making the point that we have no real info on any of the pics that were posted. Anyone can post and claim anything. We don't know if it was drug behind my pickup truck, dropped off the carriers truck, improperly packaged, purposely screwed up by a disgruntled employee or just the result of a shitty designed joint. Based on what you wrote, I am going to again defer to your experience and agree that the joint is probably weaker than what used to be produced. But is that the sole reason it is cracked and splintered? Only the person who took the pic has an honest chance of knowing for sure. That is the only point I was obviously failing at trying to make.
Quoted from Manimal:Based on what you wrote, I am going to again defer to your experience and agree that the joint is probably weaker than what used to be produced. But is that the sole reason it is cracked and splintered? Only the person who took the pic has an honest chance of knowing for sure. That is the only point I was obviously failing at trying to make.
Well this one aspect that can be learned from this situation.
Using rubber caster cups on the bottom of pinball legs on a route and hardwood floor is far from optimal.
Reduced "give" does put added tensional and shearing stress on the joints and can easily crack the corners if the game is shoved violently backwards or to the sides.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Well this one aspect that can be learned from this situation.
Using rubber caster cups on the bottom of pinball legs on a route and hardwood floor is far from optimal.
Reduced "give" does put added tensional and shearing stress on the joints and can easily crack the corners if the game is shoved violently.
Caster cups have been used for years with no problems.
Quoted from 0geist0:Caster cups have been used for years with no problems.
BLUF: I DO NOT recommend using rubber caster cups on any surface.
Yes they have been used, on properly jointed and reinforced corner braced cabinets.
Which I believe was the basis of this discussion, not caster cups.
Caster cups have been used readily on other floor surface types as well.
This considers no other factors I mentioned which add to the potential of damage such as improperly tightening of leg bolts.
Have they been used without any problems?
Incorrect. Stripped leg bolt plates, bent legs, and damaged cabinets.
Some operators do care, some do not.
Do homeowners care?
Most likely a whole lot more.
But, what was I trying to do to educate people anyway?
Naysay any issue?
If a person wants to disagree on design stresses, do I need to take it to an engineering testing laboratory and play Mythbusters?
This should be intuitive based on coefficient of friction between the rubber, the floor, the distributed weight of the machine, and the physical forces applied by a player or owner, but maybe it is not for non-technical types here.
There are better methods, such as small pieces of carpet, or even a piece of cardboard, if a person is worried about a floor and their machines. You can still slide it (with difficulty), but the stresses are reduced.
If people think that rubber casters on non-carpeted hardwood or linoleum floors are a good idea, feel free to do it.
In fact, put games on full size rubber exercise mats, if believed to be better choice.
There are people here that have experience and are trying to help.
I gave detailed instructions on how to prevent or at least arrest damage in previous posts.
Caster cups do not help fix the problem, they make it WORSE, and they certainly do not aid in strengthening a cabinet from damage.
There's a Ghostbusters Pro on location at a bowling alley near me. It's on freshly waxed tile and you can easily slide it 6-10" without a tilt warning. I've been trying all sorts of fun stuff at $0.50/game.
Rubber-footed casters will introduce torque on the leg bolts, for sure. Seeing how the bolts essentially sit between the two sides of the cabinet, they really could contribute to damage, but I think it would be minimized to some degree by the bolt plate attaching to both sides of the cabinet on the interior. Allowing the machine to slide would still be best though.
Quoted from 0geist0:Caster cups have been used for years with no problems.
One of the first things I learned from fellow operators when I got into this back in the 90's was not to put rubber cups on the feet of pins. The more secure the feet are the greater the chance of bending legs and cracking cab corners. I was always told to use carpet squares upside down so the pin could move a little,reducing stress to the legs.
Quoted from T-800:Everything I've seen posted seems to have been on routed games. Anyone have info on HUO in non-abusive environments?
Chris Bucci, "Spida", posted his cracking right front cabinet photo on the first thread page.
He does not abuse his games, and he knows how to set them up properly out of the box.
Overall, this looks to be a joint issue in conjunction with the glue, and lack of reinforcement.
I don't think he reinforced his GB game like I did a couple of years ago on my MET PM.
Quoted from T-800:Everything I've seen posted seems to have been on routed games. Anyone have info on HUO in non-abusive environments?
Multiple HUO games have been posted or mentioned with the issue. This has to be a manufacturing flaw as this many reports of cabinet's separating has never occurred over the years.
Quoted from emkay:There's a Ghostbusters Pro on location at a bowling alley near me. It's on freshly waxed tile and you can easily slide it 6-10" without a tilt warning. I've been trying all sorts of fun stuff at $0.50/game.
This is why there are rubber footies on games on location.
Quoted from arcademojo:One of the first things I learned from fellow operators when I got into this back in the 90's was not to put rubber cups on the feet of pins. The more secure the feet are the greater the chance of bending legs and cracking cab corners. I was always told to use carpet squares upside down so the pin could move a little,reducing stress to the legs.
Doesn't it depend on the type of castor cups?
I have them on all my games to protect floor.
But, because I want to move them easily they are all have felt on the bottom so they slide real easily. And on carpet they are the 'carpet sliders' so they also glide like a hot knife through butter.
So, I guess they are ok?
Quoted from gmkalos:...nobody drives a wood car anymore lol
Maybe not but how about a motorcycle?
Quoted from Homepin:Maybe not but how about a motorcycle?
got a match lol, there's a lot of things that shouldn't be made of wood like toasters, siding and dildos.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Doesn't it depend on the type of castor cups?
I have them on all my games to protect floor.
But, because I want to move them easily they are all have felt on the bottom so they slide real easily. And on carpet they are the 'carpet sliders' so they also glide like a hot knife through butter.
So, I guess they are ok?
Yes, you are correct. Felt is what you want. Since everyone was saying rubber bottom I assumed that was what you meant. The idea is to not make your legs stick to the floor.
Quoted from arcademojo:Yes, you are correct. Felt is what you want. Since everyone was saying rubber bottom I assumed that was what you meant. The idea is to not make your legs stick to the floor.
I agree with this but its hard to do when you have thick carpet. I tried using sliders yesterday and they make the machine feel top heavy and it rocks side to side so that's not going to work.
Quoted from Homepin:Maybe not but how about a motorcycle?
This made me laugh!
Quoted from gmkalos:there's a lot of things that shouldn't be made of wood like toasters, siding and "dildos".
This made me spit my coffee out!
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