(Topic ID: 257750)

Stern Whitestar CPU-board broken oscillator?

By kniven11

4 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by G-P-E
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40Mhz oscillator (resized).jpg
#1 4 years ago

I am comparing my friends non-working Whitestar CPU-board and mine (working pcb). We both have LOTR. His is a LE, mine an original but both have same revision cpu pcb.
His is not booting at all. When you turn it on the GI lights come on but nothing more happens. We have tried swapping ram, rom and sound rom but no change. There is no acid damage.

When I move the pcb to the test bench mine has clock signal on test points E and Q. His pcb has no signal there, or anywhere else.
When I measure on crystal oscillator Y1 my working pcb has 3V on pin 1. His pcb has zero. If I interpret the Stern schematics correct it seems pin 1 is not connected and according to datasheet for the oscillator there is an internal 'pull-up resistor', thereby giving an active state.

This morning I tried to simulate a 'pull-up resistor' connecting a 100kohm resistor from 3,3V to pin 1 but there were not any clock signal anywhere... (I measured about 110kohm on my pcb, thereforte I tried 100 kohm...)

Does anyone have any info of how this crystal oscillator work?
Am I correct in suspecting his oscillator is broken?

Attached pic is from Stern schematics and datasheet.
Link to datasheet: https://www.mouser.se/datasheet/2/160/h5c2e-1166946.pdf

40Mhz oscillator (resized).jpg40Mhz oscillator (resized).jpg
#2 4 years ago

Did you also check for 3.3V at pin 4? And that pin 1 is not shorted to ground for some reason?

If those are OK, very likely the oscillator is bad.

#3 4 years ago

Yep, there is 3,3 volts at pin 4 and pin 1 is not shorted.
So I guess we have to order substitutes for this oscillator? Unless anyone know where to get original ones?

#4 4 years ago

Elfa has some, but looks like they all are surface mount. But it is not very hard to solder short leads to the SMT.

https://www.elfa.se/search?q=oscillator+40+MHz&page=1&pageSize=10

#5 4 years ago

Mouser has several with the right package (Dip-8) but from other manufacturers. Pinout seems to be standardized. I hope one of them will be a matching substitute.

#6 4 years ago

Are there clocking signals at the 68B09EP that can be measured with a logic probe? Crystals don’t often fail.

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#7 4 years ago
Quoted from kniven11:

Mouser has several with the right package (Dip-8) but from other manufacturers. Pinout seems to be standardized. I hope one of them will be a matching substitute.

If there is no output coming out of the oscillator it is probably failed.

Pin out is standard. Just get the right package shape. Since it does not look like they are using the output enable you can also use an always enabled type. Then just match working voltage. CTS, Abracom or any brand will do.

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Pin out is standard. Just get the right package shape. Since it does not look like they are using the output enable you can also use an always enabled type. Then just match working voltage. CTS, Abracom or any brand will do.

Generally I agree... however, Did you pull R502 and R509 and verify that there is a clock signal with the "loads" removed?
Crystal Osc rarely go bad... but this may be a case. Verifying OSC operation with no load and with the proper equipment (oscope) would give a definitive answer.

#9 4 years ago

I have checked both with oscope and logic probe and there is no pulse on Q, E or pin 34-35 on 68B09E. Just nothing... (Well, a Zero with logic probe on q and E)

Zitt - If you, by 'pull', mean physically remove R502 and 509 I'd rather not. They are SMD and I have extremely little experience soldering smd stuff. Or did you mean something else?

barakandl - TY for advice on substitutes.

Before posting this question I searched for a week on various forums and oscillator failure seems rare. But I have a hard time finding any other solution plausable since I have nothing on pin 1.
(Note! - Stern number the pins 1-2-3-4 but standard pin numbering is 1-4-5-8)
Not only am I seeking help, I'd think it might help somebody else in the future...

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from kniven11:

I have checked both with oscope and logic probe and there is no pulse on Q, E or pin 34-35 on 68B09E. Just nothing... (Well, a Zero with logic probe on q and E)
Zitt - If you, by 'pull', mean physically remove R502 and 509 I'd rather not. They are SMD and I have extremely little experience soldering smd stuff. Or did you mean something else?
barakandl - TY for advice on substitutes.
Before posting this question I searched for a week on various forums and oscillator failure seems rare. But I have a hard time finding any other solution plausable since I have nothing on pin 1.
(Note! - Stern number the pins 1-2-3-4 but standard pin numbering is 1-4-5-8)
Not only am I seeking help, I'd think it might help somebody else in the future...

You can count the pins either way. 1, 4,5, 8 is because they are in a dip-8 package shape only using the outside four pins.

Oscillators are an integrated circuit and a mechanical device in one. Generally robust but they can fail, specially if you over volt the power supply pin. Every now and again, maybe 1 out of 250pcs, I get a bad one right out of the manufacturers packaging that is dead immediately or fails during the burn in test. Maybe it got whacked in shipping, or who knows.... I think the manufacturers get a defect rate in parts per million....

you could just desolder the output pin of the oscillator to isolate it from the rest of the PCB and then check it again. If still nothing coming out of it, its dead.

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

you could just desolder the output pin of the oscillator to isolate it from the rest of the PCB

That's a better solution. Sounds like you'll be desoldering anyway, so socket that puppy if its an 8pin dip.

#12 4 years ago

Thanks for the replies!

Some soldering required, I guess...
I always try to do as little soldering as possible on any board. You just never know what happens with pads etc. Even though I'm fairly good at it...

It's easy to just swap the oscillator, cheap too, but I just put the question here to see if you had any other suggestions before doing soldering.
Always socket if possible...

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from kniven11:

Thanks for the replies!
Some soldering required, I guess...
I always try to do as little soldering as possible on any board. You just never know what happens with pads etc. Even though I'm fairly good at it...
It's easy to just swap the oscillator, cheap too, but I just put the question here to see if you had any other suggestions before doing soldering.
Always socket if possible...

The posts on an oscillator can are pretty thick. I don't know how well it will fit into an IC socket without damaging it.

#14 4 years ago

Did that, been there many times.
Metal oscillators as well as the plastic body Seiko's fit nicely into a machined pin type IC socket. In fact, they make IC sockets specifically for oscillators. Normal legs on one of these oscillators is 0.018 round", same -width- as a normal DIP type IC. The fact that an IC leg is normally 0.01" thick versus the 0.018" doesn't affect a machined pin socket.

The added thickness is, however, on the edge of what a stamped socket can take.
I have also seen 0.025" headers do wondrous and permanent things to IC sockets.

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